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Kennedy dispute reveals divide among Catholics
Associated Press ^ | Mon Nov 23, 9:18 am ET | RAY HENRY

Posted on 11/23/2009 9:56:26 AM PST by Bullpine

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Todays Headlines: Stabenow says she would not support Stupak amendment‎. Reform movement: Don't include Stupak amendment in Senate bill‎ Democrats split on Abortion amendment to Health Care Plan

Will these Catholics disregard Stupak amendment ?

If so, church discipline demands their Bishops give them the word: " No Communion For You". Catholic Senators: Begich (D-AK), Dodd (D-CT), Kaufman (D-CT), Durbin (D-IL), Harkin (D-IA), Landrieu (D- LA), Collins (R-ME), Mikulski (D-MD), Kerry (D-MA), McCaskill (D-MO), Menendez (D-NJ), Gillibrand (D-NY), Reed (D-RI), Leahy (D-VT), Cantwell (D-WA), Murray (D-WA).

Murkowski (R-AK), Martinez (R-FL), Risch (R-ID), Brownback (R-KS), Bunning (R-KY), Vitter (R-LA), Johanns(R-NE), Voinovich (R-OH), and Casey (D-PA).

1 posted on 11/23/2009 9:56:28 AM PST by Bullpine
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To: Bullpine

what divide?

either you`re Catholic or you`re not

if you`re pro-death, you`re not

simple


2 posted on 11/23/2009 9:58:31 AM PST by Para-Ord.45
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To: Bullpine

I don’t see how any Catholic could possibly support a democrat.


3 posted on 11/23/2009 10:00:05 AM PST by South Hawthorne (In Memory of my Dear Friend Henry Lee II)
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To: Bullpine
For a great many politicians, their religion means nothing except in so far as it helps them project a good image.

Those politicians who do take their religion seriously (ex. Sarah Palin) are immediately targetted for destruction.

4 posted on 11/23/2009 10:00:22 AM PST by ClearCase_guy (Play the Race Card -- lose the game.)
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To: Bullpine
Dunno. After this weekend it looks like every dogone one of the Democrat Catholics, and the rest for that matter, are willing to jump off the cliff for Obamacare. I don't get it, but there it is.
5 posted on 11/23/2009 10:02:16 AM PST by colorado tanker (What's it all about, Barrrrry? Is it just for the power, you live?)
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What it revealed was the lengths Patrick would go to to harm the Church.


6 posted on 11/23/2009 10:02:24 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Para-Ord.45

“if you`re pro-death, you`re not”

Bingo. I remember a Cross Fire where the was a nun and a priest debating why a woman can’t be a priest. The nun went on and on until the priest said, if you believe what you say, you’re not a Catholic, go see the Episcopalians. A while later Pope Paul excommunicated a nun for heresy.

What does Kennedy care if he goes to hell? He’ll be joining the rest of his degenerate family.


7 posted on 11/23/2009 10:02:35 AM PST by y6162 (uish..)
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To: Owl_Eagle

I’m glad the Catholic bishops have finally discovered their faith. I left the church long ago after watching Teddy Kennedy kill a woman, buy himself out of it, then divorce a wife of many years - all the time watching the church turn a blind eye to this sleazebag.

To me, a Kennedy is slime. Pure slime. Allowing slime at the communion rail is not tolerable.


8 posted on 11/23/2009 10:03:21 AM PST by Da Coyote
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To: Para-Ord.45

It is not that simple. I am not Catholic. But I have many Catholic friends who are pro choice. They are divided about this. Saying they are not Catholic does not make it so. They consider themselves Catholic and that is all that matters. It is not up to us to say if they are or they are not.


9 posted on 11/23/2009 10:03:41 AM PST by DallasSun (i believe in separation of church and hate.)
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To: Para-Ord.45

Yes, there is no divide here, Abortion is murder according to the Catholic faith, period. I know leftists don’t like it, but its not a grey area its not debateable.

If you are a Catholic, then you believe life begins and conception period, and you cannot support abortion in any form and be honest and truthful to your faith.

So, you are Catholic or you aren’t, and if you do not view abortion as murder, and engage in actions that encourage or allow it in any fashion, you aren’t Catholic. There is no debate here. And if you are not Catholic, you should not receive communion.


10 posted on 11/23/2009 10:05:09 AM PST by HamiltonJay
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To: Bullpine
There is no divide.

If you disagree with Catholic dogma, you're not a Catholic.

You practice some sort of bastardized, homemade religion.

