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Arguing pilots fly 150 miles past runway
The Guardian ^ | 23 October 2009 | Haroon Siddique

Posted on 10/23/2009 4:53:30 AM PDT by Erik Latranyi

Many a person has missed their stop on a bus or train at one time or another because they were engrossed in a weighty conversation or a book.

But when the pilots of Northwest Airlines flight 188 became distracted it had more serious consequences as they overflew their Minneapolis destination by 150 miles.

"They were in a heated discussion over airline policy and they lost situational awareness," the US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) explained.

When the pilots got their "situational awareness" back they turned the Airbus A320 around and landed it safely on Wednesday evening, apparently without any of the 144 passengers realising they had taken a roundabout route.

(Excerpt) Read more at guardian.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: aerospace; airlines; flight118; northwest; nwa; oops; pilots
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Dumb, dumb, dumb
1 posted on 10/23/2009 4:53:31 AM PDT by Erik Latranyi
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To: Erik Latranyi

10 bucks says they were sleeping.


2 posted on 10/23/2009 4:55:03 AM PDT by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: Erik Latranyi

Dumb and dumber.


3 posted on 10/23/2009 4:57:17 AM PDT by Infidel Heather (In God I trust, not the Government.)
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To: P8riot
10 bucks says they were sleeping.

Their "heated discussion over airline policy" was all in ZZZZZs

4 posted on 10/23/2009 4:57:43 AM PDT by Dan(9698)
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To: Erik Latranyi

Were the pilot and co-pilot married?

I know I have missed an off ramp or two while trying not to argue with the wife.


5 posted on 10/23/2009 4:57:45 AM PDT by Jet Jaguar (A mob of one.)
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To: Jet Jaguar

Sounds like the ‘’air bags’’ were working overtime(scene from Airport)


6 posted on 10/23/2009 4:59:02 AM PDT by shadeaud ("If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten." -- George Carlin)
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To: Erik Latranyi

They can kiss their piloting career goodbye.


7 posted on 10/23/2009 5:04:33 AM PDT by Dacula (Evil succeeds when good men do nothing. Lets do something.)
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To: Dacula

Those 99 dollar fares don’t buy much nowadays!


8 posted on 10/23/2009 5:06:17 AM PDT by Dr. Ursus
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To: Dacula
They can kiss their piloting career goodbye.

They will be continuing the argument on the unemployment line.

9 posted on 10/23/2009 5:06:56 AM PDT by exit82 (Sarah Palin is President No. 45. Get behind her, GOP, or get out of the way.)
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To: P8riot

The cockpit voice recorder tells all and would have been pulled immediately so I’m giving this story credibility. NW pilots are some of the most militant in the industry and with Delta running the show now I’m sure there’s lots to “discuss” in the cockpit. Flying the plane? Nah, not so much of a priority.


10 posted on 10/23/2009 5:07:57 AM PDT by saganite
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To: Erik Latranyi
Federal officials are investigating whether pilot fatigue might have played a role, but an NTSB spokesman, Keith Holloway, said the idea that the crew may have fallen asleep was "speculative".

I often has a loss of "situational awareness" after supper while watching the TV, but at least I'm not piloting a jet aircraft.

11 posted on 10/23/2009 5:10:42 AM PDT by 6SJ7 (atlasShruggedInd: ON)
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To: Erik Latranyi

There was a significant problem at the Minneapolis airport on Tuesday, as most flights were delayed.

Perhaps they were expecting a delay in landing on time ....


12 posted on 10/23/2009 5:11:09 AM PDT by ADSUM (Democracy works when citizens get involved and keep government honest.)
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To: Erik Latranyi
"they lost situational awareness"

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

13 posted on 10/23/2009 5:11:25 AM PDT by Delta 21 (If you cant tell if I'm being sarcastic...maybe I'm not.)
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To: Erik Latranyi

The friendly skies are so safe...


14 posted on 10/23/2009 5:14:21 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Erik Latranyi

I once went on business trip with a guy who was a private pilot and brought along a hand held GPS (which constantly gave the wrong altitude in a pressurized cabin because is believed the barometric altimeter more than the GPS). They’re lucky they didn’t have someone like that on board.


15 posted on 10/23/2009 5:14:27 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (The People have abdicated our duties; ... and anxiously hope for just two things: bread and circuses)
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets
...which constantly gave the wrong altitude in a pressurized cabin because is believed the barometric altimeter more than the GPS)."

????

16 posted on 10/23/2009 5:30:07 AM PDT by zipper
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To: Erik Latranyi

They’ve already admitted how it happened... the crew was engaged in a “heated discussion over airline policy” and lost situational awareness.
http://www.twincities.com/topstories/ci_13619032?nclick_check=1


17 posted on 10/23/2009 5:30:26 AM PDT by aviator (Armored Pest Control)
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To: Erik Latranyi

must be democrats


18 posted on 10/23/2009 5:47:46 AM PDT by dalebert
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To: zipper

I believe he’s saying that his friend has a GPS for small private plane use that provides altitude data, and chooses from an internal barometric pressure gauge and altitude readings from satellite data, and that the device uses the pressure as the default preference. This would, of course, be rendered fatally stupid in a pressurized cabin.


