Posted on 10/18/2009 1:46:17 AM PDT by Cindy
Note: Photos included.
Note: The following text is a quote:
Friday, October 16, 2009
Nationalists target Calvary Chapel Kaharlyk in Ukraine with firebomb attack
By Peter Wooding Special to ASSIST News Service
KAHARLYK, UKRAINE (ANS) -- The pastor of Calvary Chapel Kaharlyk, just south of Kiev in Ukraine, is thanking God for His protection, after their church building, where his family lives, was hit by a firebomb attack by suspected nationalists.
In the early hours of Wednesday October 14th the attackers sprayed painted on the church wall: “Out with Sects” “ОУН” an abbreviated name for a Ukrainian Nationalist movement.
Pastor Wayne Zschech recalls the horrifying turn of events in his blog: “At around 4 or 5am, after smashing the window with a rock, arsonists threw a molotov cocktail into the children’s ministry room of our church/home.
Fire damage.
“The attack went unnoticed until about 7am when my wife Olya was woken up by the smell of smoke.”
Wayne says it was only after the local fire-brigade arrived in just a matter of minutes that they discovered the location of the fire itself.
“After the fire was extinguished we spent considerable time with militia inspectors responsible for investigating the crime answering questions and writing statements. Later in the day the Head of Police for the Kaharlyk region came in person to get a better handling on the situation. He said that this sort of thing had never happened in our town before and in particular to a religious group.
Fire-bombed window.
“Praise be to God for His protection. The fire and water damage turned out to be minor. Good thing we hadn’t bought new furniture that we’ve been praying about for the children ministry for the last few years. There was some water damage in the basement where the computer class is. We haven’t determined the extent of the damage to the computers yet.
“God is so gracious. Things could have been so much worse. Previous attacks had been limited to breaking windows. This act however is a much more serious statement. It was act designed to destroy (our building is valued at maybe $500,000). Worse still six people were asleep in the building at the time of the attack.
“Our three week-old son, Nikita, was sleeping next to a window, whose protection shield has been jammed open for the last couple weeks. (I fixed that roller today!).
The crime may also be assessed as attempted murder if the room floor boards had ignited instead of slowly smouldering. We may have all died from smoke inhalation.”
Pastor Wayne Zschech is asking people around to world to pray that God would be glorified through all of this: “We pray that the Lord would call people to salvation and that He would build up His body. We rejoice in being chosen worthy to suffer for the sake of our Lord and His Gospel. We do also pray for safety but hold this prayer out with open hands.”
For more details go to: http://wayne.calvarychapelkaharlyk.org
Peter Wooding is a TV, radio and print journalist and media consultant having spent 10 years as news editor with UCB Radio in the UK. He has traveled extensively reporting from countries including Russia, Serbia, Ukraine, Dubai, South Korea, Zambia, Gambia, Mozambique, Croatia, Israel and India. He reports regularly for CBN News, KCBI radio, ASSIST News and Sorted Magazine. Peter and wife Sharon live in North Wales, UK with their three children.
Passionate to see God’s Justice and Mercy impact lives, Peter is director of a new UK ministry Mercy Project International (www.mercyproject.org.uk) to help at-risk young people in Ukraine, Russia, Armenia, Kosovo, the Middle East and beyond. Contact Peter for consultation at woodingpeter@hotmail.com or tel. +44 1244 549167/+44 7500 903067.
** You may republish this story with proper attribution.
more attacks by violent bigoted atheists.
ping
OK. That might be what they call themselves. But their actions indicate they are actually atheists.
Sadly, no. Throughout history, false religion, however genuinely believed by its adherents, has felt the need to attack those preaching a different message. This makes them wrong, but it doesn't make them atheists.
They’re not atheists. They’re Orthodox. They just don’t like American financed sects moving into the Ukraine (which became Christian in 988) and converting people to a novel and heretical form of Christianity which has no historical, ethnic or cultural connection to the Ukraine or its people.
They’re wrong to use violence. They’re not wrong to wish the sect had never shown up to cause problems in the Ukraine.
“They just don’t like American financed sects”
Hmm. That has a feel of justification to it.
“They’re wrong to use violence”
They’re not just wrong, they are DIAMETRICALLY OUT OF PHASE WITH CHRISTIANITY. They are an example of cultural religionists, and have NOTHING TO DO WITH JESUS CHRIST.
If they do not truly and meaningfully repent of this, they ARE going to spend eternity in hell.
There are cultural religionists of every creed. And these are some right here.