11 posted on 11/23/2009 10:05:30 AM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (Ask not what the Kennedys can do for you, but what you can do for the Kennedys.)
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To: Bullpine

“If you’re required (by the church) to make everybody follow your Catholic role, then nobody would vote for Catholics because it’s clear that when you get the authority, you’re going to be guided by your faith,” the former governor told the AP.”

So, in other words, you have to let your core values and beliefs go by the wayside if you’re going to be a politician....to sell your soul! I guess character really doesn’t matter. How well you pander is the key! Our founders are spinning so violently in their graves, I’ll be surprised if the earth doesn’t spin off it’s axis!

Bless you, Bishop Tobin! Finally, ACTION (above and beyond the posturing)is beginning to take place!

Militant


12 posted on 11/23/2009 10:08:40 AM PST by militant2 (I may not agree with everything you say, but......hell, I don't agree with anything you say!)
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To: DallasSun

Uh, yes it does. If they are Pro-Choice, they are not Catholic.

Let me make this simple for you, in the Catholic faith, life begins at conception, there is no pro-choice stand as a Catholic, to claim to be Pro-Choice as a catholic is to be Pro-Murder, period.

If you believe this you are not Catholic, you can sit in the pew every sunday all you want, but you are not a practicing Catholic, no matter how much you dillude yourself to the contrary.

Considering oneself Catholic does not make one Catholic.. I can “consider” myself African-American, but that does not make it so. Your “catholic” friends that are pro-choice, are living completely at odds with the Catholic faith, so by very definition they are not Cathlic, no matter what they “consider” themselves.


13 posted on 11/23/2009 10:09:28 AM PST by HamiltonJay
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To: DallasSun
They consider themselves Catholic and that is all that matters. It is not up to us to say if they are or they are not.

It is up to the Church to say whether or not someone is in communion with it. The individual's opinion is irrelevant.

14 posted on 11/23/2009 10:09:50 AM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla (a wild-eyed, exclusionist, birther religio-beast -- Daily Kos)
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To: DallasSun

“It is not that simple.”

Yeah, it really is that simple. In an issue such as this, there is a clear line to be drawn. Call yourself what you want to....if you support abortion, you are not a Catholic.

Militant


15 posted on 11/23/2009 10:12:09 AM PST by militant2 (I may not agree with everything you say, but......hell, I don't agree with anything you say!)
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla

Absolutely.


16 posted on 11/23/2009 10:13:30 AM PST by DallasSun (i believe in separation of church and hate.)
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To: militant2

As I said, I am not Catholic. Many of the friends I have who are Catholic have spoken to their priests about their beliefs. Their priests did not refust to offer them communion. They know their beliefs. They certainly struggle with it, understandably. I do understand your point.


17 posted on 11/23/2009 10:17:32 AM PST by DallasSun (i believe in separation of church and hate.)
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To: HamiltonJay

As I said, I am not Catholic. You write as though you are. So you certainly know more about this than I.


18 posted on 11/23/2009 10:26:46 AM PST by DallasSun (i believe in separation of church and hate.)
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To: DallasSun

You are correct to say it is not that simple. The Church does not assert that those who reject the Church’s teaching on abortion are not Catholic. What the Church says is that they are not in full communion, or unity, with the Church.

This excerpt from Bishop Tobin’s letter to Kennedy more fully explains it:

(you write) “The fact that I disagree with the hierarchy on some issues does not make me any less of a Catholic.” Well, in fact, Congressman, in a way it does. Although I wouldn’t choose those particular words, when someone rejects the teachings of the Church, especially on a grave matter, a life-and-death issue like abortion, it certainly does diminish their ecclesial communion, their unity with the Church. This principle is based on the Sacred Scripture and Tradition of the Church and is made more explicit in recent documents.

For example, the “Code of Canon Law” says, “Lay persons are bound by an obligation and possess the right to acquire a knowledge of Christian doctrine adapted to their capacity and condition so that they can live in accord with that doctrine.” (Canon 229, #1)

The “Catechism of the Catholic Church” says this: “Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles, ‘He who hears you, hears me,’ the faithful receive with docility the teaching and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.” (#87)

Or consider this statement of the Church: “It would be a mistake to confuse the proper autonomy exercised by Catholics in political life with the claim of a principle that prescinds from the moral and social teaching of the Church.” (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 2002)

There’s lots of canonical and theological verbiage there, Congressman, but what it means is that if you don’t accept the teachings of the Church your communion with the Church is flawed, or in your own words, makes you “less of a Catholic.”

