WHO plays down 'swine flu vaccination deaths'

afp ^ | 11/19/09 | afp

[Flavius]

The World Health Organisation said on Thursday that checks on many of the 30 deaths recorded following mass pandemic flu vaccinations had so far ruled out a direct link to the vaccines.

[TigersEye]

You might provide some evidence for your claims as well.
Where is your proof that the vaccine hasn't killed anyone?
Where is your proof that the flu has?

[TigersEye]

You quoted my question but you didn’t give an answer to it.

[mysterio]

.and I predict that it has already peaked, and that there will be fewer deaths from it than the regular flu....

I hope that your prediction is correct. I'm not convinced there won't be a resurgence, but awareness has been pushed through the roof due to the media exposure. Hopefully this will mean more people than usual get a vaccine.

Will H1N1 be a science-fiction type pandemic that leaves only a few of us walking the earth, trying to rebuild society? Almost certainly not, even though it has been portrayed in the media with a healthy dose of hyperbole. Will it kill people, and, more specifically, younger, healthy people who normally aren't in a high risk group? The data so far suggests that yes, it could certainly do that, and has. If it's causing cytokine storms, people with more healthy immune systems are at risk.

And there's a vaccine for it. Now the vaccine has become more widely available, and it's just a good idea to get the shot and avoid getting the flu. Because even if it's not a civilization-destroying superbug, it's still going to be a nasty waste of your time and health. And that's why I participate on these threads. Those who paint the vaccine as more dangerous than the flu are just flat out incorrect. If you have no egg allergy, the vaccine is the route I'd choose.

[poinq]

My family has the flu. Its not that bad as long as you have strong lungs. You get a little cough and then you feel a little achy and weak. Not so bad. You can work through it. But it keeps going and you sleep for three days. After that is when you would normally go back to work. But your not finished yet. As you start to feel better you get this hacking cough as all sorts of stuff comes up from your lungs. It takes about 5 days to get it out.

During those days you are restless and want to go back to work. And if you do, you cough all over everything and infect everyone else.

I assume those with asthma are most at risk of not having the lung power to cough it all up.

If you get it don't worry about your diet. Drink as many Jamba Juices or Gaterades as you can. You need the energy and you can't help but loose weight.

[mysterio]

Where is your proof that the vaccine hasn't killed anyone?

link

I haven't heard of a case where the cause of death was directly linked to the vaccine. However, as with the seasonal shot, there is a one case per one million dose occurrence of GBS in those who get the flu shot. Conversely, you can also get GBS after having the regular flu, so avoiding a shot does not eliminate your risk of GBS. I suppose if someone was extremely allergic to eggs and got the shot anyway, death would be a possibility. Other than that scenario, it is exceptionally unlikely.

As for how many people have died from the flu, I assume you mean the H1N1 flu.

Here's weekly tracking for the most recent week.

Here's an article about deaths from H1N1 up to this point.

[TigersEye]

I haven't heard of a case where the cause of death was directly linked to the vaccine. However, as with the seasonal shot, there is a one case per one million dose occurrence of GBS in those who get the flu shot. Conversely, you can also get GBS after having the regular flu, so avoiding a shot does not eliminate your risk of GBS.

If you can say there is no direct link to the vaccine for GBS then it would follow that there is no direct link between having the flu to GBS. Is that not correct?

[TigersEye]

GENEVA - The World Health Organization on Thursday ruled out swine flu vaccine as the cause of death in 41 people who had received the flu shot.

If you were offering that link as the proof that the vaccine has not caused any deaths it is a little light in the proof area. The statement above is the only statement at the link that addresses it. It is an absolute that rests solely on the status of the World Health Organization for its credibility.

It is completely lacking in any explanatory cause and effect analysis. It relies on belief in the WHO. Belief is not a scientific protocol. (it didn't used to be anyway)

[mysterio]

If you can say there is no direct link to the vaccine for GBS then it would follow that there is no direct link between having the flu to GBS. Is that not correct?

There is a one case per one million dose occurrence of GBS in relation to the flu vaccine. You can also get GBS after having the actual flu.

link

[mysterio]

If you were offering that link as the proof that the vaccine has not caused any deaths it is a little light in the proof area.

But if I were to post an anti-vaccine blog link or a youtube vid that claimed the vaccine was a nefarious plot designed to kill you, you'd accept it whole cloth. lol

Here's a good vaccine safety resource, complete with a vaccine adverse event reporting system: link

[TigersEye]

But if I were to post an anti-vaccine blog link or a youtube vid that claimed the vaccine was a nefarious plot designed to kill you, you'd accept it whole cloth. lol

Making baseless assumptions like that is exactly why I can't take anything you say seriously. That and your complete lack of proof for your absolute statements which are not the kind of statements someone representing a serious scientific POV would make.

[TigersEye]

There is a one case per one million dose occurrence of GBS in relation to the flu vaccine. You can also get GBS after having the actual flu.

There is nothing at that link that gives a basis for establishing a causal relationship to acquiring GBS to either the vaccine or to having the flu.

[mysterio]

There is nothing at that link that gives a basis for establishing a causal relationship to acquiring GBS to either the vaccine or to having the flu.

Usually Guillain-Barré occurs a few days or weeks after the patient has had symptoms of a respiratory or gastrointestinal viral infection. Occasionally, surgery or vaccinations will trigger the syndrome.

And I'll post this article for the fourth time.

[SaraJohnson]

The government is denying all deaths due to the vaccine as having been caused by the vaccine. It is standard procedure. They did the same thing in 1976 and with Gulf War Syndrome. You will not find out the truth from the government since this is the government’s baby. Medicine with swine flu is mostly politics and public manipulation.

