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Fort Hood Killer Reportedly Chose "Cop Killer" Handgun (More Brady baloney)
Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence ^ | Nov 6, 2009 | NA

Posted on 11/11/2009 11:47:41 AM PST by neverdem

Four and a half years ago, three police organizations in the United States issued advisories to warn officers that a new handgun introduced into the U.S. market by a Belgium manufacturer of military firearms represented a unique threat to the safety of police officers. 

It was a handgun that was designed to fire bullets through body armor.  A U.S. Senator and a U.S. Congressman urged a legal ban on civilian possession of the firearm, which began being referred to as the "cop killer gun."  The gun, manufactured by FN Herstal of Belgium, is lightweight and easily concealable, and was designed as a military sidearm to complement military rifles made by the same company.  One law enforcement expert referred to the Five-Seven as "an assault rifle that fits in your pocket." 

While no police officer has reportedly been killed by a suspect armed with a Five-Seven, it may now have taken the lives of U.S. soldiers. Today, several news sources are reporting that it was the Five-Seven that Nidal M. Hasan used in his shooting attack at Fort Hood in Texas Thursday 

In January 2005, the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP), International Brotherhood of Police Officers (IBPO) and the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives (NOBLE), released their alert to the police community at a press conference, joined by U.S. Senator Charles Schumer and Congressman Elliott Engel of New York. 

When first launched for civilian sales, company officials wrote on the company website that “enemy personnel, even wearing body armor can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters. Kevlar® helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection will be penetrated.” That language has since been removed by FN Herstal.

In early 2005, Brady Campaign staff purchased the weapon at a Virginia gun dealer and test-fired it.  The bullets successfully penetrated a police Kevlar vest.

###

As the nation's largest, non-partisan, grassroots organization leading the fight to prevent gun violence, the Brady Campaign, with its dedicated network of Million Mom March Chapters, works to enact and enforce sensible gun laws, regulations and public policies. The Brady Campaign is devoted to creating an America free from gun violence, where all Americans are safe at home, at school, at work, and in our communities.

For continuing insight and comment on the gun issue, read Paul Helmke's blog at www.bradycampaign.org/blog/. Visit the Brady Campaign website at www.bradycampaign.org.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: banglist; bradywatch; guncontrol; liberalfascism; paulhelmke
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The original source:

The Folly of Unilateral Disarmament

Even less relevant is the allegation that Hasan used illegal armor-piercing ammunition. The Brady Campaign bizarrely chose to highlight that claim even though there was no indication that any of Hasan’s victims were wearing bullet-proof vests, let alone that his bullets penetrated them. Perhaps the group hoped that such puzzling illogic would distract people from the plain fact that having a gun is better than not having one when you are confronted by a homicidal maniac.

The thread:

The Folly of Unilateral Disarmament

1 posted on 11/11/2009 11:47:42 AM PST by neverdem
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To: neverdem

Hasan was an army officer on an army base. Getting his hands on a weapon was not a problem.


2 posted on 11/11/2009 11:50:00 AM PST by marron
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To: neverdem
A handgun isn't a 'cop killer', that term is reserved for a specific type of round that is made to penetrate some body armor. The handgun was the same size that could use one of these rounds, however, all reports I've seen have said it wasn't clear this type of round was used. The media is making the assumption that because this handgun could have used a 'cop killer' round, it must have... very poor reporting.
3 posted on 11/11/2009 11:50:12 AM PST by mnehring
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To: marron
Fort Hood Killer Reportedly Chose "Cop Killer" Handgun

If they really wanted to scare people, shouldn't they have called it a Minority Baby Killer Gun?

4 posted on 11/11/2009 11:52:08 AM PST by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it)
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To: neverdem

Brady bunch blames gun for terrorist murders. Forgetting to mention that the armor piercing (cop killer) ammo is not available to the public. These scumbags exploiting the Islamic terrorist murders of American soldiers makes me sick. I want to see the Brady Bunch blame the murderer for a change.


5 posted on 11/11/2009 11:52:55 AM PST by ozzymandus
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To: marron
"Hasan was an army officer on an army base. Getting his hands on a weapon was not a problem."

