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Lithium Ion Batteries and GEVs: False Gods for the New Millennium
Seeling Alpha ^ | 29 Nov 09 | John L. Petersen

Posted on 12/01/2009 9:01:17 PM PST by shove_it

[...]

In other words it is very likely that the $68 million in ARRA battery manufacturing grants that went to lead-carbon battery manufacturers will generate greater gasoline savings and C02 emission reductions than the $1.2 billion in ARRA grants that went to lithium-ion battery companies. This is not a question of faith. The numbers cannot lie and the magnitude of the differences is too big to ignore. If you really want to make a difference, you take the baby steps and harvest the low-hanging fruit first.

Nobody with a spreadsheet and a rudimentary understanding of mathematics can honestly argue that subsidizing batteries for GEVs will hold a votive candle to using the same funds to subsidize batteries for Prius class HEVs. Adding the cost of GEV charging stations to the abysmal economics results in a picture that nobody but the blindly faithful could love. I have no doubt that a variety of GEVs will be introduced over the next couple of years because that's what the new religion demands. For obvious reasons, I expect the phenomenon to be a flash in the pan.

[...]

(Excerpt) Read more at seekingalpha.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: batteries; energy; natgas; natgasbatteries

1 posted on 12/01/2009 9:01:19 PM PST by shove_it
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To: shove_it

I gev up. What’s a “gev”?? Globally Enormous Vortex? Gargantuan Extraterrestrial Viper?


2 posted on 12/01/2009 9:07:15 PM PST by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: ProtectOurFreedom
I gev up. What’s a “gev”?? Globally Enormous Vortex? Gargantuan Extraterrestrial Viper?

Grid enabled vehicle.

3 posted on 12/01/2009 9:15:52 PM PST by Ol' Dan Tucker (People should not be afraid of the government. Governement should be afraid of the people)
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To: Ol' Dan Tucker

OK, I give up. So what’s a GEV?


4 posted on 12/01/2009 9:16:51 PM PST by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: ProtectOurFreedom

Don’t bother reading the article, just have another drink.


5 posted on 12/01/2009 9:30:13 PM PST by shove_it (and have a nice day)
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To: ProtectOurFreedom

Gummint Expensive Vehicle?


6 posted on 12/01/2009 9:48:07 PM PST by Senormechanico
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To: shove_it

So, he’s saying that GEV, Grid Enabled Vehicles or plug in cars are the latest “flash in the pan” but that the Prias batteries are the best buy but if you could get a Prias to run on CNG that would be even better.
With some clever little analogies about environmentalism as a religion. Now THAT, we knew.


7 posted on 12/01/2009 10:17:34 PM PST by dixjea
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To: dixjea
but if you could get a Prias to run on CNG that would be even better.

Why do that when there are diesels that perform much better.

8 posted on 12/01/2009 10:27:25 PM PST by Pontiac
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To: Pontiac

That is true. Why don’t we sell them in the US? Only in Europe


9 posted on 12/01/2009 10:32:35 PM PST by dixjea
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To: Pontiac

I was just quoting the article.


10 posted on 12/01/2009 10:35:05 PM PST by dixjea
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To: dixjea

11 posted on 12/01/2009 10:52:56 PM PST by shove_it (and have a nice day)
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To: shove_it

Israel is going headlong into this technology (mostly for obvious reasons that have nothing to do with global warming)

They expect to be the first all-electric vehicle nation in the next 10 years:

http://www.betterplace.com/global-progress/israel/

“Better Place” is an Israeli startup that was recently purchased by SAP.


12 posted on 12/01/2009 11:10:13 PM PST by cookcounty ("Let us not hear of the honor of men - Let us bind them with the chains of the Constitution")
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To: shove_it

Now, that’s a pretty thang!


13 posted on 12/01/2009 11:14:56 PM PST by dixjea
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To: dixjea

More on the Toyota Camry CNG Hybrid Concept car here:

http://jalopnik.com/5092628/toyota-cng-camry-hybrid-concept


14 posted on 12/01/2009 11:22:06 PM PST by shove_it (and have a nice day)
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To: dixjea

“That is true. Why don’t we sell them in the US? Only in Europe”

Diesels are sold HERE by VW (Jetta, Golf, Taureg), Audi (Q7, A3), BMW (335d, X5d), Mercedes (M320d, E320d).

