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Natural selection and change, yes; Evolution, no
CMI ^ | December 2, 2009 | Russell Grigg

Posted on 12/03/2009 6:22:56 PM PST by GodGunsGuts

Natural selection and change, yes; Evolution, no

--snip--

Summary

1.This episode talks much about change and natural selection, but fails to give any evidence that these produce evolution, other than for the various professors who assert that it does.

2.Darwin’s theory promoted the idea that man is “a beast with animal lusts and no morality”, and this has been gleefully accepted by much of modern society.

3.We might well ask: Why would any sane professor adopt and propagate a theory for which there is such paltry scientific evidence, which is an expression of hatred of God, and which demotes man to the level of a beast? For the answer, we quote the words of another 19th century atheist philosopher, Friedrich Nietzsche, who pronounced God to be “dead”, and gave as his reason, “We deny God; in denying God, we deny accountability.” ...

(Excerpt) Read more at creation.com ...


TOPICS: Australia/New Zealand; Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; US: Georgia; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: belongsinreligion; bovinescat; catholic; christian; christianright; conjecture; creation; crevolist; evangelical; evolution; godsgravesglyphs; intelligentdesign; judaism; moralabsolutes; notasciencetopic; notscience; propellerbeanie; protestant; religiousright; science; spammer
For the record, this post is being posted in News/Activism by the express permission of Jim Robinson, founder and owner of Free Republic:

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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2203455/posts?page=78#78

1 posted on 12/03/2009 6:22:58 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: metmom; DaveLoneRanger; editor-surveyor; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; MrB; GourmetDan; Fichori; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 12/03/2009 6:24:07 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts
Weird how the article states “a beast with animal lusts and no morality” in quotes......but a Google search returns exactly one hit for that "quote" of the theory.

That hit's the article, itself.

3 posted on 12/03/2009 6:33:13 PM PST by Psycho_Bunny (ALSO SPRACH ZEROTHUSTRA)
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To: GodGunsGuts

You do know it’s ludicrous to call this nonsense “defending your religious freedom”......right?


4 posted on 12/03/2009 6:33:55 PM PST by ElectricStrawberry (Didja know that Man walked with 100+ species of large meat eating dinos within the last 4,351 years?)
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To: GodGunsGuts

>>2.Darwin’s theory promoted the idea that man is “a beast with animal lusts and no morality”, and this has been gleefully accepted by much of modern society.

But Darwin himself made no such assertion.

>>For the answer, we quote the words of another 19th century atheist philosopher, Friedrich Nietzsche, who >>pronounced God to be “dead”, and gave as his reason, “We deny God; in denying God, we deny accountability.” ...

Nietzsche didn’t “pronounce” God dead. Instead, he made the (correct) case that the educated classes of his day had rejected religious explanations and sought refuge in scientism...thus, the madman said, “God is dead, and we have killed Him.”


5 posted on 12/03/2009 6:39:36 PM PST by oblomov
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To: GodGunsGuts

The natives are restless tonight.


6 posted on 12/03/2009 6:47:27 PM PST by rae4palin
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To: GodGunsGuts
antifree

Evolution is not always one way.

7 posted on 12/03/2009 6:51:22 PM PST by Nateman (If liberals aren't screaming you're doing it wrong.)
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To: GodGunsGuts
You cannot take the bible as a literal document. It was written by men, translated by men, and is a reflection of their beliefs and fears in that ancient time.

That just isn't going to work on an educated audience. You may as well try and convince us that the world is flat.

Evolution is a fact, and is still happening all around you today.

8 posted on 12/03/2009 6:52:27 PM PST by Republican Extremist
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To: oblomov

Darwin and the Descent of Morality

http://www.discovery.org/a/1122


9 posted on 12/03/2009 6:59:19 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: rae4palin

Yes, quite.


10 posted on 12/03/2009 7:01:16 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: Republican Extremist

On what basis do you conclude that macroevolution is an historical fact?


11 posted on 12/03/2009 7:05:46 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts
Natural selection is like a tax cut, I hear it exists but real examples are hard to come by.