That's not entirely accurate, at all. He had no more access to a weapon, than a civilian school teacher working on the base. I think civilians believe that Army & Marine Corps bases are places where weapons are just laying about. They aren't. Weapons are highly secured, at all times. If you don't have a reason to remove your weapon from the armory, you're not going to be removing a weapon from the armory.

And, there's more than a probable chance that Hasan wasn't even assigned a sidearm, unlike all other line or infantry officers that are assigned a personal sidearm. It's probably for these reasons that Hasan used his personally acquired and owned weapons.

6 posted on 11/11/2009 11:57:13 AM PST by OldDeckHand (Obamacare - So bad, even Joe Lieberman isn't going to vote for it.)
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To: neverdem
which began being referred to as the "cop killer gun."

They fail to mention that they were probably the ones who began referring to anything as "cop killer."

7 posted on 11/11/2009 11:58:16 AM PST by Disambiguator
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To: neverdem

If you want to kill a cop, buy a .45. If you want to wound him, buy a 5x7FN. Shoosh - these people are crazy - also, have you ever seen them upset when a cop actually gets killed? No, they’re too busy hanging out with their ivy league terrorist Bill Ayers.


8 posted on 11/11/2009 12:05:42 PM PST by equalitybeforethelaw
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To: neverdem
See it here.

9 posted on 11/11/2009 12:07:19 PM PST by I see my hands (_8(|)
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To: neverdem

She really IS a stupid old hag isn’t she ...


10 posted on 11/11/2009 12:07:42 PM PST by Bradís Gramma (BG x 2 (and a heartbeat was heard today....))
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To: Disambiguator
They fail to mention that they were probably the ones who began referring to anything as "cop killer."

You beat me to the point. This is precisely the case.

11 posted on 11/11/2009 12:16:42 PM PST by Paine in the Neck (Nepolean fries the idea powder)
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To: neverdem

The 5.7 does not seem to be much of any kind of killer. The killed to wounded ration is, thank God, very low.


12 posted on 11/11/2009 12:18:05 PM PST by Lion Den Dan
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To: neverdem

We should ban planes first, though, since they killed 3,000 on 9/11.


13 posted on 11/11/2009 12:19:59 PM PST by MBB1984
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To: neverdem

The 5.7 FN is not much of a killer. The dead to wounded ratio is, thank God, very low.


14 posted on 11/11/2009 12:20:05 PM PST by Lion Den Dan
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To: neverdem

“the plain fact that having a gun is better than not having one when you are confronted by a homicidal maniac.”

Bingo!

It was an UNARMED SITTING DUCK killer gun.

The presence of this traitor as a Major on a U.S. Army post was made possible by the malaise of prolitical correctness all the way up the chain of command.


15 posted on 11/11/2009 12:20:33 PM PST by justapicker (I don't want the cheese, I just want out of the trap)
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To: neverdem
Thank GOD he used the glorified .22 Mag "cop killer" and not something with a bit more oomph to it like a .40 or .45

The 5.7mm he used is known for making very small wound channels, often over penetrating the intended targets.
Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

5.7x28mm is fourth from the left, 45acp is on far right.

The death toll that day would have been much greater had he used a .45acp hollow points which cause much more catastrophic tissue damage since all of the energy from the round is spent inside the target. It is the difference between using a 40 grain ice pick and a 210 grain sledge hammer.
16 posted on 11/11/2009 12:21:22 PM PST by BorisTheBulletDodger (Bang!)
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To: neverdem

Great story! (Sarcasm)

For those of us who know a thing about guns, what was the caliber? I didn’t know they made handguns that would fire rifle calibers.

The penetration for handguns is in the ammo not the machine itself.


17 posted on 11/11/2009 12:33:03 PM PST by Tenacious 1 (Government For the People - an obviously concealed oxymoron)
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To: neverdem
Of course the Rat angle is all screwed up...the real story here is that none of the soldiers in the vicinity were armed because of Clinton-era rules at Fort Hood banning the carrying of sidearms on base.

Once the Islamist nutjob shouted "Allahu Akbar!" and opened fire, they did not have anything on hand to shoot back with. Instead, it took a cop civilian cops, who arrived THREE minutes after the killing started, to take the perp down. And this on a major military base!