Likely more models coming. (There are a lot more diesel engines in Europe from those companies)

VW has a new model in testing called TwinDrive which is a diesel-electric hybrid.

The current Jetta tdi (2.0 liter) gets 30 mpg city, 40 mpg highway. With hybrid I guess closer to 45 mpg city, 60 mpg highway. It has a 1.5 liter diesel engine.

The question might better be: Why aren’t the Detroit 3, Japan and Korea on the ball?


15 posted on 12/01/2009 11:34:36 PM PST by truth_seeker
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To: shove_it
I am not a trained expert, but I have been interested in alternative power sources and batteries for approximately 40 years. I am a tinkerer and have put together some odd creations. I have experimented some with Lithium Ion batteries.

Lithium Ion cells have a power to weight advantage over other types of rechargeable batteries, but they are very temperamental. This gives the ones you find in electronic devices such as phones, cameras, mp3 players and laptop computers have some advantages. In these types of application they can perform admirably.

When you try to use Lithium Ion cells in applications where you are storing and discharging greater amounts of power with higher voltages and amperage like in a car or even a scooter... the challenges are far greater and the temperamental nature of the individual cells becomes much more problematic and sometimes even dangerous. After one gets their hands a little dirty working with these cells it is not hard to imagine how it could take vast amounts of money find practical ways to use them in this type of application.

For example: If you are using just two cells in series and they are not well matched during charging and discharging and one of the cells is either overcharged or especially if it is allowed to be discharged too far... you find yourself with a permanently damaged battery. It is very easy to do. Often one cell used in series will discharge almost completely while the other cell still has lots of power left.

Even using them in small flashlights incorrectly can end up destroying many cells if you are not paying very close attention and checking on them frequently. I know they are spending millions trying to perfect lithium ion batteries for transportation uses, but they may never be truly practical or economical. There are good reasons why unlike Ni-cads, and NIMH cells, Li-Ion cells can not be found in your neighborhood convenience store.

Sorry to ramble on... but I don't think most people appreciate the challenges involved in using Li-Ion cells in all electric vehicles. I am skeptical that the governments goals will be met.

16 posted on 12/02/2009 1:20:15 AM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: shove_it

Would that science could work with technology to generate innovation without greed and the lust for power getting in the middle of it!


17 posted on 12/02/2009 4:52:46 AM PST by RoadTest (Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3)
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To: fireman15
There are good reasons why unlike Ni-cads, and NIMH cells, Li-Ion cells can not be found in your neighborhood convenience store.

I haven't checked convenience stores lately but you can buy them at Walmart, Radio Shack, Home Depot, Rite-Aid, Walgreens ....

18 posted on 12/02/2009 5:04:13 AM PST by ColdWater ("The theory of evolution really has no bearing on what I'm trying to accomplish with FR anyway. ")
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To: truth_seeker

Hybrids have little to no advantage in highway mpg. Why would you expect a 50% increase?


19 posted on 12/02/2009 7:55:50 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney

“Hybrids have little to no advantage in highway mpg. Why would you expect a 50% increase?”

I’ll defer to your superior knowledge.

But isn’t smaller displacement engine worth some gain?


20 posted on 12/02/2009 9:33:26 AM PST by truth_seeker
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To: ProtectOurFreedom
OK, I give up. So what’s a GEV?

"Give a man some bread and you'll feed him for a day. Teach a man how to bake and you'll feed him for a lifetime."

There's a really neat concept on the web, called a 'search engine'.

It allows one to feed his intellectual curiosity on a wide variety of subjects.

I like to use one called, 'Google.com'.

Ever heard of it?

21 posted on 12/02/2009 12:27:54 PM PST by Ol' Dan Tucker (People should not be afraid of the government. Governement should be afraid of the people)
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To: ColdWater

The Lithium cells you can buy at Walmart, etc. are not rechargeable. Look at the packages.


