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Italian Mayors Order Crufixes Put in Classrooms in Revolt against European Court Ruling
LifeSite ^ | November 17, 2009 | Hilary White

Posted on 11/17/2009 10:39:50 AM PST by NYer

ROME, November 17, 2009 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Poland's president, Lech Kaczynski and the leadership of the Greek Orthodox Church have both hit out at a decision by the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) attempting to ban the display of crucifixes in Italian public schools. At the same time, a general revolt against the ruling in municipalities all over Italy has been started by public officials, who are now ordering the display of crucifixes in schools, and levelling fines for non-compliance.

The November 3rd ECHR ruling, made in response to a complaint by an Italian secularist campaigner, said that the display of crucifixes violated the religious rights of pupils.

During Independence Day celebrations on Wednesday in Warsaw, Poland's Kaczynski said that "nobody in Poland will accept the message that you can't hang crosses in schools."

"One shouldn't count on that. Perhaps elsewhere, but never in Poland," Kaczynski said.

The reaction from Poland has touched a national nerve in a country where crucifixes and other religious symbols were banned under the atheistic communist rule and are now a prominent symbol of national sovereignty.

Lech Walesa, the former president and leader of the Solidarity movement that eventually freed Poland from its Soviet-controlled communist dictatorship, challenged the court ruling in a TV interview Thursday, saying, "We must respect minorities but also protect the rights of the majority."

At the same time, Archbishop Ieronymos, the Archbishop of Athens and primate of the Autocephalous Orthodox Church of Greece has also spoken out, urging all Europeans to oppose the ruling, saying the court is ignoring the role of Christianity in forming Europe's identity. The Greek Church has intervened in the case in response to a Greek citizen whose son is studying in Italy, the BBC reports.

The reactions from Greece and Poland reflect the warning made recently by UK legal expert Neil Addison, who told LifeSiteNews.com that, because of the intricacies of European Union law, the Italian crucifix ruling is likely ultimately to affect all 27 member states.

Addison, an author and expert on anti-discrimination law, said that if the Italian government loses their appeal, the ruling could result in the enforced exclusion of all public displays of Christian symbols all over Europe. Addison specifically warned that in countries like Greece and Cyprus, the common display of icons in public places would be under threat.

In fact, since the November 3rd ruling was announced, a secularist activist group in Greece, the Greek Helsinki Monitor, has called for a similar ruling to be applied to that country. The group is urging trade unions to challenge the presence of religious symbols in Greek schools.

The BBC reports that the Orthodox Church plans to hold an emergency Holy Synod to hash out a plan to oppose the ruling.

Meanwhile, Italian papers are reporting a general revolt across the country against the Strasburg ruling. All schools in the League Monza in the Lombardy region, have been given seven days to ensure that crucifixes are displayed in every classroom. The mayor of Besana in Brianza, Vittorio Gatti, signed an order levelling a €150 fine for non-compliance.

Mayor Gatti said, "We will give principals time to adjust, but then the order will be respected."

In a statement published on the municipality's website, the mayor referred to the ECHR decision, saying, "We believe that the crucifix is a symbolic expression in Italy of the religious origin of such important civic values as tolerance, mutual respect, enhancement of the person, freedom, solidarity and rejection of any discrimination."

"I believe I have decided the right thing. I have always seen crucifixes in schools and I believe we should have respect for our traditions and defend them against those who do not even know what they're talking about," Gatti said.
 
The mayor of Priverno in the province of Latina, Lazio, central Italy, signed an order which provides for the maintenance of crucifixes in classrooms of primary schools throughout the municipality. Mayor Umberto Macci, instructed the municipal police to check that crucifixes are in place, with non-compliance to be fined €500. Citing 1924 and 1927 regulations on school furniture, which provided for the display of crucifixes in schools, the mayor said they are "an expression of fundamental civic values and Italian cultural values."

The mayor of Ascoli Piceno in the in the Marche region near the central east coast, said the crucifix expresses "in a symbolic way, the origin of religious values of the republican constitution. I am referring to freedom, mutual respect, appreciation of the person, solidarity and the rejection of any discrimination."

Mayor Guido Castelli cited state laws that agreed the display of crucifixes in classrooms "does not seem open to criticism over the principle of secularism" of the Italian State.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government
KEYWORDS: catholic; crucifix; eu; italy; orthodox
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1 posted on 11/17/2009 10:39:54 AM PST by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...
Catholic Ping
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list


2 posted on 11/17/2009 10:41:16 AM PST by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer

Fabrizio Quattrocchi’s culture. He didn’t come out of nowhere. I have no idea what his religious beliefs were, but his courage was unquestionable.


