Theology
Posted on 11/03/2009 9:57:44 AM PST by AreaMan
10.30.2009
Can people be good without God? How can people be good, in the moral and ethical sense, without being grounded in some sort of belief in a being which is greater than they are? Where do concepts such as good and evil, right and wrong, come from if not from religion?
Children often repeat ideas gained elsewhere as if they were their own profound insights. I remember in school “inventing” what I thought was a stunning new idea for propulsion only to be told that jet engines were, in fact, fairly common. Of course, a good idea is not less good because kids don’t recognize the source, though you can forget the patent!
In the same way, moral secularists depend on God for their morality, but don’t recognize it. Walking with God over the centuries, theists have learned a thing or two about ethics from divine revelation, the image of God within each human being, and reason. While not able to found much of anything, many Western secularists have appropriated much of this heritage and use it within their own ethical lives. This is infinitely preferable to attempts by secularists such as Mao and Stalin to reinvent ethics in the twentieth century, and thus religious humanists (such as Christians) welcome secular humanists to the fold.
Some of the most ethical people I know are atheists and agnostics. One can certainly be moral without believing in God, but this is because men can surely breath without being aware of the existence of oxygen. God is the cause of moral goodness, but nobody has to recognize the cause in order to get the benefit.
Goodness is an idea that exists in the mind of God. It is built into the very fabric of His creation. When I look up on a starlit night, I see harmony and order. When I look at nature, I see a universe that reflects His glory. The light pollution of Los Angeles cannot obscure every star, and so even the poorest citizen of this crazy coast can still look beyond his petty problems and errors.
Concepts such as good and evil are built into the human soul. While each culture misses something and develops ethical blind spots that ultimately destroy it, one can look at humanity as a whole and get a good picture of what is right and wrong. Our own time has developed weird and wicked obsessions, but history is a good corrective to them. The image of God can been seen in looking at large numbers of men, even if it is obscured just in looking at me, because of where I fall short.
Finally, God is not silent. He speaks to each generation and each culture wooing them to the Divine. All the great world religions contain a seed of that call, though Christianity contains that message in its fullness. God so loved His world that He came Himself in the Jesus not just to show us the way to live, but to provide a means to do it.
This dependence on God, directly and indirectly, is obvious by looking at the creation of human cultures. In terms of global culture, theists create and secularists appropriate what theists create. There is no evidence that great world cultures can be created or sustained over the long haul without religion.
Education taught me right and wrong, good and evil. Much of that education came from nonbelievers who lived out the truths of what I believe better than I did. Plato was wrong about one thing: just knowing something is good does not give a man the moral power to do it.
Knowing what is good and doing it are two different things. Many thoughtful people from Plato to Confucius have had keen ethical vision. Some like Socrates have been willing to die for the truth, but what of the rest of us? What of the ways in which we all fall short of what we know in our hearts is right?
We don’t just need a standard, but mercy. It is mercy and a clean soul that secularism cannot by nature provide and Christianity can. Those of us who have done things we regret, who have placed scars on our souls, are given hope in Christianity that we can be “born again” . . . start over. This hope is priceless and makes me love God.
If you love God, you want to become more like Him. You slowly turn from your own petty loves and begin to love what He loves. This change is gradual, but it is real. Often it forces me to confront things about myself that I would prefer not to see, but love pushes me to change. It is no wonder that Christianity has spread throughout the globe, because it offers goodness with mercy and hope.
Humans can try to “reinvent” morality, though cultural revolutions have usually not worked out well for culture. We can try to pretend that we have not fallen short, even of our standards, but we know the truth. We can even declare our vices to be virtues, but remain vexed by our private sense of guilt and shame. Jesus offers us the truth with mercy, and it is that combination humanity so badly needs.
no
Nope.
Yes. Being an atheist or agnostic doesn't mean someone is an evildoer out to get everyone.
“Where do concepts such as good and evil, right and wrong, come from if not from religion?”
They don’t come from religion; they are part of our GOD-GIVEN nature; it is part of his “image”!
No there is not— not if you believes what the Bible says.
If you don’t believe the Bible, than the answer would be yes.
I believe, therefore, my answer is no.
Perhaps ... but without God, "good" is no longer an objective thing; it requires human definition and is therefore a malleable thing. Morality becomes relative.
They may not be “saved” for a believer, but do you think that every atheist is evil and immoral?
The author never wrote that.
Excellent response and spot on. Like the abortion debate, Liberals think giving someone the freedom to murder is good, while they acknowledge begrudgingly that the underlying the supposed "Good" is something very black and evil. The definition of moral relativism and the slippery slope of relying on “Natural Law” as the atheists point to.
Certainly not intentionally. However, an atheist consciously rejects the very source of goodness and morality. Like cut flowers that soon wither and die without roots, atheists also have no roots for any morals they may hold, and they vanish under stress.