22 posted on 12/02/2009 2:46:38 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: fireman15
The Lithium cells you can buy at Walmart, etc. are not rechargeable. Look at the packages.

Hmmm. You seem to have dropped the "-ion" from "Li-Ion".

23 posted on 12/02/2009 5:21:16 PM PST by ColdWater ("The theory of evolution really has no bearing on what I'm trying to accomplish with FR anyway. ")
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To: truth_seeker
Look at the performance of hybrids, the highway miles compared to city miles have very little gain. Sometimes the highway mileage even goes down. Also compare to same models non-hybrid.

Honda Civic - city 40 - hwy 45 Hybrid
Honda Insight - city 40 - hwy 43 Hybrid

Lexus GS 450h - city 22 - hwy 25 Hybrid
Lexus HS 250h - city 35 - hwy 34 Hybrid

Chevrolet Malibu - city 22 - hwy 30 (2.4l, non-Hybrid)
Chevrolet Malibu - city 26 - hwy 34 (2.4l, Hybrid)

Ford Fusion - city 23 - hwy 34 (2.5l, non-Hybrid)
Ford Fusion - city 41 - hwy 36 (2.5l, Hybrid)

Nissan Altima - city 23 - hwy 32 (2.5l, non-Hybrid)
Nissan Altima - city 35 - hwy 33 (2.5l, Hybrid)

Toyota Camry - city 22 - hwy 32 (2.5l, non-Hybrid)
Toyota Camry - city 33 - hwy 34 (2.4l, Hybrid)

Chevrolet Silverado P/U - city 13 - hwy 19 (6.2l, non-Hybrid)
Chevrolet Silverado P/U - city 21 - hwy 22 (6.0l, Hybrid)

Ford Escape - city 21 - hwy 28 (2.5l, non-Hybrid)
Ford Escape - city 34 - hwy 31 (2.5l, Hybrid)

Mazda Tribute - city 21 - hwy 28 (2.5l, non-Hybrid)
Mazda Tribute - city 34 - hwy 31 (2.5l, Hybrid)

BMW X6 - city 13 - hwy 18 (4.4l, non-Hybrid)
BMW X6 - city 17 - hwy 19 (4.4l, Hybrid)

All values above from:
2010 Fuel Economy Guide
EPA / Dept of Energy
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/FEG2010.pdf

24 posted on 12/02/2009 6:11:31 PM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: ColdWater

“Hmmm. You seem to have dropped the “-ion” from “Li-Ion”.”

I was trying to be diplomatic because your assertion that you can buy rechargeable Li-Ion cells at major retailers is mistaken. There are a large variety of Lithium based batteries available at major retailers which I assumed was what you were referring to. Major retailers do not sell individual rechargeable Li-Ion cells. These are considered too dangerous for major retailers to sell to the public because if they are used improperly they can and do catch on fire and sometimes explode. I am not aware that you can even special order them through Radio Shack.

The only rechargeable Li-ion batteries sold at major retailers are specialty battery packs made up for tools, cell phones, computers, cameras and similar electronic devices. These batteries have circuitry built into them or will only fit in devices or rechargers with circuitry built into them which protect them from the temperamental and negative characteristics of rechargeable Li-Ion cells.

If you could give a more specific example of the point you are trying to make… I am sure we could agree. If I have stated something in a way that can be misinterpreted… I am sorry.


25 posted on 12/02/2009 9:03:18 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: ColdWater
I haven't checked convenience stores lately but you can buy them at Walmart, Radio Shack, Home Depot, Rite-Aid, Walgreens ....
Are you aware of the different charging requirements for Li-ion batteries vs Nicad, NiMH etc?
26 posted on 12/02/2009 9:09:37 PM PST by _Jim (Conspiracy theories are the tools of the weak-minded.)
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To: fireman15

You can order them over the internet but the reason they are not sold over the counter as normal battery cells is that they are 3.7 volts and would fry your gadget and the charger would not put out enough voltage to charge them.


