F-16s 'Prepared' to Shoot Down Errant Northwest Flight

ABC ^ | 10/28/09 | BRIAN ROSS and JUSTIN GRANT

[pallis]

That’s interesting. I haven’t flown anywhere in twenty years or more, so I’m not up with the rules. I used to work construction jobs that required long, boring flights to faraway places, but in those days Gates was only dreaming of MS DOS, and I didn’t know what the Internet was.

[jwparkerjr]

re: how long does it take to go 150 miles?

The 150 miles represents only how far they overflew their destination. They were out of radio contact for a considerable length of time before reaching their destination.

There is absolutely no hype involved here. Having an airliner our of contact for over an hour with no indication of what’s going on is as serious as it gets. The fact they flew into someone else’s airspace and ATC had to move other aircraft to keep them clear of traffic is just as bad.

For all anyone on the ground knew the crew was dead and the plane would continue on, being flown by the autopilot, until it ran out of fuel and crashed.

If they flew 150 miles beyond their destination then they would have had to fly another 150 miles to get back to it, plus the space required for a 180 degree turn and to get back on course.

A major problem could have been that in today’s budget conscious world of airline operation they would only enough fuel on board to reach their destination plus enough to get to their designated alternate airport and then less than an hour’s worth of fuel after that. That’s cutting it pretty close if they don’t manage to contact the crew and determine what’s going on.

To those who fly up in that area and depend on ATC and the rules of IFR flight there is nothing, absolutely nothing hyped about this.

[DoughtyOne]

Up thread I mentioned that the controller did not get acknowledgment of an instruction to change to a new radio frequency at hand off. It was his duty to continue to make the instruction until he did get an acknowledgment.

Subsequent attempts to contact the aircraft were inhibited due to the aircraft being on the wrong frequency.

To you and I it occurs that the aircraft pilots should have expected that frequency change. I don’t know why that change was not made or pursued. I don’t know why the controller didn’t continue until he got an acknowledgment. I believe the record shows he made one attempt, and didn’t follow up.

When listening to these radio interviews it’s sometimes easy to get things somewhat mixed up, or morph what was said to the point of inaccuracy, but I believe this is an accurate depiction of how this issue was addressed.

[IYAS9YAS]

Yes, if you’re on the right radio frequency.

I meant as a passenger. I'm always aware of times when I fly, probably because I always seem to have to make a connecting flight. I'm also very aware of when we prep for descent, which should occur about 20 minutes out.

Since there was no descent prep at 20 minutes out, and they kept flying an additional 20 minutes beyond the destination, that is 40 minutes for someone to raise the question - certainly someone should have noticed.

[nikos1121]

hahahaha

[jwparkerjr]

re: It would have to be a threat to something on the ground

Like knowing it was running low and fuel and would be crashing into a populated area. That would be a tough call, whether to bring it down at a certain spot or trust to luck that it would not hit something important after losing power.

I see nothing wrong with the headline. The pilots were on the runway ready to go, and were fully aware they could be called on to down the aircraft. Give that order they would have not choice but to follow it. That to me is on the runway, ready to shoot down the plane.

[nikos1121]

At first I thought that NORAD responded in a timely matter, but it looks like now that they were very very slow to respond.

[Vinnie]

..than I am of dating Cindy Crawford.

Watch out for that wart on her face, scratched me all up. :)

[nikos1121]

Won’t surprise me to have Gibbs take a prearranged question, so he can say that the WH was notified and on top of the situation the whole time. I mean anything to get their dismal poll numbers better.

[nikos1121]

20 minutes

[nikos1121]

So what happened?

[jwparkerjr]

re: if they were focusing on their jobs the way they’re supposed to be

They have probably made that trip dozens of times, maybe even more. They have a routine from take off to landing. They know when they have to be finished collecting trays and things from the cabin. When they finished that and still flew on without hearing anything from the cockpit I would have thought that would be a hint that all was not well!

[Shellback Chuck]

Not completely true. A poorly shielded and cheap electronic device can interfere with an aircraft electrical system. Understandably the circumstances are very rare and usually unlikely, however working as a technician for over 20 years (with a good portion of that in avionics) I have seen it happen.
A more likely situation though is the aircraft’s transmitters and radar systems causing problems with your consumer electronics.

[Beloved Levinite]

What, she’s not worthy of a “Grand Slam?” ;)

[True Republican Patriot]

NOPE!! Not in this case! Shucks, they’ll just go out and write a book and get movie rights for a few million... Hollywood will LOVE this story............

[Taffini]

after reading your post I hope they never fly again ...it is enough to make your hair stand on end.