3 posted on 11/17/2009 10:43:21 AM PST by nina0113
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To: NYer

The mayor of Priverno in the province of Latina, Lazio, central Italy, signed an order which provides for the maintenance of crucifixes in classrooms of primary schools throughout the municipality.


as much as i despise the ruling of the “european court” but is this guy willing to pay the fine Italy will definitely get for not comparing to this rules out of his own pocket too?


4 posted on 11/17/2009 10:44:26 AM PST by darkside321
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To: darkside321
as much as i despise the ruling of the “european court” but is this guy willing to pay the fine Italy will definitely get for not comparing to this rules out of his own pocket too?

If you don't stand up for what you believe in, they will steamroll you into the ground. Here is a famous statement attributed to the German anti-Nazi activist, Pastor Martin Niemöller.

In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me —
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

5 posted on 11/17/2009 10:51:50 AM PST by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer

‘National Reich Church’ drawn up during the war by Rosenberg, an outspoken pagan...
excerpt:
“The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible in Germany...’”

“On the altars there must be nothing but ‘Mein Kampf’ (to the German nation and therefore to God the most sacred book) and to the left of the altar a sword.

“On the day of its foundation, the Christian Cross must be removed from all churches, cathedrals and chapels...and it must be superseded by the only unconquerable symbol, the swastika.”


6 posted on 11/17/2009 10:53:08 AM PST by Marty62 (former Marty60)
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To: darkside321
Yea, look how well it did for our country to kowtow to the likes of the ACLU. I guess it is just better to be a coward and let other countries over rule your culture.
7 posted on 11/17/2009 10:56:43 AM PST by Angry_White_Man_Syndrome
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To: NYer

If you don’t stand up for what you believe in, they will steamroll you into the ground...


there is nothing wrong in stand up for what you believe. but in this case all others will be forced to pay for what he believes. this is why i asked if he is willing to pay the fine on his own. and it should be noticed that this guy is free (as every other citizen of italy to fight against this “ruling” in the European court) of course it would take his money this time to fight for what he believes. btw. Italy SHOULD fight against this in the EU court.


8 posted on 11/17/2009 10:57:27 AM PST by darkside321
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To: NYer

these elitists just do not understand the normal general population.

When you tell a group they cannot do something which they hold dear to their hearts then they will do it even more.

Good for these mayors and I wish we had some like that .
What our cowards do not understand is that when they make a stand like this then more folks will respect them instead they take the PC way (which helps to kill people)


9 posted on 11/17/2009 10:58:19 AM PST by manc (Marriage is between a man and a woman, end of. -end racism end affirmative action)
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To: NYer

I’d put crosses everywhere. Put one at 12-oclock on every clock in the school.


10 posted on 11/17/2009 10:59:33 AM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: darkside321

don’t pay the fine

what are the EU clowns going to do
?,Come in and jail everyone, no course not nor are they going to jail anyone either.

Maybe the clowns who do not want crosses should look more to the mosques getting built with saudi money and are being used as recruitment places plus spreading their hate and bigotry


11 posted on 11/17/2009 11:00:55 AM PST by manc (Marriage is between a man and a woman, end of. -end racism end affirmative action)
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To: manc

don’t pay the fine

what are the EU clowns going to do
?,Come in and jail everyone, no course not nor are they going to jail anyone either.

Maybe the clowns who do not want crosses should look more to the mosques getting built with saudi money and are being used as recruitment places plus spreading their hate and bigotry


you are joking arn´t you? so what do you think the EU is? some joke where a country can be in if it fits for the moment and if it don´t just say no? sounds nice but could not be further away from reality. Italy is bound to this “club” by countless, laws,rules, treaties.... there are hundret of ways how the EU can punish Italy if they want.


12 posted on 11/17/2009 11:07:14 AM PST by darkside321
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To: darkside321

You really think that the EU will be looking to punish Italy if they do not pay a fine for putting a cross up?

If so and they do, then it’s no wonder I left there and came here.


13 posted on 11/17/2009 11:09:54 AM PST by manc (Marriage is between a man and a woman, end of. -end racism end affirmative action)
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To: Secret Agent Man

there would be crosses on walls, buildings, in shops. around my neck, earrings. on clothes etc.


