Jeffords, Chafee, Specter, Gilchrest, Scozzafava...When Do We Consider 3rd Party?

The North Star National ^ | November 2nd, 2009 | Paul Ibrahim

[vg0va3]

But enough with the blind contributions to the Republican Party, and with the blind voting for establishment-backed candidates. That the establishment attempts to save face every time it loses, at it is doing now by supporting Hoffman two days before the election, should not blind anyone from the fact that only hours ago, it was throwing money at a genuine leftist while trashing Hoffman, and that in the coming months, it will be supporting a decidedly non-conservative Charlie Crist over a perfectly conservative and perfectly electable Marco Rubio in the Florida Republican Senate primary.

Thus, until the Republican establishment truly gets it – and it might take a long time – conservatives must unite in pledging not one more cent to the Republican Party. There is no sense in subsidizing a permanent Republican minority – and one that isn’t even true to its principles.

[vg0va3]

But why stop there?

This question will bother those who love the tradition and having the letter (R) next to a candidate’s name. But, what about those of us that care less for party affiliation and more for principal. When do we consider a 3rd Party?

Some will argue that a 3rd party only helps Democrats. They will argue that a 3rd party always fails. I say consider Doug Hoffman.

Hoffman proved it can be done efficiently and quickly in this era mass communication. Some will argue that he was really a conservative Republican. If that were the case and the party really cared about conservatism, then why didn't they choose him. Candidates have always been whipped into shape by the party bosses telling that they need the party support for them to be successful.

Hoffman chose not to listen, instead he found someone to allow him a platform to deliver his credentials straight to the people. Hoffman proved the wrong.

Consider if this was done in every district of every state. There are those that say we need to take the party back. I ask, "How are you doing that?" By going onto a blog and complaining about Rino's all the while continuing to digest the slop that we have been fed by the party leaders for too long? Or, has Hoffman shown us a way to drive the GOP back to its conservative core by offering it tough love?

This marriage has been on the rocks for a long time. Remember, the famous campaign promise of "read my lips"? It is time for a deep evaluation of our continued bond with the GOP.

How do you administer that tough love?

1) Consider starting a conservative club.

2) Start by finding and cultivating true conservatives within your district. Provide them the platform to express their ideas and how to solve local problems through conservatism.

3) No longer accept the party machine telling you that an individual is a conservative only to find that you define conservative differently than the party bosses.

4) Require each candidate explain their views through the prism of conservatism.

5) Don't only candidates to hide behind political speech.

6) Ask them to explain and teach how conservatism addresses problems within your community. But, don't just focus on your district, but throughout the Country.

7) Use the internet as a platform to spread the word. If you find a teacher/leader let everyone know. That is what happened to Hoffman.

To those of you I mentioned that are skeptical, I regret if I may have offended you by asking my question. But, at the end of the day, what if this action will force the GOP to make a decision? Isn't that what we all really seek?

[Kansas58]

Your argument is with human nature, not the Republican Party.

Yes, there have always been, and will always be, Republicans who do not make us very proud.

This is due to HUMAN failures, not due, directly, to the Republican Party.

Any “3rd Party” will have, as raw material, the same flawed human beings as do the Republicans, currently.

There is absolutely no way, other than a Primary Election, do purge ANY Party of its pretenders.

3rd Party ideas are for morons and losers and for people who do not really want to win.

Hoffman, in this specific case, was an exception. The objective here was to expose Skuzzy, and the corrupt Republican Party establishment in New York.

There was NO primary, in the NY 23 race, as it was a SPECIAL ELECTION! Beyond this point, New York State allows candidates to appear on more than one ballot line, in the SAME election. In other words, next year Hoffman could appear on BOTH the Republican AND the Conservative Party line, on the same ballot.

NY was a very special case.

In most cases, 3rd Party races are for idiots and for people who really want the Democrats to win.

[Boogieman]

When Sarah Palin resurrects the Bull Moose party!

[Huck]

Your argument is with human nature, not the Republican Party.

Correct.

[Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus]

In most cases, 3rd Party races are for idiots and for people who really want the Democrats to win.

What's ironic is that if there ever was a third party that replaced the GOP and got competitive on a national scale, it would have the exact same problem with "TPINOs" that we currently have with RINOs. If it didn't, it wouldn't be big enough to be competitive.

Now is not the time to split conservatives with third partyism. Now is not the time to crap our diapers and take our ball and go home. Now is the time for conservatives to consolidate, take over the GOP apparatus, and make sure we don't have more mistakes like Dede Scozzafava. The way to make that happen is to....make it happen, instead of sucking our thumbs.