But let’s get down to a more practical question; let’s approach it this way: What does it mean, really, to be a Catholic? After all, being a Catholic has to mean something, right?

Well, in simple terms – and here I refer only to those more visible, structural elements of Church membership – being a Catholic means that you’re part of a faith community that possesses a clearly defined authority and doctrine, obligations and expectations. It means that you believe and accept the teachings of the Church, especially on essential matters of faith and morals; that you belong to a local Catholic community, a parish; that you attend Mass on Sundays and receive the sacraments regularly; that you support the Church, personally, publicly, spiritually and financially.

Congressman, I’m not sure whether or not you fulfill the basic requirements of being a Catholic, so let me ask: Do you accept the teachings of the Church on essential matters of faith and morals, including our stance on abortion? Do you belong to a local Catholic community, a parish? Do you attend Mass on Sundays and receive the sacraments regularly? Do you support the Church, personally, publicly, spiritually and financially?

In your letter you say that you “embrace your faith.” Terrific. But if you don’t fulfill the basic requirements of membership, what is it exactly that makes you a Catholic? Your baptism as an infant? Your family ties? Your cultural heritage?

Your letter also says that your faith “acknowledges the existence of an imperfect humanity.” Absolutely true. But in confronting your rejection of the Church’s teaching, we’re not dealing just with “an imperfect humanity” – as we do when we wrestle with sins such as anger, pride, greed, impurity or dishonesty. We all struggle with those things, and often fail.

Your rejection of the Church’s teaching on abortion falls into a different category – it’s a deliberate and obstinate act of the will; a conscious decision that you’ve re-affirmed on many occasions. Sorry, you can’t chalk it up to an “imperfect humanity.” Your position is unacceptable to the Church and scandalous to many of our members. It absolutely diminishes your communion with the Church.

Congressman Kennedy, I write these words not to embarrass you or to judge the state of your conscience or soul. That’s ultimately between you and God. But your description of your relationship with the Church is now a matter of public record, and it needs to be challenged. I invite you, as your bishop and brother in Christ, to enter into a sincere process of discernment, conversion and repentance. It’s not too late for you to repair your relationship with the Church, redeem your public image, and emerge as an authentic “profile in courage,” especially by defending the sanctity of human life for all people, including unborn children. And if I can ever be of assistance as you travel the road of faith, I would be honored and happy to do so.


19 posted on 11/23/2009 10:28:06 AM PST by rwa265 (Christ my Cornerstone)
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To: rwa265

An excellent and thoughtful reply. Thank you.


20 posted on 11/23/2009 10:29:42 AM PST by DallasSun (i believe in separation of church and hate.)
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To: Bullpine

This divide reminds me of a real life event.

A good friend of mine had a wife who was always having sex with men other than him.

So, I went and talked to her. I said so-and-so’s a good guy and that she shouldn’t treat him that way.

Her response?

She said they were having problems and that it’s none of my business.

Sure it’s none of my business but isn’t her screwing around just making their problems worse?

Just wondering.


21 posted on 11/23/2009 10:29:57 AM PST by BertWheeler (Dance and the World Dances With You!)
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To: Bullpine

Saddam Hussein said he was a devout muslim and devoted to the Koran but actually he only used it as a tool to get what he wanted and he was truely only devoted to Saddam.

I don’t see the Democrats as any different. They say they are Catholic but do not comform to the churches rules unless it makes them look good to those that vote for them.

Seems simple, if you don’t believe and follow church doctorine you need to go somewhere else. You don’t belong there. I can’t believe there is not a special place in hell for those that harm the innocent unborn.

“It would be well for him if a great stone was put round his neck and he was dropped into the sea, before he made trouble for any of these little ones”


22 posted on 11/23/2009 10:31:07 AM PST by Newbomb Turk (Live From Iraq and still kickin a$$ and spreading sweet freedom)
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To: Bullpine

If the good padre had any real guts, he would excommunicate the drunken fruitcake.


23 posted on 11/23/2009 10:32:24 AM PST by GoldenPup
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To: Bullpine

Why are they “asking” these pro-abort Catholics to abstain from the eucharist? Shouldn’t they be exercising church discipline and simply refusing to allow them to participate?


24 posted on 11/23/2009 10:32:31 AM PST by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: DallasSun
They consider themselves Catholic and that is all that matters. It is not up to us to say if they are or they are not.