[DoughtyOne]

There is a dynamic that always accompanies these incidents.  The media needs to hype the story so it will get a lot of play.  They provide what sounds like entirely rational reports and questions, and then the public goes postal.

There are times when that postal vision is good.  There are also times when certain extenuating circumstances reveal that the problem wasn't what it was first hyped up to be, or wasn't nearly as problematic that it was first thought to be.

I sometimes step in to ask folks to realize there are other factors to take into consideration.  I do this for balance.  I don't do it to totally exhonerate people who do things that are wrong.  I don't like media driven pack mentality.

I don't totally disagree with you.  I still think you're going too far in your assessment here.

The 150 miles represents only how far they overflew their destination. They were out of radio contact for a considerable length of time before reaching their destination.

Yes they were.  There was a frequency issue that involved the air traffic controller that made a hand-off.  A new frequency directive was missed.  The controller didn't follow up.  Did a pilot go to the restroom and miss that instruction?  Was a flight attendent talking to the remaining pilot on the com line so he missed the instruction?  Why didn't the controller try again?  He is supposed to.  Why didn't the pilots realize they hadn't gotten a new frequency?  They should have.  I'd like some answers to this.  It is the reason why the pilots were out of contact for an hour.

There is absolutely no hype involved here. Having an airliner our of contact for over an hour with no indication of what’s going on is as serious as it gets. The fact they flew into someone else’s airspace and ATC had to move other aircraft to keep them clear of traffic is just as bad.

Flying beyond your destination by fifteen minutes is hardly as serious as it gets.  Being out of contact can be a procedural error, something that happens once in a while.  What we have here are several lapses that contributed to the aircraft traveling beyond the intended destination by 150 miles.  While I do think that is objectionable, when the explanations start coming in, it works out not to be quite the problem it was blown up to be.

For all anyone on the ground knew the crew was dead and the plane would continue on, being flown by the autopilot, until it ran out of fuel and crashed.

We're talking about a fifteen to twenty minute overshoot of the destination.  To a person like you and I that sounds terrible.  The reality of it is that this wasn't quite what it was blown out to be.  These guys were not getting their radio contacts due to human error.  They were involved with something, I don't quite know what yet, but they were also relying on voice communication that wasn't coming due to the frequency variation.  Are they culpable, or even the major problem, I believe them to be.  I am still not convinced these guys are the big four eyed greasy swamp monsters they are being made out to be.

If they flew 150 miles beyond their destination then they would have had to fly another 150 miles to get back to it, plus the space required for a 180 degree turn and to get back on course.

They are not the only aircraft up there, but your supposition is that the air is so full of aircraft that it was unsafe for them to have to turn and return.  I don't believe that to be the case.  I'll bet you'd be surprised at the distances aircraft travel out of the way when they have to old for moments in time over a busy airport.  It doesn't take long to go what seems to us to be vast distances.

A major problem could have been that in today’s budget conscious world of airline operation they would only enough fuel on board to reach their destination plus enough to get to their designated alternate airport and then less than an hour’s worth of fuel after that. That’s cutting it pretty close if they don’t manage to contact the crew and determine what’s going on.

I"m not in favor of any aircraft going off course or overshooting.  I do however want to keep things in perspective.  This aircraft returned to the proper destination without secondary incident.  There weren't any near misses.  The aircraft wasn't in danger of crashing.  Nobody was injured.  This aircraft remained at altitude.  It wasn't on a course to impact an object on the ground.  We are told the military was at the ready, but that's a rather vague comment.  We're told they're always at the ready.

To those who fly up in that area and depend on ATC and the rules of IFR flight there is nothing, absolutely nothing hyped about this.

Read this sentence of yours.  My second paragraph up makes some interesting observations.  After reading them, don't you think this sentence of yours here is over the top?

What happened was interesting.  I find it problematic.  I still think it's more of something to spur some reviews of polices vs something that was a major breach in security.

I do not agree that absolutely nothing about this was hyped.

[Moe Tzadik]

"Something is really fishy about this though."

I would say so. It doesn't pass the smell test.

"Whoa, dude, sorry, the entire flight crew and cabin crew just completely spaced out, lost all sense of time, and forget to initiate descent for 45 minutes."

[DoughtyOne]

I don’t disagree with that. It is rather strange that forty minutes could go by. I’m like you. I have my eye on the clock. I’m always thinking, we’re 17 minutes from the ground or some such. The Jet Blue screens give you air speed and location. On one of those flights you could have seen that you had passed your destination. I’d like to see a pilot try that one on for size. :-)

[DoughtyOne]

Thanks Nikos. I think that’s about right.