[PhiKapMom]

Bingo! On a night when Republicans picked up VA and NJ by a very large margin in VA and a good size margin in NJ considering it was a solid blue state, the last thing I want to see is anything about a 3rd party because like you said in most instances it hurts Republicans.

Anyone who thinks CD-23 was a make or break for the GOP doesn’t understand special elections. She never would have won a Republican primary and someone much more conservative would have one and the NY Conservative Party would have backed that candidate.

Should be a lesson for people to get involved locally so this doesn’t happen where county chairs don’t follow what their county wants them to do in nominating a candidate. The whole fault lies with the NY CD-23 county chairs and the NY State Chair for turning a blind eye to how she was chosen.

[GeronL]

Let the RINO’s and DINO’s form their own third party.

[vg0va3]

Your point is true about human nature. But remember, the Republican Party was the 3rd party at one time. In fact after only 6 years in existence, Abraham Lincoln was elected President as the head of that moronic and loser 3rd party. Ask the Whigs.

[ansel12]

In the Scozzafava choice there was no primary, she was appointed to be the candidate and that is what caused this firestorm.

Primaries make a huge difference in determining what the options are for a particular race.

[ansel12]

Here is historian Michael Medved’s description of that history. By the way, the Whigs were only a party for 22 years.

“2. NO, THE REPUBLICANS NEVER CONSTITUED A THIRD PARTY

Whenever I take the time on the radio to discuss the obvious and inevitable futility of minor party campaigns, some smug caller will try to play “gotcha” by reminding me that my own beloved GOP began its political life as a minor party, and managed to elect an underdog nominee named Lincoln in the fateful election pf 1860. It makes for a good story, and I know it allows misled minions to feel better to believe that it’s true, but the Republicans never operated as a third party. By the time of the first Republican County Convention (in Ripon, Wisconsin, on March 20, 1854) the Whig Party had already collapsed and shattered, hopelessly divided between its Northern anti-slavery branch and the Southern “Cotton Whigs.” Refugees (including numerous Congresmen, Senators and others) from the Whig debacle determined to fill the vacuum and, joined by a few anti-slavery Democrats and former Free Soilers, they launched their new national organization.

The first time candidates ever appeared on ballots with the designation of the new Republican Party came with the Congressional elections of 1854 and the fresh organization won stunning success from the very beginning. That very first year the Republicans won the largest share of the House of Representatives (108 seats, compared to 83 for the Democrats, along with fifteen Senate seats (including the majority of those contested in that election). In other words, the Republicans began their existence not as a third party, or even a second party, but as the instantly dominant party on the ballot. The future “Grand Old Party” showed itself a Grand Young Party not only with its Congressional candidates, but with its first-ever Presidential nominee – John C. Fremont – in 1856. Rather than making the traditional, pointless and masturbatory third party gesture and winning 2% or 10%, Fremont made a real race of it against the Democrat James Buchanan: losing the popular vote 45% to 33%, and the electoral vote, 174 to 118. The real third party candidate was former President Fillmore, whose anti-immigrant Know Nothing campaign drew a few remnants of the Whigs and took just enough votes away from Fremont in New Jersey and Pennsylvania to give Buchanan narrow victories and the electoral majority. By the time they nominated Lincoln four years later, Republicans commanded clear majorities in nearly all the northern states and fully expected to sweep more than enough of those states (especially in light of Democratic divisions) to put him in the White House.

. In the pre-Civil War election of 1860, the Republicans hardly represented an upstart third party effort: they won a clear majority of 59% of the electoral vote and a comfortable plurality (40%) of the popular vote. The real “third party” in this election involved the Southern Democrats who abandoned their national nominee, Stephen A. Douglas, and campaigned for Vice President (and future Confederate general) John C. Breckinridge, winning 18% of the popular vote and 72 electoral votes. Meanwhile, former Cotton Whigs and pro-union Democrats from border states launched a fourth party campaign, winning 13% of the popular vote and 39 electoral votes for their man.”

Formed in 1854 and majority party in the Senate and Congress and President in 1860, never really a third party.

[April Lexington]

Thus, until the Republican establishment truly gets it – and it might take a long time – conservatives must unite in pledging not one more cent to the Republican Party. There is no sense in subsidizing a permanent Republican minority

Seems not to have gotten the memo in November 2008...

[vg0va3]

Now is the time for conservatives to consolidate, take over the GOP apparatus, and make sure we don't have more mistakes like Dede Scozzafava.

My point exactly. How do you take over the party? How do you wake a drunk? You splash cold water on their face. Just the fact that people are organizing without the GOP will shock their system into deciding what they want to do.