And since their website address is being given out by Peter Wooding of CBN, I strongly suspect these are mainline protestants, not a “sect” as you call them, echoing these firebombers.
They were Baptists and they were in country to prosetilize for the Baptist faith.
I asked one of them why they thought that spreading the Baptist creed to a Christian country of the Eastern Orthodox faith was more important than converting atheists of no religion.
Did not get much of a reply.
And here today maybe we have an answer?
They probably believe - as so many Protestants do - that Catholics and Orthodox are going to hell, or are at least are unsaved while remaining Catholics or Orthodox. I’ve encountered this sort of thing several times.
“It is a curiosity. A few years ago I landed in Kiev and while going through passport control /I overheard a group of Americans talking.
They were Baptists and they were in country to prosetilize for the Baptist faith.
I asked one of them why they thought that spreading the Baptist creed to a Christian country of the Eastern Orthodox faith was more important than converting atheists of no religion.
Did not get much of a reply.”
And herein lies the problem. I had visited Kiev too during the Orange Revolution. Went to many religious sites and churches, both Catholic and Orthodox. There was no tension I could see.
But in a country under economic distress and a rising nationalistic pride after decades of oppression against both its national and religious character, you have these dimwitted foreigners who enter and think they will be welcomed.
They won’t be as they are completely insensitive to the history and the struggles of the people in both the past and present. Doing good words will not have the local people overlook this ignorance.
It’s like a festering wound being picked at and being told its for your own good.
Of course there is no justification for any violence. At the same time, it’s obvious people there feel provoked. And these people living in a $500,000 home in the countryside are going to be viewed as foreign interlopers in addition to being insensitive to the suffering the people have suffered under from both religious oppression under communism and the economic struggles today.
There’s also the resistance to foreign imperialism rampant with Russification.
These folks are clueless. And this article neglects to say what foreign creed they are trying to foster too.
Which Christian group in the US takes well to other Christians trying to convert them?
Do Evangelicals welcome Catholics in their community trying to “save” them?
Just wondering.
“Of course there is no justification for any violence. At the same time, it’s obvious people there feel provoked.”
Um. That’s the jihadi argument.
“Do Evangelicals welcome Catholics in their community trying to “save” them?”
Sure. It’s called freedom of religion. People have the right to close the door on Mormons, for example. But the Mormons have every right to go door to door, and not expect violence, in an enlightened society.
No I’m not making an argument on behalf of violence. I’m speaking as someone who was there and understands the history.
The analogy would be if evangelical areas of the US faced foreign oppression similarly (like over decades) had been murdered in great numbers for their faith and being part of that community.
Would they be welcoming to rich Catholics moving in to “save them?”
That’s the context, not the one you mention.
“Of course there is no justification for any violence. At the same time, it’s obvious people there feel provoked.”
“I’m not making an argument on behalf of violence”
No - you’re just giving it moral justification.
You wrote:
“Hypocrite! You believe exactly that of protestants!”
Nope. I have never believed that EVER. I have not now, or have I EVER believed that a Protestant would go to hell or is destined to hell for being a Protestant.
I suggest in the future you document your accusations, rather than embarrass yourself by posting lies.
Well I was invited by a business colleague to attend his evangelical church. As a sign of respect, I attended services and the Sunday school.
Sat in the back quietly as they went through a lesson on Martin Luther. I didn’t say a word when my colleague, originally from Long Island, NY taught the lesson to the children.
Didn’t even interrupt when he called the Catholic Church “an empire.” Later when I asked him about that, he didn’t even remember saying it.
There wasn’t any tell tale signs of empire there and mass murder of the local peoples in the area, nor in the region I can safely suggest either.
““I’m not making an argument on behalf of violence”
No - you’re just giving it moral justification.”
Absolutely not. I am not extending moral justification for violence on anyone for any reason. It’s only historical context that this article failed to mention whatsoever. And based on that, it’s revealing its bias IMHO.
The ugly American formulation is what comes to mind here. Or should I just say you are providing the typical justification for the stereotype of the Ugly American?
See, we can play that game both ways. But that’s entirely not the point. Fortunately, as Americans we don’t have to look at our history of foreign oppression both religious and national. And your replies indicate an ignorance that can’t be changed by even merely recounting it.
It’s the big blind spot of Americans as we are an island unto ourselves. But I’ve made a point to always read about the world past and present. As a result when I speak to people from around the world, and in NYC it’s common, they are usually surprised I don’t have the typical American indifference or ignorance of what’s happening in other places.
