Posted on 10/29/2009 9:14:09 AM PDT by jazusamo
The Federal Aviation Administration's decision to revoke the licenses of the pilots of the Northwest jetliner that lost radio contact with controllers last week threatens to disrupt voluntary safety reporting programs used by pilots, according to industry officials and aviation-safety experts.
Immediately after FAA regulators on Tuesday revoked the licenses of both pilots aboard Northwest Flight 188, leaders of the largest U.S. pilot union began complaining and planning a response, these officials said.
Officials of the Air Line Pilots Association decided on Wednesday that the government's enforcement move violated the spirit, and probably the letter, of voluntary incident reporting and data-sharing arrangements in place at Northwest parent Delta Air Lines Inc. and other airlines.
FAA officials have rejected such claims, asserting that voluntary disclosure programs were never meant to cover intentional violations such as those committed by the Northwest cockpit crew.
Designed to foster pilot-airline cooperation on safety initiatives, voluntary incident reporting programs are widely regarded as powerful tools to help airlines, pilots and government regulators, identify and deal with budding safety hazards.
Each carrier has set up its own detailed procedures allowing pilots to confidentially disclose all types of safety lapses and mistakes, without fear of punishment from airline management or government enforcement officials.
A special review committee -- usually consisting of pilots, management and FAA representatives -- is authorized to analyze the data, interview the pilots and then determine if the incident qualifies as a legitimate voluntary disclosure event.
When it comes to Flight 188, the union contends the mandatory committee review procedure was never followed and the FAA jumped the gun by meting out punishment to pilots who voluntarily and in good faith answered questions from investigators. The incident review committee is scheduled to meet Thursday, according to two people familiar with the matter.
(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...
Any commercial pilots here who might comment on this?
It looks to me like they're complaining about a lack of due process, which may be a legitimate complaint. The result may end up the same, but they're entitled to due process like anyone else, especially if there are specific agreements in place with the FAA.
Good point, I thought about that but don’t know what the powers of the FAA are in a case like this.
Each carrier has set up its own detailed procedures allowing pilots to confidentially disclose all types of safety lapses and mistakes, without fear of punishment from airline management or government enforcement officials.
What the union appears to be saying is that a heavy-handed approach to this kind of incident by the FAA will ultimately serve as an incentive for pilots and airlines NOT to report incidents like this in the future. I don't know what the terms of the labor agreement are, so I'm not sure if their argument is sound on that basis.
The self reporting system is intended for minor infractions. A flight crew deviating from its flight plan for 150 miles hardly represents the spirit of that agreement. All traffic in the area was put at risk.
I would expect to lose my privileges if I did this in a single pilot situation, much less a 2 pilot professional crew.
I dunno about “due process” but it sounds like the pilots admitted to sufficient facts to have their tickets pulled. Should have gone with the “radio failure” alibi. No one would believe that either, but at least it puts the FAA in the position of proving a negative.
Agreed.
maybe jimmy bikeshorts (Oberstar) can give them a special union exemption..
That’s kind of the way I look at it but am not familiar with FAA rules of union agreements.
Hi, I was a C210N Turbo driver too.
Union agreements have NOTHING to do with fundamental airspace safety. I don’t want to share the air with these two deadbeats.
Quite possibly true, but it appears that the due process in question is for exactly this situation, where the pilots voluntarily and honestly discuss what happened. There is a process for determining whether their admissions fall under the exemption/immunity for self-reporting. They may very well not, but it appears that they are at least entitled to that process before enforcement action takes place.
The volunteer reporting mechanism clearly spells out some things that pilots have done that they are not immune from by reporting the incident. Such as: anything criminal or resulting in an accident. Infractions of FAA rules, if reported (you have a short period after the incident, like 24 hours or some-such) within the time window, are not enforceable.
It seems they should have been suspended, but their certificates remaining in place until a determination is made about what happened up there.
BTW, what did happen up there? Has anyone heard anything yet? Anything at all?...
It seems like the FAA are the one’s who are out of communication.