[goodnesswins]

Hoffman was NOT a 3rd party candidate....really....Scuzzy was..

[MissouriConservative]

“Primaries make a huge difference in determining what the options are for a particular race.”

Not really, especially when you have open primaries and the democrats get to help decide who the republicans will run. To see that you simply have to look who got an early lead in the last presidential race after the states with open primaries.

[goodnesswins]

Become a Precinct Committee Person in your Precinct!!! YOU get to VOTE on candidates, County Chairs, etc...and some make electoral votes....THAT’s where you exert force!!! Time to engage not withdraw to another party!

[lmr]

In most cases, 3rd Party races are for idiots and for people who really want the Democrats to win.

BINGO!!!!

[vg0va3]

Great story and thanks for the insight. There was a Republican Party before 1856. The Democratic-Republican Party (1792–c.1824). But that and the Whig party status is not my point. The point is all political movements start at some time.

Back to my question, could the simple threat of a 3rd party be enough to drive the GOP home?

[vg0va3]

Please refer to the ballot:

Democrat= Owens
Republican= Scozzafava (withdrawn)
Conservative= Hoffman

[vg0va3]

Been there, done that.

[ansel12]

Primaries sure make a difference to me, I have a great agenda that you would like but if I can’t win any votes in your primary then please don’t vote for me to represent your side in the general election.

[goodnesswins]

I KNOW the ballot....I’m talking about REALITY!

[DCBurgess58]

I am no longer a Republican. I will vote as an independant from now on. The Republican party has lost me. I was part of their base and had donated to the party in the past. They will never see a penny of my money again. I do not wish to be in a big tent with persons who oppose my political beliefs. I do not want my donations thrown away to candidates who will advance the Democrat's agenda.

I will continue to vote and will probably vote Republican but don't expect me to vote for ANY RINOs... EVER!

I WILL NOT vote for any candidate just because they have an (R) behind their name. I don't have to feel obliged to vote Republican anymore because I no longer am a Republican. If I don't like any of the choices for candidate... I'M NOT VOTING... period!

Screw the Republican party leadership, I hate them, they have destroyed the Republican party and in doing so have perminently advanced the cause of socialism in America.

[ansel12]

We already have 49 “third” parties so the answer is no.

Reagan showed the path, he won the primary.

[Uncle Miltie]

A: When you want to lose every race in a plurality.

[iowamark]

Let me post a Rush Limbaugh call, the one that you posted earlier under a fake headline.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_091409/content/01125113.guest.html
“”Beware, Folks: A Third Party Will Reelect Obama and the Democrats
September 14, 2009

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT

RUSH: Dana in Ottawa, Illinois. Welcome to the EIB Network. Hello.

CALLER: Hi, Rush. I’m thrilled to speak with you today.

RUSH: Thank you very much.

CALLER: I admire you a lot. To get right to it, I did call to disagree with you in some respect about this not being a GOP versus Democrat movement. And to illustrate that, I’d like to go back to your point about there is no leader of this movement, and —

RUSH: You’re nervous.

CALLER: — many of the speakers the other day at the rally spoke to that point. And a lot of the people I spoke with were Democrats that are disgusted with Obama, and to a person the Republicans that I spoke with were just fed up with government in general. There was a lot of anger at the Bush administration. They had all the levers of power at their disposal and they did nothing. They did not represent us. There’s just real anger out there, and so I really believe that this movement is bigger than the political parties. I really think there’s going to be a movement soon to maybe form another party. I’ve been a Republican my whole life, but those people no longer represent me. And if I could, I’d like to talk to you about an 81-year-old man that was on the bus that I was on. There were 28 ragtag people on that bus from all walks of life. He took four shots of insulin a day and he made it on that bus. He did not have a leader. There was nobody telling him to get on a bus and go there. And, Herb, if you’re out there I hope you’re doing fine. And he went through that 16-hour bus ride, stood all day, and then the major media is not even reporting tens of thousands of people were there. I think people like Herb deserve better from our media. And I’m just outraged, Rush, and I’m thrilled that I was there. My niece and my sister and my husband went with me. And we didn’t have anybody tell us to go there. We did not have a leader. We realized that we have to do it ourselves. Nobody in the Republican Party, God knows not on the other side, are going to help us, and we have to do this ourselves.

RUSH: Now, let me address the second thing you mentioned first, and that is all these people that showed up deserve better from the media.

CALLER: Yes, they do.