27 posted on 12/02/2009 9:16:38 PM PST by ColdWater ("The theory of evolution really has no bearing on what I'm trying to accomplish with FR anyway. ")
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To: _Jim
Are you aware of the different charging requirements for Li-ion batteries vs Nicad, NiMH etc?

Yes. Are you aware that they are 3.7 volts instead of the normal 1.5 volts typical of battery cells?

28 posted on 12/02/2009 9:17:57 PM PST by ColdWater ("The theory of evolution really has no bearing on what I'm trying to accomplish with FR anyway. ")
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To: ColdWater
Yes. Are you aware that they are 3.7 volts instead of the normal 1.5 volts typical of battery cells?
No.

I am not.

A)You failed to state under WHICH conditions (during discharge, beginning of discharge, beginning of charge, end of charge, ...)?

B) Nicad and NiMH are not in the 1.5 V category (we were traling secondary celles, were we not, and not primary cells?)

You wanna see the data sheet from Panasonic on Li-ion?

Sheesh.

29 posted on 12/02/2009 9:23:12 PM PST by _Jim (Conspiracy theories are the tools of the weak-minded.)
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To: _Jim
"Are you aware that they are 3.7 volts instead of the normal 1.5 volts typical of battery cells? "

No. I am not.

Then you are totally ignorant on Li-ion battery technology and should keep your mouth shut.

30 posted on 12/02/2009 9:28:54 PM PST by ColdWater ("The theory of evolution really has no bearing on what I'm trying to accomplish with FR anyway. ")
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To: ColdWater
Overview:

www.actec.dk/Panasonic/pdf/li-ionoverview.pdf

Charging considerations (observing these precautions could save your life, your property, etc.):

industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf/ACA4000/ACA4000PE4.pdf

31 posted on 12/02/2009 9:31:26 PM PST by _Jim (Conspiracy theories are the tools of the weak-minded.)
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To: ColdWater
Then you are totally ignorant on Li-ion battery technology and should keep your mouth shut.
See, its like this.

I was baiting you.

And, well, you fell for it. Pretty hard I would say. Completely as a matter of fact.

I am in the process of converting a couple of old Ni-cad packs for a Yaesu FT-727R to Li-ion; it's calling for a whole new charging supervision system don't you know ... on account of the V-I charaacteritics of Li-Ion vs NiCads.

Don't you know.

Sheesh.

32 posted on 12/02/2009 9:35:27 PM PST by _Jim (Conspiracy theories are the tools of the weak-minded.)
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To: fireman15

I don’t think ‘ColdWater’ is rational. It dosn’t seem that way anyway ...


33 posted on 12/02/2009 9:36:35 PM PST by _Jim (Conspiracy theories are the tools of the weak-minded.)
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To: ColdWater

I have dozens of rechargeable CR123a and 18650 Li-Ion cells. I have fried a lot of them over the years. They come in both 3v and 3.7v configurations and you can also get both internally protected and unprotected cells. I have specialty chargers made for both the 3v and 3.7v batteries. The chargers have circuitry that control several parameters not just the voltage. They generally won’t fit in gadgets that weren’t designed for them, but depending on the device you can still run into problems if you don’t keep close track of them.

My intention is not to say that Li-Ion cells are bad; obviously they are the best solution for an increasing number of applications. The hobbiests who know the most about them are generally making their own Li-Ion battery packs for R/C models and also people replacing bad cells in laptop and other expensive battery packs. If one is a battery enthusiast they can get a lot of performance out of these cells.

Originally my only point was that after fooling around with these a bit... one gets an appreciation for the engineering it will take to get them to meet the practical demands of an electric vehicle. It is much more challenging than using standard deep cycle lead acid batteries.


34 posted on 12/02/2009 9:39:26 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: _Jim
I am in the process of converting a couple of old Ni-cad packs for a Yaesu FT-727R to Li-ion; it's calling for a whole new charging supervision system don't you know ... on account of the V-I charaacteritics of Li-Ion vs NiCads.

Now that you know they are 3.7 volts instead of 1.2 volts, you have a better chance of success!

