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Kennedy dispute reveals divide among Catholics
Associated Press ^ | Mon Nov 23, 9:18 am ET | RAY HENRY

Posted on 11/23/2009 9:56:26 AM PST by Bullpine

EAST PROVIDENCE, R.I. – A bitter dispute over abortion that prompted Rhode Island's Roman Catholic bishop to ask Rep. Patrick Kennedy not to receive Holy Communion has revealed the depth of the divide among Catholics over how politicians should reconcile their faith with their public duties.

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: Rhode Island
KEYWORDS: abortion; catholic; catholicpoliticians; communion; schism; senate
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Todays Headlines: Stabenow says she would not support Stupak amendment‎. Reform movement: Don't include Stupak amendment in Senate bill‎ Democrats split on Abortion amendment to Health Care Plan

Will these Catholics disregard Stupak amendment ?

If so, church discipline demands their Bishops give them the word: " No Communion For You". Catholic Senators: Begich (D-AK), Dodd (D-CT), Kaufman (D-CT), Durbin (D-IL), Harkin (D-IA), Landrieu (D- LA), Collins (R-ME), Mikulski (D-MD), Kerry (D-MA), McCaskill (D-MO), Menendez (D-NJ), Gillibrand (D-NY), Reed (D-RI), Leahy (D-VT), Cantwell (D-WA), Murray (D-WA).

Murkowski (R-AK), Martinez (R-FL), Risch (R-ID), Brownback (R-KS), Bunning (R-KY), Vitter (R-LA), Johanns(R-NE), Voinovich (R-OH), and Casey (D-PA).

1 posted on 11/23/2009 9:56:28 AM PST by Bullpine
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To: Bullpine

what divide?

either you`re Catholic or you`re not

if you`re pro-death, you`re not

simple


2 posted on 11/23/2009 9:58:31 AM PST by Para-Ord.45
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To: Bullpine

I don’t see how any Catholic could possibly support a democrat.


3 posted on 11/23/2009 10:00:05 AM PST by South Hawthorne (In Memory of my Dear Friend Henry Lee II)
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To: Bullpine
For a great many politicians, their religion means nothing except in so far as it helps them project a good image.

Those politicians who do take their religion seriously (ex. Sarah Palin) are immediately targetted for destruction.

4 posted on 11/23/2009 10:00:22 AM PST by ClearCase_guy (Play the Race Card -- lose the game.)
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To: Bullpine
Dunno. After this weekend it looks like every dogone one of the Democrat Catholics, and the rest for that matter, are willing to jump off the cliff for Obamacare. I don't get it, but there it is.
5 posted on 11/23/2009 10:02:16 AM PST by colorado tanker (What's it all about, Barrrrry? Is it just for the power, you live?)
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What it revealed was the lengths Patrick would go to to harm the Church.


6 posted on 11/23/2009 10:02:24 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Para-Ord.45

“if you`re pro-death, you`re not”

Bingo. I remember a Cross Fire where the was a nun and a priest debating why a woman can’t be a priest. The nun went on and on until the priest said, if you believe what you say, you’re not a Catholic, go see the Episcopalians. A while later Pope Paul excommunicated a nun for heresy.

What does Kennedy care if he goes to hell? He’ll be joining the rest of his degenerate family.


7 posted on 11/23/2009 10:02:35 AM PST by y6162 (uish..)
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To: Owl_Eagle

I’m glad the Catholic bishops have finally discovered their faith. I left the church long ago after watching Teddy Kennedy kill a woman, buy himself out of it, then divorce a wife of many years - all the time watching the church turn a blind eye to this sleazebag.

To me, a Kennedy is slime. Pure slime. Allowing slime at the communion rail is not tolerable.


8 posted on 11/23/2009 10:03:21 AM PST by Da Coyote
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To: Para-Ord.45

It is not that simple. I am not Catholic. But I have many Catholic friends who are pro choice. They are divided about this. Saying they are not Catholic does not make it so. They consider themselves Catholic and that is all that matters. It is not up to us to say if they are or they are not.