RUSH: Yeah, they do, you’re absolutely right, it ain’t going to happen. I have long cautioned everybody, if you seek validation for your actions based on the media being accurate in their reporting of your actions, you’re going to be forever disappointed. The media is as much the enemy as is the Obama administration.

CALLER: Well, trust me when I tell you that I know that. I’m not surprised by it. But I am outraged by it because I mean this is verging on Pravda. I mean you look at those pictures on the television, you know, even MSNBC had a wide shot, an aerial view of this group of protesters, and they’re trying to tell people there were tens of thousands of people there? I’m not surprised; the people at the rally were not surprised. But it’s so disappointing, and I’m going to tell you, Rush, I spoke to a lot of people there, and we will come out in bigger numbers the next time, and I will do whatever it takes. I worked on Friday. I got on a bus for 16 hours, I knew it wasn’t going to be fun. I’m back at work today —

RUSH: But it was fun.

CALLER: — in Illinois.

RUSH: No wait. But it was fun. You did enjoy it.

CALLER: I did enjoy it.

RUSH: And you enjoyed it for all the reasons that you’ve mentioned. But we’ve gotta be really, really careful here, Dana, about this left versus right government thing. You mentioned third party, and we’ve been through this with Perot.

CALLER: I know that. I know that. And I think Perot helped Clinton get in, I don’t doubt that. I do believe there has to be a huge movement before people can vote that way.

RUSH: But a third party is not going to do anything other but ensure the reelection of Obama and every other Democrat running for office because even if you come up with a charismatic third-party presidential candidate, still isn’t going to have anybody of any significance running in that party for seats in Congress of the US Senate unless this movement happened to become the majority movement in the country, and that’s not what’s happening. I respectfully disagree with you here. I understand the anger at the Republican Party. Hell, I’ve got it, too. I’ve had it for a long, long time. But don’t make the mistake of thinking this is not a left versus right thing. This is a conservative ascendancy that’s going on out there. You didn’t show up and protest like this when the Republicans were in power.

BREAK TRANSCRIPT

RUSH: Folks, we need to take the Republican Party back. The Democrat Party was co-opted, has been co-opted by a bunch of communists, socialist, fascists, what have you from the sixties and the seventies and that’s what we’re up against now. We have allowed our party to be co-opted by a slate of Ivy League elitists and country club, blue-blood Republicans who want to be thought of as enlightened and compassionate and so forth, they want to be thought of as liberal light, Democrat light. We’ve talked about what the divisions in the Republican Party are all about. It’s about the social issues, the Republicans don’t like the pro-lifers being in the party, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now, if we just leave the Republican Party where it is, go third party, we’re ceding defeat. The Electoral College alone, the Electoral College discriminates against third party like you can’t believe. It’s not the way to go. I realize a lot of you are going to be mad at me, but history repeats itself. But the one thing that you who have been with me for 21 years know is that I have never been anything other but a mainstream down the line rock solid bulwark conservative because that’s who I am. And I know that the Republican Party has won big time when it has been as well.

I know that a third party isn’t going to win diddly-squat. But, I am prepared for the next two to four years for some of you out there to hate me and despise me because of this. Because I’m well aware of the anti-Washington sentiment that exists and the desire to just throw the whole thing into the Potomac River and rebuild it. It does have to be rebuilt but you’re never going to throw it all in the Potomac River. And if you discount the role of Barack Obama in ginning up all this passion that’s leading to the protests, if you want to try to equate the Republican Party to what this radical bunch of leftists is doing, you’re going to have a tough time convincing me that there’s any similarity.

BREAK TRANSCRIPT

RUSH: Folks, you gotta understand, let me put it to you this way: We are at the triage stage. We’ve gotta address the biggest emergency first, and that is stopping Obama. That has to happen. If that doesn’t happen then all the rest of this is academic. The second thing is, Ross Perot gave the White House to the Democrats in two successive elections, and I can show it to you in polling data, which I think I’m going to do tomorrow.

END TRANSCRIPT””

[ansel12]

I am no longer a Republican. I will vote as an independant from now on.

I have never been a member of a political party in my life, a lot of us here at FR are independents.

[Seaplaner]

K58 writes...In most cases, 3rd Party races are for idiots and for people who really want the Democrats to win.

I mostly agree, although I would replace "idiots" with impassioned good people who don't realize that third party candidates usually dilute the vote to ensure a win for the least closely aligned candidate.

Clinton understood this, and I would wager that Perot and the Clintons had an "arrangement".

The time to make noise is during THE PRIMARY!

.

[vg0va3]

I understand what you mean and I'm sure he will be the Republican PARTY nominee next year.