Take a trip to Eastern Europe and find out for yourself. Nixon gave the best advice and said travel. And when young, borrow the money and do it if you need to because it’s that worthwhile.
On this, Nixon was right.
“I am not extending moral justification for violence on anyone”
Good. But let me tell you for future reference, this:
“Of course there is no justification for any violence. At the same time, it’s obvious people there feel provoked.”
is exactly what jihadi apologists say.
You wrote:
“I did exactly that.”
No, you did not. You accused me of believing Protestants would go to hell because they were Protestants. And your proof is the following (?):
1) “American financed sects”
So? How does that mean that I believe they’re going to hell?
2) “heretical form of Christianity”
True. And nothing in that says that I believe Protestants will all go to hell just because they’re Protestants.
3) “They’re not wrong to wish the sect had never shown up”
And, again, true - and no where in there did I claim that Protestants will all go to hell just because they’re Protestants.
“By definition if you believe someone to be “heretical” (which “sect” also implies), you believe they are condemned.”
1) A formal belief in heresy may be overlooked by merciful God if that person simply did not know any better.
2) I do not assume people are automatically condemned based upon the sect they belong to unless their beliefs extend to denial and rejection of Christ.
“Surely you know Titus 3:10, which refers to heretics: A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.”
Yes, I know the verse and I know it clearly doesn’t apply here because these sectarians have never once been given an admonition by Church authority. They do not even - most likely - know the Church authority in their city. They’re Protestants. They live and operate outside of all Church authority, don’t recognize it and certainly don’t respect it. Thus, the verse you picked simply doesn’t apply to the situation at hand. Proof text like a Protestant, and you won’t gain any knowledge.
You wrote:
“Hmm. That has a feel of justification to it.”
Nope. It just points out the fact that many of these sects are American financed. Are you afraid of facts?
“They’re not just wrong, they are DIAMETRICALLY OUT OF PHASE WITH CHRISTIANITY. They are an example of cultural religionists, and have NOTHING TO DO WITH JESUS CHRIST.”
So say you. They would say differently. They are doing something wrong, but to deny the truth doesn’t help your case.
“If they do not truly and meaningfully repent of this, they ARE going to spend eternity in hell.”
They might. Then again, how will God deal with those spreading the false Protestant gospel if they don’t repent? I hope He is merciful with all involved because we are all sinners.
“There are cultural religionists of every creed. And these are some right here.”
Again, so say you. I can’t assume that because I do not automatically equate religious fanaticism with “cultural religion” since the two are as often opposed to one another as they are linked..
““Of course there is no justification for any violence. At the same time, it’s obvious people there feel provoked.”
is exactly what jihadi apologists say.”
Well let’s take a look closer at the history of oppression in an area before we use analogies of Muslim jihadists as the language of our communication here.
When you enter into an area as a foreigner and declare the local Christians heretics, that’s what the jihadists say.
They call them infidels, same garbage, different day.
Would you like to take the counter position and suggest that this wouldn’t cause people to be provoked?
Or are you a “heretic” too?
I hope you aren’t a heretic. lol
[Titus 3:10] “doesn’t apply here because these sectarians have never once been given an admonition by Church authority”
Your ability to read whatever you like into the Bible is amazing!
Well. Peace to you vladimir. We disagree on this.
The only reason these terrorists are upset is because people are being converted, and they don’t like that freedom of religion. That is EXACTLY the same as islamists. If you can’t see that, then I just can’t understand you as a person.
“enter into an area as a foreigner and declare the local Christians heretics”
Do you have an example of that? A reference? A link? Anything?
Because if not, it’s just a straw man.
“They probably believe - as so many Protestants do - that Catholics and Orthodox are going to hell, or are at least are unsaved while remaining Catholics or Orthodox. I’ve encountered this sort of thing several times.”
Oh, well then okay.
What you only want to question straw men of one kind, and not your own?
That’s discrimination, and religious discrimination and bigotry.
Does the article lay claim that any specific group claimed responsibility. How do we not know this is an Islamic attack?
Oh, I’m sorry, the blogger refers to “nationalists?” What group is that?
You wrote:
“Your ability to read whatever you like into the Bible is amazing!”
I ability to read the verse AS IT IS WRITTEN is simply better than yours if your post is anything to go by. It says, “A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject..”
That’s what the verse actually SAYS.
“Well. Peace to you vladimir. We disagree on this.”