The question cannot be so simply couched. There are plenty of pagan gods out there that were horrific by today’s standards. Then there were and are many people who believed and are believers in the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God, yet whose hideous actions they try to justify using God as an excuse.
In a more subtle light, there is the longstanding argument among more respectable God-believers whether people can be directly inspired by God, or can only do so through a small minority both trained and experienced in knowledge and faith.
There are those who claim that there is complete free will; but others who claim the outcomes are foreordained; and yet others who say all our actions are predestined. Still others say that God could intervene but chooses not to most of the time; that God set the universe into motion, and has let it run on its own since.
Such arguments and debates go far beyond these, and there are no ready answers beyond belief.
I believe the word teaches human nature is inherently “bad”.
Without a Savior, and, as a result, a change of heart, we will constantly only look to further our own selfish desires.
Romans: chapter 3: 9-12
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any betterb? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
If you were young and your parents went out for the evening and left you at home by yourself, did you stay out of trouble or not?
People who stay out of trouble and behave themselves when mom and dad or the babysitter weren’t around are less likely to run amok if they don’t believe in god.
And while you can’t force religion on people it should be tolerated far and wide rather than attack daily in every way possible.
It was the first question of the article. Whether people can be good without God... The article itself of course is more differentiated. But I took the freedom to respond to the first question.
Yes, excellent response. No need for me to duplicate.
Yet, there it is...
They don’t come from religion; they are part of our GOD-GIVEN nature; it is part of his “image”!
The concepts of "good or evil" and "true or false" become subjective in the absence of God. If "good and evil" are subjective terms, then they can mean a different thing to each person. But that renders them meaningless.
The concepts of good and truth need to be anchored in the absolute, which is to say they need to be anchored in God.
Every person is evil and immoral atheist or no because all have a sin nature.
Only God is good.
Krishnamurti
I suppose if people think of Christianity as a "noble lie" that is useful for keeping the great unwashed masses in line and well behaved while the grown ups go about the "real" business of life.
If you seriously, rigorously question the meaning of the word, I submit that it has no meaning without God's commandments.
Without a fixed, immovable standard, what is "good" and what is "bad" becomes a subjective thing. In other words, it's entirely dependent on the standards of the individual asking the question, which may be anything at all. Hence, the word "good" wouldn't really mean anything specific.
To a junkie, "good" might mean "gives me a long-lasting high".
To an alcoholic, "good" might mean "goes down smooth with no aftertaste".
To a rapist, "good" might mean "doesn't scream".
So you are saying that being good is what? A learned behavior? Genetic?
Also why are these people less likely to run amok if the don't believe in God?
Paul explains that the laws of God are written on the hearts of man, so no man has an excuse for not knowing what is good.
So in a way the answer is “Yes, a person who does not believe in God can do good.”
But as a believer, there is an understanding that the fact that a person can do good is due to the fact that God has imbued each person with an understanding of his laws.
So the answer, from a believer’s perspective, is “No, good comes from God, whether or not a person is aware of his work in them.”
I think you misunderstand the meaning of Natural Law; which is an 18th century term for God's laws; which are superior to any man-made codes. Some of that Law is enshrined in the Declaration of Independence: “Life, Liberty, (property) pursuit of happiness”. It was our Founders’ assumption when they framed the constitution that our people would ALWAYS conform to natural law.
Atheists eschew the concept of natural law and consider man's laws to be the ultimate standard.
Just ask Conan the Barbarian....
So what is good and evil without a God? It is anything you think it is at the time, isn’t it? So your answer is no.
That silliness that keeps people behaving well, so sure why not put up with it.
There are many anti-Christian news items these days that it almost not even “news”.
It would be news if there was support for Christians by non religious people.
Is there good without God?
No, since God Himself defines good for us.
You or I could give the world our definition of good but since we have no more authority in the matter than anyone else, anyone else can just dismiss us.
For example, cowardice is universally wrong; especially when it involves failing to help another human being in danger.
Where do these core values of right and wrong come from? Certainly NOT from any "natural selection", as many of them are contrary to self-preservation!
I recommend CS Lewis's commentary on the matter in his book "Mere Christianity", as he discusses some universal truths that led him to reject his atheism and become a Christian.
Just out of curiosity, how do you know that what God says is good, or for that matter that God is good?
If you think God is good, by what standard of values are you making that judgement.
If you say God’s standard, by that method anyone or anything can claim to be good. “By my standards I am good,” says God, or anyone else.
An objective standard of good must exist before any agent can make claim to being good. Arbitrary pronouncements of good and evil are just that, arbitraty, not absolute. If your standard of good and evil are, “whatever God says is good and evil,” you do not believe in absolute values, but values based on the arbitrary whims of your God. You can have no confidence that what He says is good today, will still be good tomorrow. Since He sets the standards, He can make them anything He chooses, right?
Hank
Perhaps incidentally, but the moment they substitute their own judgement in the matter of good and bad for God's and or act upon it they become ‘evil doer's’ by literal definition. (Your “out to get everyone” stipulation has nothing to do with anything).