THAT's the REAL story here...

18 posted on 11/11/2009 12:33:56 PM PST by Virginia Ridgerunner (Sarah Palin has crossed the Rubicon!)
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To: neverdem
Let's just ban every possible gun that could conceivably kill someone.
Only the safe guns, the ones that cannot kill, would remain.


19 posted on 11/11/2009 12:38:56 PM PST by Sender (It's never too late to be who you could have been.)
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To: Tenacious 1

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/fabriquen.htm

batfe doesn’t seem too worried about the FiveSeven or it’s ammo.


20 posted on 11/11/2009 12:41:35 PM PST by ltc8k6
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To: neverdem

How is that other soldiers (his victims) didn’t have any guns (”cop killer” or simple “civilian killer” guns)?


21 posted on 11/11/2009 12:43:58 PM PST by nonsporting
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To: mnehring
There is no such thing as a "cop killer" round of ammo. There is such a thing as armor piercing and all handguns can use armor piercing ammo. Getting the ammo is the trick. Not only that, a .44 mag at close range will shoot through vests without armor piercing ammo, so will any number of rifles and other handguns. The fact is these anti-gun a**hats are trying to distract from the real danger, muslims and other insane a**hats that want to kill people. Had the rest of the troops been armed only a few would have been killed before the crazy muslim ba*****d was brought down.

The bottom line is that none of the people at fort hood had on body armor. A .22 long rifle round would have done just about the same amount of damage as the 5.7 did. I understand he also had a .357 magnum, but that seems to be lost in the news media hype.

22 posted on 11/11/2009 12:46:19 PM PST by calex59
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To: neverdem
It was a handgun that was designed to fire bullets through body armor.

What an amazing display of ignorance and deceit.

23 posted on 11/11/2009 12:50:18 PM PST by TigersEye (0bama is our first Port of Entry President - I hope he goes home.)
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To: marron

He got the gun over the counter just as you and I could.

They haven’t released whether he was using Armor Piercing Ammo illegally maintained.

In any event the Bullet is key to defeating body armor not the caliber. However, this particular 5.77 round travels at almost double the speed of normal handgun rounds and can defeat more kinds of body armor than a 9mm or .40cal.

Since he wasn’t up against body armor, and knew that, he wouldn’t need AP. Since AP is verrry hard to get and would risk arrest he probably used normal 5.77 ammo.

My personal thought was he wanted to be effective out to 50+ yards and this is the round for that. Or maybe that was just the kind of weapon he had. It is ideal for firing a lot of shots quickly because it has very little recoil. Just Pop Pop Pop like any other .22.


24 posted on 11/11/2009 12:50:39 PM PST by ImJustAnotherOkie
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To: harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; Shooter 2.5; wku man; SLB; ..
The usual BS from the usual sources.

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

25 posted on 11/11/2009 12:54:37 PM PST by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: neverdem
"...While no police officer has reportedly been killed by a suspect armed with a Five-Seven, it may now have taken the lives of U.S. soldiers. ..."

"IT" didn't take anyone's life. Hasan took their lives, with the tools he had at hand. The gun is not the weapon - it's just an implement of the human will. The mind is the weapon. Without his malice and forethought, "it's" just an expensive paperweight.

26 posted on 11/11/2009 12:54:57 PM PST by conservativeharleyguy (Democrats: Over 60 million fooled daily!)
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To: marron

They need to stop whining about the guns. We are damn lucky the pig didn’t have resources to get his hands on a bomb. (which I suspect will be the next form of internal attack on the military)


27 posted on 11/11/2009 12:55:39 PM PST by Toespi
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To: Tenacious 1
For those of us who know a thing about guns, what was the caliber?

5.7 mm, which is why it is called the Five-Seven.

28 posted on 11/11/2009 1:01:18 PM PST by VRWCmember
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To: ImJustAnotherOkie
It is ideal for firing a lot of shots quickly because it has very little recoil. Just Pop Pop Pop like any other .22.

That's one of the reasons I considered this gun for home defense (for the wife). Our Ruger .357 revolver is a bit too much for her and our H&K 9mm perhaps not enough in other ways.