I'm just trying to drive the point home that we (not just me) need to discuss how to bring the GOP home so that this doesn't happen again. We can wish that it happens, but we all must move this together.

Every body persists in its state of being at rest or of moving uniformly straight forward, except insofar as it is compelled to change its state by force impressed

If you get a chance to read the link to Not one more cent to the Republican Party, he has suggestions on how to accomplish the task too.

[CurlyBill]

The Republican Party needs a cleansing, and I think it has started. We need to keep the pressure on and get rid of the RINOs. Everything else takes care of itself.

[goodnesswins]

Ha...if you only knew....

[D-fendr]

There’s nothing that can be done with a third-party that can’t be done by changing the GOP. The means and methods to win with a third party are exactly the same as the ones to change the GOP. It’s been done.

And if you can’t be successful in that, you darn sure won’t be successful with a third party.

[gogogodzilla]

I take it you would have voted for Scozzafava had you lived in that district, then?

Can’t vote for those nasty 3rd party losers, you know.

[gogogodzilla]

No, we have 49 fringe parties.

What we don’t have is a 3rd party. Perot came the closest, though.

[cookcounty]

New York is radically different>/b> from other states.

A candidate can be listed with 2 (or more) parties on the ballot and keep all votes given.

That's why there is a relatively healthy "Conservative Party", as well as a strong "Liberal Party" in many NY elections. But they almost never win without GOP or Dem endorsement. Unless the ballot law is changed in other states, you will end up splitting the Conservative/Republican vote and the Dems can win (and control!!) everything without even getting 40% of the vote.

[DavidFarrar]

I agree; 3rd party ideas are premature at this point. Besides, corporate money will find its way into 3rd party candidates just as surely as they have with Republican Party candidates.

The bottom line here is engagement. We must organize grassroot fiscal conservatives within the party so they can play a bigger role in the party's primaries and in policing Republican public office-holders after their election to public office.

I know how the party structure works. Believe me, it can be worked. It can be manipulated. It can be changed. Writing a post here is fine, but it's not enough. It's not going to change anything. You have to take the next step.

Nobody here, and I mean nobody, has the right to complain if they can't tell me the phone number of their local GOP headquarters, or has attended at least one monthly meeting of same within the last six months. It's time to take the next step, and it's a big one. It separates the talkers from to doers. It is a step 98% of you reading this post won't have the simple gumption to do. Get up. Find the phonebook, and call your local GOP headquarters and ask them where and when their next meeting is. Obama is in power now because he got his supporters to get up and take that step. The question facing the future of this country today is, can you?

ex animo

davidfarrar

[vg0va3]

I wrote the headline to remind the readers that people can speak with their actions as well as their words.

It should have been placed in Vanity so that I would not have needed a link to pose my question. However, I chose to provide the reader a link to the source of my question. MY mistake, my post might have been difficult for some to understand. I will try harder next time.

As for a personal observation, I do suggest that you don't make accusations without considering all of the facts. It doesn't make you look cleaver. If you would have read the post and considered my premise instead of attacking my question you may be able to offer a thoughtful answer.

For those that do not know what iowamark is speaking about Here is the link again:

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_091409/content/01125113.member.html

[ansel12]

His party is still there, it is still part of the “third” party movement riding the road to success.

[vg0va3]

I am sure I could learn a great deal from you and welcome the opportunity.

[vg0va3]

Thank you for helping to make that clearer. I understand how their system booted Hoffman out. I just am glad that he found a platform that would allow him to address the conservative principals.

[vg0va3]

We must organize grassroots fiscal conservatives within the party so they can play a bigger role in the party's primaries and in policing Republican public office-holders after their election to public office. Yes! Thank you.

[raisetheroof]

But, what about those of us that care less for party affiliation and more for principal. When do we consider a 3rd Party?

Hopefully, never. 3rd parties are for people who aren't grounded in reality.

A Denver radio talk show host, Mike Rosen, is fond of saying "Party trumps person." And he's exactly right. Like it or not, we have a two party system. Either D's or R's will be in power. By doing anything to help a D get elected (including voting 3rd party to drive a RINO out), that empowers Pelosi, Reid, Waxman, Frank, Obama and all their constituents including ACORN, SEIU, abortionists, greenies and other assorted leftists.

[publana]

The whole fault lies with the NY CD-23 county chairs and the NY State Chair for turning a blind eye to how she was chosen.

Thank you for your voice of reason!

[Jabba the Nutt]

In the 80’s and 90’s there were ‘Republican Assembly’ groups out there is a lot of States. I don’t know, if they still exist.