[TigersEye]

Usually Guillain-Barré occurs a few days or weeks after the patient has had symptoms of a respiratory or gastrointestinal viral infection. Occasionally, surgery or vaccinations will trigger the syndrome.

There is nothing at that statement that gives a basis for establishing a causal relationship to acquiring GBS to any of those things either.

There is nothing in the article at that link that proves or disproves a link between the vaccine and GBS. I don't think you understand the difference between correlation and causation or the difference between anecdotal evidence and establishing a direct causal linkage.

[TigersEye]

Where is your proof of any of that?

[mysterio]

You are correct that the exact mechanism of GBS is still being studied and hasn't been outlined definitively.

When Guillain-Barré is preceded by a viral or bacterial infection, it is possible that the virus has changed the nature of cells in the nervous system so that the immune system treats them as foreign cells. It is also possible that the virus makes the immune system itself less discriminating about what cells it recognizes as its own, allowing some of the immune cells, such as certain kinds of lymphocytes and macrophages, to attack the myelin. Sensitized T lymphocytes cooperate with B lymphocytes to produce antibodies against components of the myelin sheath and may contribute to destruction of the myelin. Scientists are investigating these and other possibilities to find why the immune system goes awry in Guillain-Barré syndrome and other autoimmune diseases. The cause and course of Guillain-Barré syndrome is an active area of neurological investigation, incorporating the cooperative efforts of neurological scientists, immunologists, and virologists.

But the instances of occurrence in those who have had a flu vaccine is one case per million doses. Whether the flu shot is even causing that one case has yet to be "proven."

So, basically, when the anti-vaccine woo-woos run around spouting that the flu shot will probably give you GBS, they are incorrect.

[TigersEye]

So, basically, when the anti-vaccine woo-woos run around spouting that the flu shot will probably give you GBS, they are incorrect.

If they say it probably will they are definitely incorrect. If they say it possibly will they might be correct. Or not. No proof either way.

Congratulations! You have managed to lead this exchange miles away from the two questions I originally asked you. ;-)

[mysterio]

If they say it probably will they are definitely incorrect. If they say it possibly will they might be correct. Or not. No proof either way.

No, even the correlation numbers only point to one case per million doses. So if they claim the risk is higher than that, they are incorrect. The numbers aren't there to support that.

Once researchers make progress in outlining the mechanism of GBS, we'll understand more. But that has no bearing on the fact that only one person per million is contracting the disease after a flu vaccine. When you weigh that risk against the multitude of risks of having the actual flu, getting the vaccine is the clear choice for those who aren't allergic to eggs.

And in the coming years, vaccine production will most likely move away from the egg model and more towards a cell culture model. That will remove the obstacle for those who are allergic to eggs.

[TigersEye]

Your first straightforward reply so far. Very good!

[SaraJohnson]

The government(s) - CDC and WHO is running the show on the swine flu. Do you need proof for that? CDC is coordinating and distributing the vaccine and they are doing that without the usual clinical trials and testing. This is common knowledge by now - do you need proof of that?
The Congress gave the vaccine companies immunity from law suits should their improperly tested vaccine cause damage to citizen. This is common knowledge - do you need proff of that? There are many who question the need for the risk of the vaccine given the low death rate (risk) of the flu but the government has decided to inject the public anyway. Do you need proff for that? Finally the CDC collects the data on any adverse effects from the vaccine. In summary, the government is totally responsible for the vaccine and is totally responsible if it harms citizens and collecting the data to prove it.

Have you ever seen the government take responsibility for it’s screw ups or manipulate data to cover their asses or to manipulate the public? Does the global warming fraud data recently exposed by a hacker mean anything to you? How about the crashing of the banks to give low income housing loans to people with no money? Anybody admit this in the government yet?

After forcing the swine ful vaccine in a major government scare campaign on the public in 1976, many people were injured by the vaccine; more than were harmed by the flu the government feared. The government denied the reports the vaccine was injuring people. Ron Paul - a doctor in Congress at the time - among others raised holy smokes and the President stopped the flu shot campaign. But many were injured before the government finally stopped and listened to the public experiencing the “isolated incidents” of being sickened, killed and paralyzed by the swine ful vaccine. I both lived through this event and have read articles about it at the onset of this pandemic.

I lived through the gulf war saga where soldiers were sickened and killed by the military’s vaccine program. I have a brother-in-law, retired marine, who still suffers from the consequences of the anthrax vaccine. We watched as the government denied and denied their vaccine had anything to do with all these soldiers being sickened until finally - years later the truth came out. They denied these vets care claiming nothing the military did caused their illness.

Currently we have many women experiencing spontaneous misscarriages days after receiving the current swine flu vaccine. They are told they are nuts - the vaccine did not cause them losing their children but the ladies don’t believe that. We have many people who have come down with the flu after getting the nose spray vaccine and told they got the flu before they got the vaccine or before the vaccine took hold, but not from the vaccine. They are not beleiving it. Some adults and some children have died from the ful their parents and relatives think they got from the vaccine. Others have had neurological damage from the vaccine. The CDC denies their damage is caused by the vaccine.

The vaccine is harming people but we don’t how how much and we don’t know if the harm the vaccine is causing is more than what the swine flu is causing. To get the data on the harm of this vaccine, like the gulf war vets, like the l976 vaccine victims, you will not get the information from the government when the government initiates the vaccine programs. It will be gathered by citizens - as is currently happening on the internet - and the story told later.