29 posted on 11/11/2009 1:01:48 PM PST by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: neverdem

It’s just too bad Hasan didn’t choose one of those
“muslim killer” hand guns. It would have saved a lot
of lives.


30 posted on 11/11/2009 1:03:24 PM PST by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: calex59

I didn’t mean by official title, but what they are stereotyped as.


31 posted on 11/11/2009 1:03:42 PM PST by mnehring
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To: scripter

It would be very good for home defense. Low recoil, low sound, low muzzle flash and decent mag capacity.


32 posted on 11/11/2009 1:07:59 PM PST by TigersEye (0bama is our first Port of Entry President - I hope he goes home.)
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To: OldDeckHand

He was an Officer, all he had to do was show up at the armory and withdraw a rifle or a pistol and say he was going to the range to practice.

Not only are officers allowed to practice their marksmanship they are encouraged to do so.


33 posted on 11/11/2009 1:08:27 PM PST by usmcobra (Your chances of dying in bed are reduced by getting out of it, but most people still die in bed)
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To: Toespi

Gee who didn’t see load of BS coming down the pike – too bad we can’t produce methane from this constant stream of excrement coming from the Disarm the law-abiding Statists.

Is there any doubt that if that bozo (I mean Hasan, not you know who) hadn’t been able to get a hold of a gun we would have made a bomb? Or driven a Humvee into a crowd of soldiers, Or?


34 posted on 11/11/2009 1:08:27 PM PST by Voice of Reason88 (Every Commie must grasp the truth that political power grows out of the barrel of a gun MaoTse-dung)
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To: neverdem

Leave to the MSM to spin a .22 into a “cop killer.” Assuming this guy knows what he’s doing around guns I’d say knew he was not going up against cops or body armor and chose a weapon with minimum recoil for rapid firing. Sheesh.


35 posted on 11/11/2009 1:09:24 PM PST by colorado tanker (What's it all about, Barrrrry? Is it just for the power, you live?)
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To: neverdem

“Armor piercing variants of the 5.7x28mm are only offered to law enforcement and military customers. Commercially available variants of the 5.7x28mm cartridge are classified by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) as being not armor piercing and it was claimed that the SS192 and SS196 cartridge variants did not penetrate Kevlar vests in tests conducted by FNH USA.”


36 posted on 11/11/2009 1:10:10 PM PST by Obadiah (Obama: Chains you can believe in!)
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To: Tenacious 1

It was the 5.7x28mm. Basically a .22 magnum. Comparing it to a rifle round is laughable.

With any round you have a set amount of energy propelling the bullet, and you can choose lighter, faster bullets or heavier, slower ones. The anti-rights crowd jumps on the velocity (high relative to pistols, nothing compared to rifles) and completely ignores the tiny round.

The 5.7 has energy levels in the 300 ft-lb range. By comparison:
- Old police .38 revolvers are around 250 ft-lbs.
- The smallest round considered viable for self defense, the 9mm, has around 400 ft-lbs.
- The other two predominant defense calibers, the .40 and .45, have around 500 ft-lbs.
- The .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum revolvers pack about 750 and 1000 ft-lbs respectively.
- The “intermediate” cartridges in the AK and AR that the media love to vilify have around 1300 ft-lbs.
- Actual rifle cartridges, like your boring old .308 or .30-06 deer rifle, fall around 3000 ft-lbs.

There’s nothing “armor piercing” about it. It will go through a vest, the same way that any rifle, most magnum revolvers, and a variety of pistols will, because vests are designed for light pistol rounds. The fabric just can’t handle that much energy.


37 posted on 11/11/2009 1:12:51 PM PST by BobbyT
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To: TigersEye

I completely agree. One of my next two guns will be either this gun or the 1911 .45. The wife can’t really shoot the .45 so I may go the FN route first.


38 posted on 11/11/2009 1:15:32 PM PST by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: neverdem

I cannot envision a “cop killer gun” any more than I can a “cop killer automobile” or a “cop killer baseball bat” ... This is one of the limitations of my non-progressive mind.

To assimilate that article I have to ascribe will and volition to an inanimate object, and I am unable to do so.