14 posted on 11/17/2009 11:11:10 AM PST by manc (Marriage is between a man and a woman, end of. -end racism end affirmative action)
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To: manc

You really think that the EU will be looking to punish Italy if they do not pay a fine for putting a cross up?


definitely!!! this is not even open to discussion. Italy has accepted the EU court as highest instance and there for they will enforce this without a blink of an eye.


15 posted on 11/17/2009 11:15:09 AM PST by darkside321
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To: NYer

Isn’t the cross just a symbol of ancient Roman capital punishment?


16 posted on 11/17/2009 11:15:40 AM PST by tractorman
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To: darkside321

if true what you say then no wonder I left


17 posted on 11/17/2009 11:22:18 AM PST by manc (Marriage is between a man and a woman, end of. -end racism end affirmative action)
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To: NYer
....the display of crucifixes violated the religious rights of pupils.

Uh-huh. Non Catholic students.

Now...who might those students be? Hmmm?

Jewish students? Nope. They generally don't have a problem with a crucifix.
Hindu students? Nah.
Bhuddist students? Uh-uh.
Shinto?
Mayans?
Aztecs?
Zoroastrians?
Venezuelan Beaver Cheesers?

We all know who this very sensitive minority is, don't we?

18 posted on 11/17/2009 11:23:26 AM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts (An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.)
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To: manc

this is definitely true. happens on daily bases all over the EU countries. you either battle it out again in a european court room (this is still possible for italy), or you better agree, and if not “feel free to” hand over millions of euros to the EU till the day you finally agree to this decision.
but i´m glad to hear that you like it in your new country.


19 posted on 11/17/2009 11:30:22 AM PST by darkside321
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To: darkside321

love and proud of it.

I will not stand idly by and see this great country go the same way as Europe.
One would think that the left would learn from mistakes but it seems they do not.

As for health care then I am shocked how those on the left keep saying how Govt health care is great, maybe they should go and live under it and then have a say about it.


20 posted on 11/17/2009 11:37:53 AM PST by manc (Marriage is between a man and a woman, end of. -end racism end affirmative action)
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To: NYer

Good for them. We in this country need to start defying these bigoted laws the same way.


21 posted on 11/17/2009 11:39:01 AM PST by IronJack (=)
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To: nina0113

My Italian relatives would be very happy to hear you say this.


22 posted on 11/17/2009 11:41:12 AM PST by William Tell 2
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To: NYer

This raises the whole issue of sovereignty.

In the 20th century, the word pretty well lost its meaning. A “sovereign nation” was any nation that the UN agreed to recognize.

But in traditional international law, sovereignty means two things: the ability to defend yourself against attack or invasion, and the ability to maintain the rule of law within your borders.

Is Italy a sovereign state? Yes. They have an army and a navy and they have police.

Is the EU a sovereign state? Well, the countries of Europe have agreed to recognize them. But where’s their army? How will they enforce this decision if Italy and Poland and probably several other countries refuse to obey it or to pay the fines?

The EU tends to be a totalitarian bureaucracy that imposes rules without worrying much how people will like them. But they would be wise to avoid imposing laws which they cannot enforce. That could potentially undermine their authority and even bring the EU down, if they aren’t careful.

The EU does have economic sanctions. But can they afford to threaten Italy with such sanctions over a ruling like this?

Their easiest out would be to reverse this ruling on appeal.


23 posted on 11/17/2009 11:44:35 AM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: IronJack
We in this country need to start defying these bigoted laws the same way.

And there you have the REAL reason I voted for Bob McDonnell - he's quite capable of telling the Feds where to get off.

24 posted on 11/17/2009 11:46:30 AM PST by nina0113
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To: NYer

Forza Italia!

The Republican Party can take a lesson from them.

As far as EU fines are concerned that’s not true. The ECHR doesn’t have the power to do that neither does the Council of Ministers who enforce the ECHR rulings.


25 posted on 11/17/2009 11:46:47 AM PST by William Tell 2
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To: Cicero

The court cannot levy fines. They must go to the council of ministers and the only thing they can do is expel the member.

Where did this person get this idea about fines of millions of euros?


26 posted on 11/17/2009 11:48:23 AM PST by William Tell 2
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To: manc

love and proud of it.

I will not stand idly by and see this great country go the same way as Europe.
One would think that the left would learn from mistakes but it seems they do not.