This one is too easy...first off as Christians we never classify ourselves as "Good" it's anthemia to the message of the gospels. We all sin, we are all sinners, we in the face of the perfect man Jesus Christ are depraved and wicked. We accept that and try each day to be "Christ-like". We read God's word, pray, and through fellowship with other saved people understand crystal clear what constitutes good and evil. We sharpen our skills at discernment. Your question and your conundrum proves my point, being caught in a moral relativists wasteland where you are left obsessing at the meaning of words. It's easy if you are open to the message of the Gospel, if you continue in rebellion and rely on your own mental prowess to create a concrete worldview on sand you will fail. God just is, like gravity whether you choose to believe it doesn’t matter, it just is. Too much evidence to support Jesus, God and veracity of the Bible to think otherwise…predicated that you earnestly search and not harden your heart and close your mind.
The inescapable conclusion of your words is that the entire non-Christian world is comprised of evil-doers (by literal definition, as they have substituted their own judgement for the Christian God's judgement of good/evil). Every single last one of them.
If your conclusion, which is so obviously wrong on its face, is so far off the mark, it leads one to question your premise. Which I do.
Believe in God or don't. Accept Him or dismiss Him as you wish. But to pervert “logic” by lumping, in the matter of Authority, the Author of all things and even time itself with the guy down the block is ridiculous. God SAYS that he is final, unmovable, the Alpha and Omega. That certainty, that unmovable stability, IS THE VERY THING THAT HE HOLDS OUT TO US, who are pitched about in the tempest that is His Creation.
“If your conclusion, which is so obviously wrong on its face, is so far off the mark, it leads one to question your premise. Which I do.”
That last sentence is all you really wanted to say. However your BOGUS set up is still bogus.
No one who is unaware of God’s word can have made a choice against Him.
Jews aren’t Christian but God has held them up as His own.
God Himself has said “narrow is the way and many will fall outside of it” so being part of a great multitude isn’t going to save anyone.
Can people be good without God?
Yes, because God created them! They just don’t accept
to beleive it.
The original question is the same. But the application, pointing out the fact that if moral values are based on the dictates of some entity, then they are no absolute is a different issue.
Since I believe in moral absolutes, because reality and human beings have a specific nature that determines what is and is not good for a human being, I regard basing moral values on the pronouncement of any being a very bad ethical mistake.
Very astute observation, by the way.
Hank
“Doing good” and “being good” from a Christian perspective are distinctive. Anyone can do good. However, being good is dependent on God’s declaration, not ours.
People who stay out of trouble and behave themselves when mom and dad or the babysitter weren’t around are less likely to run amok if they don’t believe in god.
>> So you are saying that being good is what? A learned behavior? Genetic?
Also why are these people less likely to run amok if the don’t believe in God? <<
Being good is a function of good parenting, doesn’t matter which god you believe in good parenting trumps it. Good parenting involves teaching a child the concept of responsibility and empathy which plays heavily into a good behavior.
Religion and a belief in God can be used to help enhance the experience of parenting a child. But it is not a absolute requisite of good/bad behavior, but it does have an influence. There are those kids who just plan don’t behave despite parenting. The issue is a lot of parents think their kids fit in this category and use it as an excuse for bad behavior.
I grew up Roman Catholic, but I am agnostic now, I do good because it makes me feel good as I am very empathic individual and treating people negatively backfires on my psyche. I know that cheating Peter to pay Paul despite best intentions is just plain wrong. Maybe I am a Ayn Rand-ian at heart....
Not in any meaningful way, no.
I disagree.
On what basis are they judged "right" or "wrong"?
For example, cowardice is universally wrong; especially when it involves failing to help another human being in danger.
That's clearly false, as liberal subculture nearly universally embraces cowardice and even condemns those who disagree as "warmongers". Hardly makes for a universal "wrong".
Where do these core values of right and wrong come from? Certainly NOT from any "natural selection", as many of them are contrary to self-preservation!
Exactly! Human nature is selfish by default. What we have come to support as "good" are frequently principles which contradict self-preservation. They lift mankind to a higher plane, above simple self-preservation, and they come from God.
I recommend CS Lewis's commentary on the matter in his book "Mere Christianity", as he discusses some universal truths that led him to reject his atheism and become a Christian.
I love C.S. Lewis and his work. My take on the reasons behind the "universal truths" is that they are implanted in us by God. The conscience of man is not a product of natural selection, as it frequently contradicts survival instincts.
God is good; No God = No Good.
You can get over that.
Give this little book a read:
“They lift mankind to a higher plane, above simple self-preservation, and they come from God.”
We agree. When I say cowardice is one of the universal wrongs, I didn’t mean some don’t embrace it; just that deep down they know they’re wrong.
A better example: a person sees another human being drowning in a river—It is a universal feeling that something should be done to save him, not doing so would cause shame (inside) for cowardice.
Why would I want to get over “it”?
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