39 posted on 11/11/2009 1:19:16 PM PST by spodefly (This is my tag line. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
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To: TigersEye
Low recoil, low sound, low muzzle flash and decent mag capacity.

Low stopping power too

40 posted on 11/11/2009 1:32:55 PM PST by paul51 (11 September 2001 - Never forget)
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To: scripter

I got mine a little s&w featherweight 5 shot.

No hammer to snag, very small fits in your pocket. Another thing I considered was someone grabbing the barrel or putting their thumb between the hammer & frame and always ready.


41 posted on 11/11/2009 1:35:40 PM PST by ImJustAnotherOkie
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To: ImJustAnotherOkie

Good idea. Thanks.


42 posted on 11/11/2009 1:38:37 PM PST by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: scripter
The .45 ACP is a great caliber with terrific stopping power. Something almost no one would disagree with. I have a Ruger decocker and it goes with me everywhere. But can you imagine the noise and the flash inside your home when you have just been woken from a sound sleep?

I say that while keeping a short 12 ga Mossberg handy for 0-dark-30 surprises. The absolute antithesis of the 5.7 as I described it above. Major recoil, big big sound, muzzle flash like a super nova and only six shells at most.

What can I say? Sometimes you feel like a Ninja sometimes you feel like the U.S.S. Ticonderoga. Life is better when you give yourself choices. ;^)

43 posted on 11/11/2009 1:43:28 PM PST by TigersEye (0bama is our first Port of Entry President - I hope he goes home.)
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To: paul51
Low stopping power too

The Ft. Hood massacre doesn't follow with that.

44 posted on 11/11/2009 1:46:38 PM PST by TigersEye (0bama is our first Port of Entry President - I hope he goes home.)
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To: neverdem

How is it possible that a person could not possess the ability of deduction?


45 posted on 11/11/2009 1:50:45 PM PST by wastedyears (My 15 seconds of fame are on my profile.)
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To: spodefly

So, no one was wearing body armor, Why would they since this was one of Bill Clinton’s GUN FREE ZONES! More important was the ammo fired by the law officer. My bet it was 9 mm ball, which is a lot better than finger nails, but shame she wasn’t using JHP as we could bury the alleged TERRORIST.
ATTABOY GIRL, KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!
barbra ann


46 posted on 11/11/2009 1:54:42 PM PST by barb-tex (She is one of us)
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To: TigersEye
Indeed!

I've heard about that Mossberg for years. In fact I don't think there could be a gun thread on FR without mention of it! My local shop doesn't care for the Mossberg and is always trying to sell me the Remington 870 but I can't hear a word he's saying when I'm staring at a M4.

I like the looks I get at the range while shooting my .357. Everybody backs up, looks, and somebody always asks what I'm shooting.

For home defense I was also thinking of a pistol crossbow so as to not give away my location.

Gotta give yourself choices... indeed.

47 posted on 11/11/2009 2:12:00 PM PST by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: neverdem; Uri’el-2012
No different than a freeper calling the pistol an "assault machine pistol...to produce maximum terror" of all things.

To: OldDeckHand
I'm still puzzled how a guy with "no interest in weapons" came to own such an expensive and boutique weapon - a weapon that is used by a number country's special forces units. Hopefully, someone is asking that question.

I have asked that question and have been attacked as a anti-gun Sarah Brady nut here on FR. I believe the type of gun was selected for him by Al Qaeda.

It is an assault machine pistol with low enough recoil for a neophyte to produce maximum terror. 56 posted on Sunday, November 08, 2009 12:11:02 PM by

Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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48 posted on 11/11/2009 2:19:26 PM PST by Shooter 2.5 (NRA /Patron - TSRA- IDPA)
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To: neverdem

Hey! Yo! Brady scum... It ain’t the weapon. It’s the ammo that penetrates body armor. And even that should be legal in America, IMO.


49 posted on 11/11/2009 2:21:45 PM PST by PubliusMM (RKBA; a matter of fact, not opinion. 01-20-2013: Change we can look forward to.)
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To: neverdem

As usual, the Brady nitwits don’t let facts get in the way...


50 posted on 11/11/2009 2:22:45 PM PST by wysiwyg (What parts of "right of the people" and "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?)
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