As for health care then I am shocked how those on the left keep saying how Govt health care is great, maybe they should go and live under it and then have a say about it...


i like the US too. nice place to spend time. But i have to say i really like living in “my” part of europe too. it´s not all bad here. AHH please don´t ask me today on governmental health care because today i really may sound like a lefty :-) (even i have a private insurance). i really don´t know about the US version of governmental health care but i really have to say the form of “governmental” health care we have here REALLY works. and this is a personal experience from a local dentist today :-)


27 posted on 11/17/2009 11:53:26 AM PST by darkside321
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To: NYer
The November 3rd ECHR ruling, made in response to a complaint by an Italian secularist campaigner...

Appeal to all Freepers in Italy and Europe...

Surely, the name of this "Italian Secularist" is already known.

What is the name of this nutjob who would rule over nations, with the help of a third rate group in a third rate country?

If despotism from whatever source has no consequences, we are sure to get more of it.

28 posted on 11/17/2009 11:54:25 AM PST by Publius6961 (…he's not America, he's an employee who hasn't risen to minimal expectations.)
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To: NYer

Bravo to the mayors.

If freedom is not defended, the freedom is taken away.

Let’s hope this leads to disintegration of the new Evil Empire of European Union.


29 posted on 11/17/2009 11:56:57 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: NYer

Crumble, Crumble, toil and tumble.
Leftist dribble scores a fumble.

Euro-Union Court turns into a fool.
For ruling to keep Crucifix out of school.


30 posted on 11/17/2009 11:59:26 AM PST by HighlyOpinionated (Abortion-Euthanasia kills the very people for whom Social Justice is needed.)
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To: HighlyOpinionated
Image and video hosting by TinyPic
31 posted on 11/17/2009 12:02:06 PM PST by Publius6961 (…he's not America, he's an employee who hasn't risen to minimal expectations.)
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To: NYer
The reaction from Poland has touched a national nerve in a country where crucifixes and other religious symbols were banned under the atheistic communist rule and are now a prominent symbol of national sovereignty.

We would ALL do well to remember the type who calls for these sorts of religious intolerance.

32 posted on 11/17/2009 12:10:10 PM PST by GCC Catholic (0bama, what are you hiding? Just show us the birth certificate...)
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To: nina0113
They should make teaching about Fabrizio Quattrocchi mandatory at higher grade levels, too, possibly including showing the video of his death. It's a great lesson all around.
33 posted on 11/17/2009 12:12:09 PM PST by Question_Assumptions
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To: William Tell 2

The court cannot levy fines. They must go to the council of ministers and the only thing they can do is expel the member.

Where did this person get this idea about fines of millions of euros?


well first. no offence but why don´t you just ask me where from i have this “idea” instead of asking someone else about my oppinion? so the court can not levy fines? sorry but this is totaly wrong. this court is the accepted (from all member states) highest juristic instance in the EU. it ranks above every form of national court of a member state. while it´s correct that the court can not expell a member (this can only be done from other member states) the court has every right to enforce its LAW BINDING rule. this means as every court they are able to use sanctions like monetary fines... or what ever they find nessersary (and is written in the book of law) to enforce their rule if you don´t accept or are not willing to follow their decision.
sorry but this is a fact.


34 posted on 11/17/2009 12:19:52 PM PST by darkside321
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To: darkside321

OK so you wanted me to ask you where you got this idea. Then you asked yourself because I didn’t and you still haven’t provided an answer.

Don’t tell me I’m wrong until you cite your source. Mine is the Committee of Ministers, Council of Europe website. They say that the ultimate responsibility for enforcing judgments is the state.

It’s like the UN.


35 posted on 11/17/2009 12:54:43 PM PST by William Tell 2
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To: Question_Assumptions

Can you even GET the video? Google says AlJazeera wouldn’t play it.


36 posted on 11/17/2009 1:08:32 PM PST by nina0113
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To: NYer

Hey Nyer you know what I found out it is Italian mom who want secular education for her kid she is divorcee mom I want to know what her ex husband think

I thought crufix and Italian mothers go together that not UN PC what I saying that what I thought I hear about this lady gripe on UK Daily mail on Sunday cycles few months ago


37 posted on 11/17/2009 1:11:15 PM PST by SevenofNine ("We are Freepers, all your media belong to us, resistence is futile")
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To: nina0113

I’m pretty sure I’ve seen it up to the point where he gets killed, standing up, shouting, and trying to pull off the hood. And just because the mainstream media isn’t showing it doesn’t mean that the media or the Italian government doesn’t have it. I’m sure they do.