35 posted on 12/02/2009 9:44:38 PM PST by ColdWater ("The theory of evolution really has no bearing on what I'm trying to accomplish with FR anyway. ")
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To: fireman15
It is much more challenging than using standard deep cycle lead acid batteries.

Agreed. However with modern technolgy that challenge is being met.

36 posted on 12/02/2009 9:46:57 PM PST by ColdWater ("The theory of evolution really has no bearing on what I'm trying to accomplish with FR anyway. ")
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To: fireman15
If you've got any application you're considering, I've found these work pretty well:

BAT1087
3.7V/670mAh
Rechargeable Lithium-Ion
Your Price $1.49

10-Or More $0.99 (Per Item) BG Micro - Li-ion batts

I've placed a couple sets if these in packs for 5W VHF/UHF hand-held transceivers ... with revised/modified charging circuits from they were originally equipped.

37 posted on 12/02/2009 9:48:32 PM PST by _Jim (Conspiracy theories are the tools of the weak-minded.)
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To: _Jim

“If you’ve got any application you’re considering, I’ve found these work pretty well:”

Thank you for the tip! I forgot, the guys that really know the most about rechargeable batteries are Radio guys. I have had good luck with BGMicro in the past. That is a very interesting cell; it sounds like it has good protection built in as well.

For the standard sized rechargeable Li-Ion cells... I have purchased most through dealextreme.com and certain ebay sellers. The Li-Ion batteries I have purchased have generally been of Chinese origin, so the quality control is not that great which accounts for some of my dead cells but in other cases I have inadvertantly abused the cells myself.

Lately I have been playing with these small high power LED flashlights for work, play, and bicycling. The 18650 cells are great for these, but CR123 cells have some advantages as well.


38 posted on 12/02/2009 10:30:21 PM PST by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: thackney

The 2.0 liter turbodiesel Jetta get 30 mpg city and 40 mpg highway.

Of course you are correct about hybrid not improving highway mpg by much if any.

I do expect better mpg from a 1.5 liter turbodiesel than the 2.0 liter equivalent, however.

I claim no expertise, but read a lot of car highlights.

There are some models coming out with different technology-where the electric motor always powers the car, and the gas engine recharges the battery, after it goes off full electric.

Those include Chevy Volt, plus Fisker Karma and others. They are epected to get still higher mpg.

Anyway, these are interesting times, as the age of truly higher mpg emerges.

I know a few Prius owners who like their cars a lot. One claimed 60 mpg last weekend, but didn’t state the type of driving.


39 posted on 12/02/2009 11:05:54 PM PST by truth_seeker
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To: truth_seeker
There are some models coming out with different technology-where the electric motor always powers the car, and the gas engine recharges the battery, after it goes off full electric.

Those include Chevy Volt, plus Fisker Karma and others. They are epected to get still higher mpg.

It will be interesting to me to see if that claim holds true beyond the "plug-in" advantage. I will be surprised if they achieve more efficiency from power solely originating from the engine.

The challenge I see for the series-hybrid application is that now the electrical motor will need to be larger for the same performance during acceleration. That is easily done, but it also means that during steady speed driving, the electric motor is more over-sized and running farther from its peak efficiency point.

The parallel-hybrid has the advantage of using power from both the gasoline engine and the electric motor to achieve the most power requiring event of acceleration. This allows the electric motor to be sized smaller and operate more closely to its peak efficiency in more of the operation. Of course the parallel-hybrid has other challenges including the complex transmission of power from both sources.

My guess is the series-hybrid will get the biggest claim in using power that is delivered via an extension cord at night and discarded in the comparisons of "mpg". That is a false comparison.

To me, only when we look at dollars per mile, include original purchase and maintenance, do we get a meaningful comparison. And that number will vary for individuals depending on how many miles per year and how long they own it. That is the comparison I use for my own purchases. It is only an estimate, but to me it has more meaning.

40 posted on 12/03/2009 5:07:26 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: shove_it
We are working on it.

Sandia National Labs.

41 posted on 12/03/2009 5:26:10 AM PST by Pistolshot (Brevity: Saying a lot, while saying very little.)
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