9 posted on 11/23/2009 10:03:41 AM PST by DallasSun (i believe in separation of church and hate.)
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To: Para-Ord.45

Yes, there is no divide here, Abortion is murder according to the Catholic faith, period. I know leftists don’t like it, but its not a grey area its not debateable.

If you are a Catholic, then you believe life begins and conception period, and you cannot support abortion in any form and be honest and truthful to your faith.

So, you are Catholic or you aren’t, and if you do not view abortion as murder, and engage in actions that encourage or allow it in any fashion, you aren’t Catholic. There is no debate here. And if you are not Catholic, you should not receive communion.


10 posted on 11/23/2009 10:05:09 AM PST by HamiltonJay
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To: Bullpine
There is no divide.

If you disagree with Catholic dogma, you're not a Catholic.

You practice some sort of bastardized, homemade religion.

11 posted on 11/23/2009 10:05:30 AM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (Ask not what the Kennedys can do for you, but what you can do for the Kennedys.)
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To: Bullpine

“If you’re required (by the church) to make everybody follow your Catholic role, then nobody would vote for Catholics because it’s clear that when you get the authority, you’re going to be guided by your faith,” the former governor told the AP.”

So, in other words, you have to let your core values and beliefs go by the wayside if you’re going to be a politician....to sell your soul! I guess character really doesn’t matter. How well you pander is the key! Our founders are spinning so violently in their graves, I’ll be surprised if the earth doesn’t spin off it’s axis!

Bless you, Bishop Tobin! Finally, ACTION (above and beyond the posturing)is beginning to take place!

Militant


12 posted on 11/23/2009 10:08:40 AM PST by militant2 (I may not agree with everything you say, but......hell, I don't agree with anything you say!)
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To: DallasSun

Uh, yes it does. If they are Pro-Choice, they are not Catholic.

Let me make this simple for you, in the Catholic faith, life begins at conception, there is no pro-choice stand as a Catholic, to claim to be Pro-Choice as a catholic is to be Pro-Murder, period.

If you believe this you are not Catholic, you can sit in the pew every sunday all you want, but you are not a practicing Catholic, no matter how much you dillude yourself to the contrary.

Considering oneself Catholic does not make one Catholic.. I can “consider” myself African-American, but that does not make it so. Your “catholic” friends that are pro-choice, are living completely at odds with the Catholic faith, so by very definition they are not Cathlic, no matter what they “consider” themselves.


13 posted on 11/23/2009 10:09:28 AM PST by HamiltonJay
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To: DallasSun
They consider themselves Catholic and that is all that matters. It is not up to us to say if they are or they are not.

It is up to the Church to say whether or not someone is in communion with it. The individual's opinion is irrelevant.

14 posted on 11/23/2009 10:09:50 AM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla (a wild-eyed, exclusionist, birther religio-beast -- Daily Kos)
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To: DallasSun

“It is not that simple.”

Yeah, it really is that simple. In an issue such as this, there is a clear line to be drawn. Call yourself what you want to....if you support abortion, you are not a Catholic.

Militant


15 posted on 11/23/2009 10:12:09 AM PST by militant2 (I may not agree with everything you say, but......hell, I don't agree with anything you say!)
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla

Absolutely.


16 posted on 11/23/2009 10:13:30 AM PST by DallasSun (i believe in separation of church and hate.)
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To: militant2

As I said, I am not Catholic. Many of the friends I have who are Catholic have spoken to their priests about their beliefs. Their priests did not refust to offer them communion. They know their beliefs. They certainly struggle with it, understandably. I do understand your point.


17 posted on 11/23/2009 10:17:32 AM PST by DallasSun (i believe in separation of church and hate.)
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To: HamiltonJay

As I said, I am not Catholic. You write as though you are. So you certainly know more about this than I.


18 posted on 11/23/2009 10:26:46 AM PST by DallasSun (i believe in separation of church and hate.)
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To: DallasSun

You are correct to say it is not that simple. The Church does not assert that those who reject the Church’s teaching on abortion are not Catholic. What the Church says is that they are not in full communion, or unity, with the Church.