38 posted on 11/17/2009 1:12:36 PM PST by Question_Assumptions
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To: NYer
Good for them!
They're drawing a line in the sand against the Illuminati and secularism of the EU.

Like The Assisi Underground.

39 posted on 11/17/2009 1:24:47 PM PST by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: NYer

Good! It’s about time that someone grew a pair...


40 posted on 11/17/2009 1:30:32 PM PST by SuperLuminal (Where is another agitator for republicanism like Sam Adams when we need him?)
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To: William Tell 2

They say that the ultimate responsibility for enforcing judgments is the state.


so what´s the problem? since for example Italy has agreed that this court is above national law any ruling of this court does actually become Italian law. don´t get me wrong but after this decision it HAS BECOME Italian law which they have to enforce. so if italy refuses to enforce it they would be braking their own law. thats why i said they would “enforce” it without a blink of an eye because simple as long italy doesn´t win a battle in a european court it´s not even their problem any more. in this case official Italian politicians can grieve about the ruling (or as said are free to battle it in a court again) as long as they want to earn some public votes. but they shure know (even if they don´t admit it) that they have no other choice (after all this vote grabing because of the understandable public outrage is done) than to “silently” enforce this law. so yes official Italy will pay and enforce this fine (quite but “voluntary”) of course only if they lose the court battle (which they definitely secretly started as soon the EU court has ruled this way). this is not even buisness of the EU. it would only become buisness of the EU if (officially) Italy really would dare to say no and there for breaking their own law (btw. suprise suprise this was never said, guess why?) we don´t accept this ruling (even if it´s written in our own book of national law) because only then they would have a good chance to really get kicked out of EU (because 26 states are shure not willing that one state destroys everything for what they have worked for in the last 20+ years). But Italy would NEVER let this happen.


41 posted on 11/17/2009 1:34:24 PM PST by darkside321
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To: NYer

Not surprisingly, if Texas ever falls, Poland is my country of last resort.


42 posted on 11/17/2009 2:08:38 PM PST by Ro_Thunder ("Other than ending SLAVERY, FASCISM, NAZISM and COMMUNISM, war has never solved anything")
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To: darkside321

Please cite the source for your suppositions.


43 posted on 11/17/2009 2:16:43 PM PST by William Tell 2
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To: tractorman
Isn’t the cross just a symbol of ancient Roman capital punishment?

The Catholic crucifix is the ultimate symbol of the Catholic Church. The representation of Christ as Redeemer and Savior is the central theme of Christianity. The Catholic crucifix serves as a reminder of Christ’s sacrifice and love for all men. It is used to symbolize the redemption of mankind through Christ’s sacrifice. The Catholic crucifix is the central symbol of the Catholic faith; no Catholic church in the world is without one.

44 posted on 11/17/2009 3:27:32 PM PST by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
We all know who this very sensitive minority is, don't we?

Actually ... in this instance ... you may be surprised to learn that the immigrant mother wants the crucifix removed because she wants her child raised in a secular culture. That description fits most of contemporary western society, including the US. And, for what it is worth, a young Italian muslim has come to the defense of retaining crucifixes in classrooms.

Young Muslim writer defends crucifixes in Italy

45 posted on 11/17/2009 3:32:59 PM PST by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer

Pivotal times we live in.


46 posted on 11/17/2009 3:34:47 PM PST by TASMANIANRED
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To: Cicero

Excellent observations and commentary!


47 posted on 11/17/2009 3:35:21 PM PST by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer
Interesting.

I wish school officials in this country had the guts to do what they've done in Italy. Tell the lone secularist who objects to sit down and put a sock in it. When a majority of parents object, then we'll talk.

48 posted on 11/17/2009 3:43:31 PM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts (An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.)
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To: tractorman
Isn’t the cross just a symbol of ancient Roman capital punishment?

A cross lacking the corpus of Christ is a lower case "t" the symbol of ancient pagan Rome.

"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness: But unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." 1 Corinthians 23-24

49 posted on 11/17/2009 7:44:16 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: A.A. Cunningham; NYer

I agree with both of you.
I was just trying to have a little fun with the unbelievers.


50 posted on 11/18/2009 5:16:26 AM PST by tractorman
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