One evolutionist says stripes on a zebra are an example of natural selection for living in the tall grasses but how then does one explain another zebra, the quagga, which is only striped on the front part of its body. Or other prey animals that live in the same location that have no stripes.
Did natural selection quit half way through the process on the quagga?
How to explain the difference in lions and cheetahs that prey upon the same animals in the same areas yet are very different in their habits and appearance.
Both survive so which traits are being selected for survival?

Natural selection sounds like a far too random a process to produce anything more than minor differences.

12 posted on 12/03/2009 7:17:08 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Republican Extremist

“You cannot take the bible as a literal document. It was written by men, translated by men, and is a reflection of their beliefs and fears in that ancient time.

That just isn’t going to work on an educated audience. You may as well try and convince us that the world is flat.

Evolution is a fact, and is still happening all around you today. “

Funny learned men were telling us the earth was flat long after the Bible was written. Isaiah 40:22 told us the earth was a sphere.

Just what have you seen evolve ? Evolution goes against the second law of thermodynamics . We are not gaining DNA we are losing it.

I’ll take the Bibles word a truth over that of some scientist with alter motive of gaining some funding.
So far none of those learned men who have set out to prove the Bible was false have succeeded in doing so.

My dad was a PHD who had trouble tying his shoelaces.
Learned men can be lacking in knowledge in many things.


13 posted on 12/03/2009 7:17:14 PM PST by Lera
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To: GodGunsGuts
the idea that man is “a beast with animal lusts and no morality”,

One can't help but notice, in many cases this is actually a correct statement.

14 posted on 12/03/2009 7:19:22 PM PST by UCANSEE2
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Comment #15 Removed by Moderator

To: GodGunsGuts
I'm an educated man.

You should not be asking for proof when your entire belief system is based entirely on faith, which is the lack of proof coupled with the refusal to consider any opposing viewpoint. I could show you any amount of proof, but with a closed mind, nothing could convince you.

Darwin was a Naturalist and a Christian. He had both faith in God and open mind, as they are not mutually exclusive.

16 posted on 12/03/2009 7:24:25 PM PST by Republican Extremist
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To: Republican Extremist

“I’m an educated man.”

Any particular field or just generally so?


17 posted on 12/03/2009 7:30:05 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: GodGunsGuts

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18 posted on 12/03/2009 7:31:45 PM PST by ColdWater ("The theory of evolution really has no bearing on what I'm trying to accomplish with FR anyway. ")
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To: Republican Extremist

Ok, so you can’t explain why you think macroevolution is an historical fact. Now that we know your belief in macroevolution is based on blind faith and not empirical science, why do you assume that creation scientists are just as blind as the evolutionists?


19 posted on 12/03/2009 7:38:54 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts
why do you assume that creation scientists are just as blind as more blind than the evolutionists?

fixed ...

20 posted on 12/03/2009 7:40:41 PM PST by ColdWater ("The theory of evolution really has no bearing on what I'm trying to accomplish with FR anyway. ")
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To: GodGunsGuts
"Darwin’s theory promoted the idea that man is “a beast with animal lusts and no morality”, and this has been gleefully accepted by much of modern society.

This is pure conjecture. There is absolutely nothing on the record that even suggests this. In short this is "Bovine Scat">

21 posted on 12/03/2009 7:43:58 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Republican Extremist; GodGunsGuts
You cannot take the bible as a literal document. It was written by men, translated by men, and is a reflection of their beliefs and fears in that ancient time.

Can God can speak creation into being, part the seas, send His inspired word to us through the ages and enter the world to die and rise from the grave? If not, is He or isn't He really God?

Maybe the God you worship is really just another god; perhaps you should learn about the God who is all powerful and omnipotent.

22 posted on 12/03/2009 7:44:29 PM PST by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: Lera; GodGunsGuts; Republican Extremist; Grizzled Bear
"You cannot take the bible as a literal document.."