Incorrect. Unlike some other faith traditions, the teachings of the Catholic Church are quite well and clearly defined, and not subject to private interpretation. Particularly on subjects like abortion, one does not have to be Catholic (or even Christian of any sort) to know and understand what the Church teaches on the matter.

These people may "consider themselves Catholic" ... but then the asylums are filled with folks who fancy themselves to be Napoleon ... or to be a turnip.

25 posted on 11/23/2009 10:33:36 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: DallasSun

I am Catholic, which is why I can tell you with authority, the Catholic Church has no gray area on abortion. Abortion is murder according to all Catholic teaching. Life begins at conception, period.

Being Catholic means you live and practice the Catholic faith, it does not mean you pick and choose the parts that suit you.

There is no such thing as a Pro-Choice Catholic, if you claim to hold that position you are not a practicing Catholic. Doesn’t matter if your butt is in that pew 7 days a week, or how much money you put in the plate, or how many rosaries you pray, etc etc etc.

You can consider yourself Catholic, but you are not. There is no ambiguity on this topic, life begins at conception, period. There is no concept of “Pro-Choice” to a Catholic, only “Pro-Murder”.

You cannot claim to be Catholic and Pro-Choice, to be one makes it impossible to be the other. Now, that doesn’t mean there aren’t people out there claiming to be Catholic who are so ignorant of their faith that they think its not an impossible stand, but it is. There is no confusion in the Catholic Faith on this issue.


26 posted on 11/23/2009 10:35:35 AM PST by HamiltonJay
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To: HamiltonJay

You obviously know alot more about this subject than I do. And I thank you for that reply. Your point is well taken. I was simply giving real life cases of some friends and I know they struggle with this. Thank you for taking the time to give that thoughtful reply.


27 posted on 11/23/2009 10:38:18 AM PST by DallasSun (i believe in separation of church and hate.)
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To: DallasSun

Unfortunately, the root problem is that there are many “catholic” priests (and some bishops) who are not Catholic either. It’s actually a far bigger and deeper problem than the abuse scandals which a salacious press has been happy to sensationalize over the years. Indeed, one can go so far as to say that the reason you had the abuse issue in the first place is that those who committed such acts (and those who turned a blind eye to them) where themselves long separated from the faith.


28 posted on 11/23/2009 10:42:21 AM PST by AustinBill (consequence is what makes our choices real)
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To: HamiltonJay

An error or heresy on Patrick Kennedy’s part?


29 posted on 11/23/2009 10:45:41 AM PST by tioga
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To: AustinBill

I do understand what you are saying about the priests.


30 posted on 11/23/2009 10:46:22 AM PST by DallasSun (i believe in separation of church and hate.)
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To: DallasSun
But I have many Catholic friends who are pro choice.

No you don't.
You actually have many friends who are former Catholics, though even they themselves may not realize it.

31 posted on 11/23/2009 10:46:48 AM PST by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: Willie Green

Point taken. thank you.


32 posted on 11/23/2009 10:47:56 AM PST by DallasSun (i believe in separation of church and hate.)
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To: AustinBill

there are many “catholic” priests (and some bishops) who are not Catholic either.

Makes me think of the old joke: “He’s not a Catholic priest, he’s a Jesuit.


33 posted on 11/23/2009 10:48:24 AM PST by rwa265 (Christ my Cornerstone)
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To: AustinBill

And many of these friends have husbands who have committed adultery..so if Billy Graham says there is no degree of sin..he was referring to homosexuality at the time...these men fall into the same category.


34 posted on 11/23/2009 10:53:40 AM PST by DallasSun (i believe in separation of church and hate.)
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To: DallasSun

It’s not up to them, it’s up to the Church and the Church says that a Catholic cannot support abortion period. If you don’t like the rules join another club.


35 posted on 11/23/2009 10:54:18 AM PST by Eagles6 ( Typical White Guy: Christian, Constitutionalist, Heterosexual, Redneck. (Let them eat arugula!))
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To: tioga

If Kennedy is claiming the Catholic Church supports abortion, then its flat out Heresy. I am sure He, like Pelosi have been quite informed of the proper standing of the Church on this topic, but continue to espouse things that are not correct.

I do not believe that Kennedy is ignorant of the Church’s stand on this topic. He, like Pelosi before him are simply engaging in heresy.


36 posted on 11/23/2009 10:59:55 AM PST by HamiltonJay
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To: HamiltonJay

I believe it is heresy as well.