This excerpt from Bishop Tobin’s letter to Kennedy more fully explains it:

(you write) “The fact that I disagree with the hierarchy on some issues does not make me any less of a Catholic.” Well, in fact, Congressman, in a way it does. Although I wouldn’t choose those particular words, when someone rejects the teachings of the Church, especially on a grave matter, a life-and-death issue like abortion, it certainly does diminish their ecclesial communion, their unity with the Church. This principle is based on the Sacred Scripture and Tradition of the Church and is made more explicit in recent documents.

For example, the “Code of Canon Law” says, “Lay persons are bound by an obligation and possess the right to acquire a knowledge of Christian doctrine adapted to their capacity and condition so that they can live in accord with that doctrine.” (Canon 229, #1)

The “Catechism of the Catholic Church” says this: “Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles, ‘He who hears you, hears me,’ the faithful receive with docility the teaching and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.” (#87)

Or consider this statement of the Church: “It would be a mistake to confuse the proper autonomy exercised by Catholics in political life with the claim of a principle that prescinds from the moral and social teaching of the Church.” (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 2002)

There’s lots of canonical and theological verbiage there, Congressman, but what it means is that if you don’t accept the teachings of the Church your communion with the Church is flawed, or in your own words, makes you “less of a Catholic.”

But let’s get down to a more practical question; let’s approach it this way: What does it mean, really, to be a Catholic? After all, being a Catholic has to mean something, right?

Well, in simple terms – and here I refer only to those more visible, structural elements of Church membership – being a Catholic means that you’re part of a faith community that possesses a clearly defined authority and doctrine, obligations and expectations. It means that you believe and accept the teachings of the Church, especially on essential matters of faith and morals; that you belong to a local Catholic community, a parish; that you attend Mass on Sundays and receive the sacraments regularly; that you support the Church, personally, publicly, spiritually and financially.

Congressman, I’m not sure whether or not you fulfill the basic requirements of being a Catholic, so let me ask: Do you accept the teachings of the Church on essential matters of faith and morals, including our stance on abortion? Do you belong to a local Catholic community, a parish? Do you attend Mass on Sundays and receive the sacraments regularly? Do you support the Church, personally, publicly, spiritually and financially?

In your letter you say that you “embrace your faith.” Terrific. But if you don’t fulfill the basic requirements of membership, what is it exactly that makes you a Catholic? Your baptism as an infant? Your family ties? Your cultural heritage?

Your letter also says that your faith “acknowledges the existence of an imperfect humanity.” Absolutely true. But in confronting your rejection of the Church’s teaching, we’re not dealing just with “an imperfect humanity” – as we do when we wrestle with sins such as anger, pride, greed, impurity or dishonesty. We all struggle with those things, and often fail.

Your rejection of the Church’s teaching on abortion falls into a different category – it’s a deliberate and obstinate act of the will; a conscious decision that you’ve re-affirmed on many occasions. Sorry, you can’t chalk it up to an “imperfect humanity.” Your position is unacceptable to the Church and scandalous to many of our members. It absolutely diminishes your communion with the Church.

Congressman Kennedy, I write these words not to embarrass you or to judge the state of your conscience or soul. That’s ultimately between you and God. But your description of your relationship with the Church is now a matter of public record, and it needs to be challenged. I invite you, as your bishop and brother in Christ, to enter into a sincere process of discernment, conversion and repentance. It’s not too late for you to repair your relationship with the Church, redeem your public image, and emerge as an authentic “profile in courage,” especially by defending the sanctity of human life for all people, including unborn children. And if I can ever be of assistance as you travel the road of faith, I would be honored and happy to do so.


19 posted on 11/23/2009 10:28:06 AM PST by rwa265 (Christ my Cornerstone)
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To: rwa265

An excellent and thoughtful reply. Thank you.


20 posted on 11/23/2009 10:29:42 AM PST by DallasSun (i believe in separation of church and hate.)
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