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The FAA is not required to allow a “voluntary reporting” board to meet before it decides what it will do. The pilot’s ticket is authorized by the FAA and the FAA alone. if they want to pull you ticket then you don’t fly.
“The union....” that says it all. I am so tired of unions whining and complaining and then going on strike so their ‘leadership’ group can have more money. Never do they strike for passenger safety, patient concerns, students inprovements.....it is always for money and BENEFITS.
For those of us who work hard and get tired of the yammering, just once we would like to see the union do the right thing
Roger that
“Has anyone heard anything yet?”
The official statement is they were working on their laptops. I personally think they were both asleep and the laptop is a coverup for public consumption.
You do not understand this system at all. This is intended for near misses and things of that sort. These pilots were so far out of line not only for the FAA requirements but their company rules and regs it is not even funny.
From what I’ve read and seen on local news because the copilot lives in Salem, OR is that they were on their private laptops discussing scheduling or something to that effect.
Controllers tried to raise them by several different means and couldn’t contact them, a flight attendant finally got their attention on the intercom and they had flown 150 miles past their destination.
Don’t know if that’s all true because it came from the enemedia.
Oh please these pilots DID NOT voluntarily ‘discuss’ what happened. They LIED through their teeth with several different stories. We don’t even know if the last one was the true one ——even if it is the one they are sticking to.
They were ENTITLED to NADA.
First story out ( what they told the passengers in flight as they made the turn around to go back to the airport just missed) was that there was a disagreement between the pilot and co about company policy.
I personally agree with you but I doubt we’ll ever know for sure.
This has been a banner week for union credibility.
It would appear to me that in this case it matters not what they said or why.
The facts convict them.
Stop right there! changing your story is NOT in good faith. End of story. Next!
Did they lie or did the press report various distortions of the truth like they always do?
Amen to that!
Dummies! Unless you put it in the contract that the guys get a 90-minute nap each flight, you don’t have a leg to stand on. Get the contract RIGHT the next time, losers!
The FAA is correct that the system has specific exemptions for intentional violations. However, they probably should have let the procedures they have work themselves out. The pilots were taken out of the cockpit anyway, so why not follow the system they have. By not following the system the pilots will be able to appeal through the Federal Courts with a strengthened case.
Using the safety apparatus to penalize pilots is generally not a good idea. Things like the Cockpit Voice Recorder, The Flight Data Recorder and encouraging pilots to self disclose Via Programs like FSAP is indespensible for safety. But they are all dependent on pilot voluntary participation. Like all electrical equipment on the airplane, we can remove power from those systems if we want. We don’t because we’ve been assured that we won’t be second guessed.
Here is one example. The airlines wanted to pull Flight Data Recorders randomly from flights to look through the data and find safety related problems. Both the union and the company agreed that it was a good idea, and the program has an acronym FOQA. There is a great deal of very good safety related data that comes from this program is given to the pilots and is put in training programs. One example they found was the A-320’s landing in Mexico City had tire speeds on landing that exceeded manufactures limits. It’s a high altitude airport, but no one had realized the problem until it was identified by FOQA.
Interesting, though, it took over 4 years to convince the FAA to do the programs, because their lawyers didn’t want to give up the ability to prosecute the pilots if they found something bad on the data. I guess they felt it was better to have no program, then to have one and give up their prosecutorial power.
The problem is always that if you fire pilots for making stupid mistakes, you’ll end up with a lot of inexperienced pilots. It’s kind of like doctors. Do you want the experienced one whose made a mistake or two, or the inexperienced one who hasn’t made any yet. Finding experienced ones that haven’t made any mistakes will be a challenge.
Thanks for your well reasoned post.
“Union Fumes Over Punishment of Northwest Pilots”
A good example of why unions are a joke. Unions would put the lives of passengers on the line while excusing pilots that clearly should be severly punished.
See a government agency can do something right... now and then.
First Sentence Incredible BS Alert!
They did not simply "lose radio contact."
You’re correct, it was more than losing radio contact.
There was no mistake.....this was negligence.
A negligent doctor should lose his license and not be allowed to cover it up as a mistake. The same holds true for pilots.