37 posted on 11/23/2009 11:14:56 AM PST by tioga
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To: Bullpine

The US Catholic Bishops have ALLOWED the flock to be divided by sending murky mixed-messages on Catholic pols who support abortion. It allows them to continue that ridiculous fantasy that you can vote for them as a Catholic in good conscience because they are “for the workin’ man”.


38 posted on 11/23/2009 11:42:26 AM PST by Buckeye McFrog
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To: DallasSun

Articles like this and your friends of compromised faith have left you confused, re: “and that is all that matters.”
Please Google “latae sententiae” and you will see what matters. It’s part of Catholic Canon Law and is not negotiable.
Abiding by Canon Law is how you remain a Catholic. And, as you can see by the Bishop’s actions, it is up to us, the faithful, to counsel those who have fallen or have been confused by others.
I am a Catholic. I am pro-life. And, there are no Catholics on the other side of the fence. There is no division, only heretics or the faithful.
Thank you. All the best.


39 posted on 11/23/2009 11:57:09 AM PST by namvolunteer
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To: ClearCase_guy

You are so right that politicians just “use” their churches to enhance their public image. As for Patrick Kennedy, who said that just because he disagrees with the Vatican on certain issues doesn’t make him less a Catholic. Why do these people insist on remaining in the Catholic Church if they do not agree with its teachings? Why don’t they just find a church that agrees with them?


40 posted on 11/23/2009 12:38:54 PM PST by MondoQueen
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To: Buckeye McFrog

“The US Catholic Bishops have ALLOWED the flock to be divided....”

Fully agree, but it doesn’t start there....it starts at the top. There has been no clear statement of direction from the Holy Father to the Church leaders, essentially allowing individual discretion in how this issue is handled. If a Catholic supports abortion, they have excommunicated themselves. If a priest allows that person to continue to take communion, I believe that priest should no longer be able to be a priest.

Militant


41 posted on 11/23/2009 12:57:13 PM PST by militant2 (I may not agree with everything you say, but......hell, I don't agree with anything you say!)
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To: Bullpine

No, the Kennedy report relects a divide between faux Cstholics and their religion.


42 posted on 11/23/2009 2:55:26 PM PST by jimt
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To: DallasSun
They consider themselves Catholic and that is all that matters.

Ummmmm...methinks they need to have a conversation with their parish priest. They can consider themselves "Catholic" all they want, but that in and of itself does not make it so.

I was not Catholic for the first 43 years of my life...I wasn't religious at all. 12 years ago, I converted, and spiritually, I still feel like I'm taking baby steps.

In those 12 years, I have learned that there's a whole lot more than just saying "I'm Catholic". For your friends' sake, they need to reconcile themselves to God, and be serious about it.

43 posted on 11/23/2009 3:12:02 PM PST by Night Hides Not (If Dick Cheney = Darth Vader, then Joe Biden = Dark Helmet)
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To: Bullpine

Chrissy Matthews just made a fool out of Bishop Tobin on his show.....Matthews is dancing on the trapdoors of HELL by doing this......it was DISGUSTING.


44 posted on 11/23/2009 3:16:37 PM PST by Ann Archy (Abortion,,,,,,the Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: DallasSun

It’s up to GOD, and GOD says they are NOT CATHOLICS.....period.....they can believe whatever they want to, but GOD says it’s a HUGE SIN and AGAONST CATHOLIC TEACHING.


45 posted on 11/23/2009 3:19:23 PM PST by Ann Archy (Abortion,,,,,,the Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: GoldenPup

Patches has ex-communicated himself....so have the others.


46 posted on 11/23/2009 3:20:29 PM PST by Ann Archy (Abortion,,,,,,the Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: DallasSun

uh....MURDERING a BABY is WORSE than ADULTERY.....Pretty sure on that.


47 posted on 11/23/2009 3:23:03 PM PST by Ann Archy (Abortion,,,,,,the Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: Ann Archy

That was not my statement. It was a statement by Billy Graham.


48 posted on 11/23/2009 3:25:27 PM PST by DallasSun (i believe in separation of church and hate.)
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To: Night Hides Not

They have had many, many conversations with their priests all along. The priests have counselled them. They have not denied them sacraments. That is all I am saying.


49 posted on 11/23/2009 3:27:15 PM PST by DallasSun (i believe in separation of church and hate.)
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To: DallasSun

OMG!! Billy Graham should know better! Of COURSE there are MORTAL sins and VENIAL sins....or is he saying that MURDER is no worse than lying???? Come on....


50 posted on 11/23/2009 3:28:12 PM PST by Ann Archy (Abortion,,,,,,the Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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