19 posted on 10/23/2009 5:49:50 AM PDT by Humble Servant (see y'all in the Gulag.)
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To: P8riot

Them sleeping is what is being investigated this morning. A flight attendant had to tell them they were past their destination.


20 posted on 10/23/2009 5:53:34 AM PDT by doodad
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To: Erik Latranyi
Drunk Airline Pilot

Click Here To View

21 posted on 10/23/2009 5:57:58 AM PDT by Boston Blackie
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To: doodad
I don't think that it's possible to be so distracted as to miss Minneapolis Center calling them every thirty seconds on the frequency that they were on, the last two they were on, the guard channel and whatever else they could think of. Not to mention the autopilot warning about missing a waypoint.

If they were that distracted, maybe they'd be better off in a job that allows for total loss of awareness, like lawn jockey (if that't racist, then roaming gnome).

22 posted on 10/23/2009 6:01:00 AM PDT by par4 (Proud new member of the racist corps)
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To: saganite

You might be on something. Are u in MBS?


23 posted on 10/23/2009 6:11:15 AM PDT by JamesA (Life is a adventure and RANGERS still lead the way.)
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To: Delta 21

Hey, way to Go, nAvY!


24 posted on 10/23/2009 6:23:00 AM PDT by Erasmus (Joyfully speculating in absence of hard data since 1998.)
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To: Erik Latranyi

“”They were in a heated discussion over airline policy and they lost situational awareness,”

Whoever can utter BS like that; has a great future making infomercials.

They were sleeping.


25 posted on 10/23/2009 6:27:31 AM PDT by HereInTheHeartland (Just say no to Soylent Green health care)
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To: JamesA
This is a first for me. Your post AND your tagline both have spelling errors (assuming you meant "you might be onto something").
26 posted on 10/23/2009 6:32:57 AM PDT by Rocky (OBAMA: Succeeding where bin Laden failed.)
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To: Erik Latranyi

I guess the scrambling Canadian fighter planes gave them their first clue?


27 posted on 10/23/2009 6:37:41 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: JamesA

MBS? Obviously if I have to ask what it is I’m not in it.


28 posted on 10/23/2009 6:38:56 AM PDT by saganite
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To: Erik Latranyi; Tijeras_Slim; FireTrack; Pukin Dog; citabria; B Knotts; kilowhskey; cyphergirl; ...

As a side note:

Aviation ping.

Flight School Bills White House, DNC for Revenue Lost to TFR

October 22, 2009 — Temporary flight restrictions (TFRs) due to the movement of the President of the United States or other high-level officials have become a common disruption to general aviation since 9/11. TFRs essentially halt many general aviation activities, like flight training, but GA businesses affected by the shutdowns haven’t often attempted to collect their lost revenue. When Oakland Flyers, a flight school based at Oakland International Airport, had to cease operations for 17 hours during last week’s visit to the Bay Area by President Obama to attend a fundraiser, owner Jim Gray decided to invoice the White House and the Democratic National Committee, (DNC) which hosted the event, in attempt to collect lost revenue.

“We invoiced lost revenue for the aircraft rental and for the flight instructors which are paid independently,” Gray said. “The flight instructors lost money on this deal as well. They get paid by the students directly. We put together an invoice for both items.”

The invoice totaled $2,565 for 10 canceled flights, which had been scheduled from late afternoon on October 15 until 10 a.m. the next day. Even though the airport’s location is clear across San Francisco Bay from the president’s physical location in downtown San Francisco, it was still inside the 10-mile no-fly ring, meaning all training flights were grounded during the TFR. Gray feels it’s not fair for his business to be shut down for an extended period of time due to a partisan function, as opposed to official government business, which a reason he would more readily accept. He also takes issue with the fact that airline and cargo operations were allowed to continue operations because they operate under instrument flight rules.

Reaction in the GA community has been very supportive according to the numerous e-mails Gray has received from across the country. “There are flight schools that have also been affected by these kinds of things,” Gray said. “Pilots are thinking that these TFRs are punitive to general aviation for really no valid reason. By doing this (sending the invoice), maybe it will raise some attention for everybody to put in their two cents and we’ll see what happens.”

Gray says the DNC did contact the flight school to inquire about the dollar amount of the invoice, but he has not personally spoken to anyone. The DNC did not return calls to EAA.org regarding this story.


29 posted on 10/23/2009 6:39:39 AM PDT by KeyLargo
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To: Humble Servant

I never heard of a handheld GPS with a built-in barometric altimeter.

But they are available, and I’m sure it would come in handy for measuring cabin altitude.

http://www.yenra.com/handheld-gps/


30 posted on 10/23/2009 6:41:49 AM PDT by zipper
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To: P8riot

“10 bucks says they were sleeping.”

A pilot being interviewed on Fox and Friends now is alluding to that. It happens. Quite scary.


31 posted on 10/23/2009 6:49:33 AM PDT by MayflowerMadam (POWER TO THE PEOPLE)
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To: P8riot

32 posted on 10/23/2009 6:51:22 AM PDT by KeyLargo
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To: Delta 21

LOL!!!