We do, but it’s more than that. You have insinuated taht people who merely explain what happened and probably why it happened actually approve of the wrongful act. That was wrong on your part. You also insist on foisting your American Protestant values and understanding about pluralism and complete religious liberty on another country, another society, another culture where Protestantism is seen as a foreign and destructive sectarian movement.
“The only reason these terrorists are upset is because people are being converted, and they don’t like that freedom of religion.”
To them it is not about complete freedom as you - in your Protestant mentality - understand it. They see families split up on sectarian lines where that had never happened before. They see strangers coming in and by their very actions denigrating their ancestors, their religion, their culture, their language, their art, music and their sensibilities. Quite frankly they view these johnny-come-lately Protestants are sowers of discord.
“That is EXACTLY the same as islamists.”
In some ways the two might share some similarities, but they are only superficial at best. What about those Protestants who burned out Catholics in the 19th century right here in America? Were they really the same as Islamists? According to you, they had to be.
“If you can’t see that, then I just can’t understand you as a person.”
What you can’t understand is how a Christian community which has been around for over 1000 years could resent foreigners, strangers, telling them they aren’t really Christians and are going to hell just because they don’t believe as American Baptists do. I, on the other hand, understand everyone involved. I understand the Baptists - but I disagree with them. I understand the Orthodox - but I disagree with what they did. I even understand you - but I disagree with you claiming I believed something I do not and never said. There is much you do not understand. And apparently, you’re not interested in learning either.
That should give some of the prosletizers an idea, but maybe not.
When the Ukrainians decided to re-build the church ofSt.Mikhail (destroyed by Stalin) they sent for donations fromtheUkrainian diaspora. They got the thing backup in three years and thisisnot the little brown church in the dell, it's big.
Yes you are a slanderer because of your religion.
Me: “more attacks by violent bigoted atheists”
You: “I see your religion requires you to slander atheists. Yes you are a slanderer because of your religion.”
The “more” I was thinking of was in relation to a previous story of atheist Chinese attacking and destroying a Christian church in China. I and others thought then how interesting it is that Christians get slandered, but when the wheels hit the road, it’s the atheists who are the violent bigots.
I still maintain that these people must not believe in God. They may attend some place of worship, but they clearly do not believe in God. Every INCH of Christian scripture is against this attack.
But yes I see now that they’re not “officially” atheists. I wouldn’t have dreamt for a second that they would consider themselves Christian! We live & learn I suppose.
The “your religion requires you” thrust of your comment came purely from you though, not me.
You wrote:
“Yes, there was justification.”
Not from me there wasn’t. And I think that’s why you don’t even bother to try to post any evidence of such - because there isn’t any.
“And there is the justification again.”
Nope. None at all. I just pointed out that you seem completely ignorant about the resentment Bigotted Protestants cause when they treat Christians as if they were not Christians.
“And again I ask what I asked the other “roman” username...”
Other “roman” username? What does that even mean?
“...when he said that, do you have any evidence that they are “telling them they aren’t really Christians and are going to hell”? No, you don’t.”
Since the sect in question is a part of Calvary Chapel and even links to Calvary Chapel’s webpage as an explanation of their beliefs, yes, that in itself means that the group does not mean the Orthodox are saved and are going to hell. Chuck Smith isn’t known by Catholics or Orthodox as being either friendly or fair to the Catholic Church or the Orthodox. If the chapel in question follows those beliefs - and it must because that’s what they link to - then, yeah, that’s evidence.
“You simply believe that their mere existence implies that your religion is wrong.”
No. I simply believe that they believe what they teach. Calvary Chapel is not known for believing that Catholics doing and believing what Catholics do will go to heaven. I have no doubt his beliefs are the same for the Orthodox. Since the chapel in question admits following Calvary Chapel’s beliefs, then that means they must teach the same things.
“That’s exactly the mindset of the jihadists. Get over it. Other people have a different faith to yours. And yes, they want to share that faith. It’s called freedom of religion.”
No. It’s called hubris.
“We excoriate islamist countries for having the mindset you have.”
No, we do not. I do not have the mindset which you falsely attribute to me. The obvious fact that it is false is shown by the fact that you have failed utterly to document it even indirectly. You even denied the clear meaning of scripture to try and claim I have the mindset I do not.
“They would not be upset unless people were freely choosing protestantism in Ukraine. What they don’t like is that free choice, so they TRIED TO BURN THEM.”
No. What they don’t like is strangers introducing sectarianiam into their otherwise culturally and religiously traditional society. They don’t like the fact that these sects are breaking up families and causing turmoil. They also don’t like the hubris they bring with them.