I suppose, in the age firmly planted in double-speak, this makes sense. However, the changing stories these pilots presented illustrates the problem more clearly than any union faux outrage.
Self-reporting IS the problem!
Pilots are arrogant SOBs, for the most part. I am sorry to break the news that "Sully" Sullenberger, sadly, is the exception, not the rule.
Remember the fruitcake who flew a planload of passengers into the Atlantic?
How about the cockpit crew who abandoned their posts to punch out the cabin crew a few days ago? Granted these were "foreign" pilots, but the mentality is identical.
Military pilots (Tailhook nonwithstanding) have the check of military discipline and accountability. Civilian Aviation has Unions. Abuse elevated to a fine art.
It's inexcusable that any Airline is allowed to fly anywhere with a cockpit flight recorder with a capacity of only 30 minutes. I see the filthy fingers of Union thugism here. What's new?
Pilots can be as arrogant and mindless as they wish, so long as they don't endanger anyone else, particularly paying customers.
I better stop here. This reaction by the Pilots' Unions is making me angry enough to spit nails.
Stupid argument.
If Union agreements endanger the traveling public, they should be changed. Now.
Sad, when exposing hundreds to potential death is excused by "union agreements."
I must have died and gone to Obamaland.
I generally share your animosity for unions, and they’ve generally very bad for the economics of the airline business in particular and the countries’ politics in general. The union, though, has been pretty good when it comes to air safety. Unlike other types of unions there’s a huge downside for us when we keep dirtbags, we have to fly with them. No pilot wants to fly with a dirtbag, it’s scary.
Here are three examples that the union had a big hand in bringing to the airline industry since I got hired.
TCAS. Transponder collision avoidance system. This allows us to see other airplanes within 20 miles of us. The helicopter/light airplane midair collision over NYC would have never happened if they were equipped like we are with TCAS.
EGPWS. Enhance ground proximity warning. A database that is hooked to our GPS that displays terrain height on our Navigation display. It came out after the American Airlines 757 crashed into a mountain in Cali, Columbia.
Predictive Windshear. It is a software program that analyzes weather radar returns to detect windshear and microburst BEFORE the airplanes encounter them.
The airline pilot’s unions pushed hard for all three, and the difference for safety is enormous.
ML/NJ
I hope you meant punishment for infractions..."
WTH?
Are you suggesting that if a pilot reports that he had a blood alcohol lever of 0.30 within 12 hours of the infraction, he skates?
I hope not.
You’re right, they should be changed if they endanger people.
My first thought in seeing that the union was fuming was that these pilots from everything reported screwed up and should have been grounded, still feel that.
It looks like the process for this with agreements between union and airlines are not taken into consideration by the FAA who actually has the say but as another poster stated, the pilots had been removed from the cockpit and that’s the important thing in the first stages.
Well, then this incident served a useful purpose.
If in fact, the pilot can disable all safety features, according to the current laws, rules and regulations, that should change A.S.A.P.
Then the pilots better be prepared to demonstrate that they did it to save the plane and its passengers; the only justifiable reason for doing so.
The infractions I’m thinking of are things like poking inadvertently into restricted airspace or going to 14,000 feet when you were assigned 13000. Under the influence of alcohol sounds like a criminal thing, but I don’t know the determination is made. In any case, I’m not saying these pilots are innocent or guilty... just that it sounds like they were pronounced guilty, convicted and sentenced based the FAA reacting to the media frenzy (gotta do something now! No time to read the facts). The result might be the same, but would take a bit longer... and keeps the ASRS system integrity intact.
Mind you, that was hailed by someone as a "well reasoned" post.
Scary, isn't it? The guilty always stand logic on its head where necessary.
There’s no way in hell you could get your 210 to their altitude so you aren’t in any danger!
This plane could have wound up SHOT DOWN by the US AIR FORCE because of these guys killing all on board! I think if all they suffer is their licenses being pulled they got off light!
They were out of radio contact, jets could have been scrambled and the plane could have been shot down. Sorry, but I think losing your license is all you get as punishment, you are getting off easy.
so your advice would be to...lie.
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