33 posted on 10/23/2009 6:51:40 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: Erik Latranyi

Did the passengers get the extra 300 frequent flyer miles?


34 posted on 10/23/2009 6:51:44 AM PDT by xone
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To: Boston Blackie

back when grown men looked male and grown and were funny too


35 posted on 10/23/2009 6:54:00 AM PDT by wardaddy
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To: saganite
Been there, watched this! Yes, in the old days of three man cockpits . . . every once in a while the ones in the front seats would have a disagreement. Meanwhile the panel puppy watched and listened.

It is amazing to watch the littlest thing totally, I mean totally, become the center of focus to the exclusion of everything else.

Meanwhile, there you are sailing along at Flight O-My-God at the speed-of-heat wondering when the argument will stop!

36 posted on 10/23/2009 6:56:00 AM PDT by lowbuck (The Blue Card (American passport): Don't leave home without it!!)
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To: aviator
They’ve already admitted how it happened... the crew was engaged in a “heated discussion over airline policy” and lost situational awareness.

Negative. I'm not buying that. There would be too many radio calls and navigation cues to miss...if they were awake.

37 posted on 10/23/2009 6:57:42 AM PDT by TankerKC (I have a healthy respect for earned, properly exercised, authority.)
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To: P8riot

I wouldn’t take that bet. Regardless, they are in deep doo doo.


38 posted on 10/23/2009 7:03:53 AM PDT by wita
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To: saganite
MBS?

Airport code for Saginaw MI.

39 posted on 10/23/2009 7:08:56 AM PDT by TankerKC (I have a healthy respect for earned, properly exercised, authority.)
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To: Jet Jaguar

I know I have missed an off ramp or two while trying not to argue with the wife.

Permission to steal this line?


40 posted on 10/23/2009 7:09:53 AM PDT by super7man
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To: super7man

Take it.


41 posted on 10/23/2009 7:11:59 AM PDT by Jet Jaguar (A mob of one.)
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To: lowbuck

Right on

Math question - If airplane “A” is flying at 490 KIAS, how many minutes will it take to fly 150 miles?

A) Your mother wears boots
B) The dog ate my homework
C) Less than 20 minutes
D) I don’t “do” math, try someone else....

I can see two boneheads arguing for 20 minutes. I do find it hard to understand how they missed so many radio calls.

In any case, their flying days are over. Too many other qualifed pilots that want that job.....


42 posted on 10/23/2009 8:10:55 AM PDT by ASOC (Cave quid dicis, quando, et cui)
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To: ASOC
Nice quiz!!

But, in one instance I watched the argument go for a full
“leg” (about 2 hours block time).

After landing, it continued while we exchanged pax (on a hard stand).

Then it continued as we taxied out. After take-off the tower politely said “Goodbye XXX, next time please ask for takeoff clearnce”. A lot of silence in the cockpit.

True story, but, it happened in a part of the world that was far, far away from the FAA.

No damage, no foul. s/off

43 posted on 10/23/2009 8:52:56 AM PDT by lowbuck (The Blue Card (American passport): Don't leave home without it!!)
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To: zipper

It was a little hand held GPS unit for use by private pilots in unpressurized cabins. It incorporated a barometric altimeter, and the capability for the pilot to input a local reference altitude to account for variations in surface air pressure. Normally pilots can adjust their cabin altimeters to indicated the known altitude of the runway before take off to account for changes in local barometric pressure. Airliners are pressurized to about 8000 ft., which means that when you are flying at 30,000 feet a barometric altimeter inside the cabin with you will indicate 8000 ft.


44 posted on 10/23/2009 9:09:45 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (The People have abdicated our duties; ... and anxiously hope for just two things: bread and circuses)
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To: ASOC

Apparently, the pilots were off the air ( not responding to any tower ) for well over an hour while covering at least 600 miles.

Why F 16 were not scrambled is interesting ?


45 posted on 10/23/2009 10:52:27 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76

They fell asleep, all veteran pilots know that’s exactly what happened.


46 posted on 10/23/2009 10:53:22 AM PDT by Scythian
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To: Scythian

Lucky that they fell asleep over Wisconsin with their transponders on so that the tower could re-route other traffic.

Imagine if they were approaching Philly, then flew into NYC air space asleep for 600 miles.


47 posted on 10/23/2009 11:03:47 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: lowbuck
“Goodbye XXX, next time please ask for takeoff clearnce”.

Yikes, I don't think tower controllers should be polite about that sort of thing. Did this happen before or after Tenerife?

48 posted on 10/23/2009 11:16:33 AM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: TankerKC

That’s their story and they are sticking to it! (sarcasm)


49 posted on 10/23/2009 11:18:56 AM PDT by aviator (Armored Pest Control)
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To: Scythian

If they fell asleep they’re in even bigger trouble, because they told investigators they were having a heated discussion, and the voice recorder will tell the truth very quickly. I really doubt they were asleep, because they were certainly wide awake by the time they were explaining things to investigators on the ground, and they would have realized that any story they gave would be compared to the voice recorder.


50 posted on 10/23/2009 11:21:09 AM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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