“And for you to be on Free Republic using “American” as a derogatory term to bolster your argument: it’s not just that they’re baptists, but they’re “American Baptists”, using the standard anti-American mindset that is common in Europe to support your case, I find utterly disgusting.”
Who cares what you find disgusting? They’re UKRAINIANS being told by American sponsored sectarians that their ancient faith is not good enough. They are told their music, art, and so forth just aren’t good enough, no, no, no, only AMERICAN style Protestantism is true Christianity. If you don’t see a problem with that, then you have bigger issues to resolve than whatever makes you “disgusted”.
I don’t confuse Christianity and America. I love both, but in the end I choose to serve ONE. I am a Christian FIRST. As much as I love America, she comes a distant second to Christ. If you put America before Christ, so be it, but as for me and my household we will serve the Lord.
Can you at least summon up enough will power to explain this:
“And again I ask what I asked the other “roman” username...”
What do you mean by ‘”roman” username’?
“When the Ukrainians decided to re-build the church ofSt.Mikhail (destroyed by Stalin) they sent for donations fromtheUkrainian diaspora. They got the thing backup in three years and thisisnot the little brown church in the dell, it’s big.”
Actually, I stayed in the shadow of the rebuilt St. Michaels. In that square they have monuments also to the victims of Stalin’s man made famine. I walked past there almost every day when I was there.
The pictures of the church are really great. And I remember looking on its beauty both during the day and at night. There was something very powerful about it. In fact I just replaced my background photo from Italy’s World Cup victory to a photo of St. Michael’s church just a few days ago.
The scale of the church as you say is very large. And it’s within eyesight of the most famous church St. Sophia.
Did not know about the fundraising but that’s impressive. Times are tough there for a lot of people. Perhaps this is a symbol of Christian faith.
I am not the other “user” name you designate. The name is ROMANESQ as in romanesque art.
According to that blog, windows were earlier broker by anarchists.
My guess is that they are not the groups breaking things from Seattle and most recently Pittsburgh.
After decades of communism, there are plenty of leftists around.
“After decades of communism, there are plenty of leftists around”
atheist leftists - very possibly. Ukraine is still highly manipulated by Russian influences. Russia clearly considers Ukraine their property.
I always light candles to loved ones when I am there.
Too, the chanting of the liturgy by the monksis something.
The Church of St. Sophia is worth the trip alone. A strange thing to walk about a so beautiful church modeled after the Haigha Sophia in Constantinople,built by the Byzantine people and one thousand years old.
Lighten-up Francis.
“Lighten-up Francis.”
No thanks, missy. We’ve had exactly these discussions about islamic terrorists. I wouldn’t tolerate justification of them, and I don’t of these.
Well the good news is that the highest ranking police chief came and said it’s an isolated incident. Thankfully, no one was harmed.
When the real trouble starts, it’s when the communists are fully in control. Ukraine suffered greatly and their churches did as well. In fact, the underground Church was the only resistance to communism for a long time. And the religious there suffered in great numbers for faith.
Americans need to be concerned about liberty at peril here.
When you find tolerance of terrorism on a thread on Eastern Europe, let me know.
Ukraine suffered for its religious faith more than most folks can imagine. Read up on some of the history against communism and you will understand how the religious there were the only thing keeping the sense of freedom and hope alive.
Imagine doing that for decades.
“The Church of St. Sophia is worth the trip alone. A strange thing to walk about a so beautiful church modeled after the Haigha Sophia in Constantinople,built by the Byzantine people and one thousand years old.”
That’s absolutely correct. It gives you a real sense of history. Both churches are within close walking distance of each other. Could see both from the balcony of where I stayed in Kiev.
More than once I stood in the cool winter air looking out over both with a cigar and thinking about the depths of that historical faith. It made me think greatly about my own.
If you know the suffering of religious Christians in Ukraine, it helps you to think about how valuable freedom truly is and when I came back to the US, I was even more grateful than usual after being away.
Let’s protect our Constitution. Always.
“Ukraine suffered for its religious faith more than most folks can imagine”
Sure, and I used to have a lot of respect for that until I find no one with that slavic background is standing up for these Christian victims of terrorism and would rather propagandize and slander them, calling them unchristian and worse, and give the terrorists justification.
I’ve got to be honest with you I’m not happy about that. I’m actually pretty disgusted by that. Without trying to change anyone’s mind about it, I’m just telling you that I personally am not happy by what I have seen on this thread.
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