You are in good intellectual company:

"Difference Between Form and Content One answer was already worked out some time ago, as the scientific view of the world was gradually crystallizing; many of you probably came across it in your religious instruction. It says that the Bible is not a natural science textbook, nor does it intend to be such. It is a religious book, and consequently one cannot obtain information about the natural sciences from it. One cannot get from it a scientific explanation of how the world arose; one can only glean religious experience from it. Anything else is an image and a way of describing things whose aim is to make profound realities graspable to human beings. One must distinguish between the form of portrayal and the content that is portrayed. The form would have been chosen from what was understandable at the time -- from the images which surrounded the people who lived then, which they used in speaking and in thinking, and thanks to which they were able to understand the greater realities. And only the reality that shines through these images would be what was intended and what was truly enduring. Thus Scripture would not wish to inform us about how the different species of plant life gradually appeared or how the sun and the moon and the stars were established. Its purpose ultimately would be to say one thing: God created the world."

"In the Beginning...." A Catholic Understanding of the Story of Creation and the Fall - Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI)

23 posted on 12/03/2009 7:52:05 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Republican Extremist
You cannot take the bible as a literal document. It was written by men, translated by men, and is a reflection of their beliefs and fears in that ancient time.

If you don't believe the authors were Divinely Inspired, I can see how you'd think that way. That's where Faith comes in.

That just isn't going to work on an educated audience. You may as well try and convince us that the world is flat.

I guess that depends on how you define 'educated'.

Evolution is a fact, and is still happening all around you today.

I'm more thinking, adaptation over evolution. but, ok. have it your way. how is the uniqueness of the precambian period explained, using evolution and only evolution? if precambian was an anamoly, what would be the odds of it occuring again? on any planet?

24 posted on 12/03/2009 8:33:58 PM PST by blueplum
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To: GodGunsGuts

Although that is a one-sided account of Darwin’s moral theory, even according to this text his views were a far cry from regarding humanity as having “animal lusts with no morality”. If the account you linked is accurate, then it is quite different from Nietzsche’s theory of how moral conventions arose, so how can one juxtapose the two, except out of ignorance?

Although we today regard advocacy of eugenics as shocking, it was prevailing wisdom among the educated persons of his day. It is historicism to condemn him for rationalizing a conventional opinion.

On a similiar note, there are numerous Christian apologia for slavery from the 18th and 19th centuries. The pagan festival of Saturnalia persisted into the 16th century under sanction of the Church, during which Jews would be stripped naked and chased through the streets of Rome. Is it fair to say that what is perceived as Christian morality has ...changed?

I think we have changed. I believe that the West has become more morally aware over time (and I don’t mean “better”)- that we have become more aware of the “other”, broadening our scope of empathy beyond tribe, race, and country. In other words, we are inching closer to God in an individual, non-utopian, non-hubristic sense. Darwin was indeed secular, but I think his observations were his attempt to describe and understand the same phenomenon. I do not regard his views as offensive or ridiculous, or even particularly wrong. Incomplete, perhaps, but not necessarily wrong.

Teilhard de Chardin had similar views (cf. the noosphere), and I think Teilhard’s Jesuitical mysticism endowed the idea with a certain beauty. Flannery O’Connor found poetry in Teilhardism, and understood the relevance to the morality of everyday life, and wrote “Everything that Rises Must Converge” as a tribute to his philosophy.


25 posted on 12/03/2009 9:29:15 PM PST by oblomov
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To: blueplum; Grizzled Bear; GodGunsGuts; count-your-change; Lera
I see liberals constantly claiming that the bible isn't written by God through man- and only liberals beleive that you can't beleive the bible because supposedly, the 'bible was written by fallible man alone. Well time to expose that LIE for what it is- Anti-Christian, Anti-God belief (After all, you can't beleive in an infallible God if you doubt the very words of that same infallible God, and call into question His authority and word like liberals pretendign to be Christians often do)

Some people teach that the Bible writers never claimed to be inspired or directly guided by God. They say that neither the writers nor God viewed Scripture as a revelation of the mind of God which we should follow as a pattern for our lives. As such, they deny the infallible, inerrant, verbal inspiration of Scripture.

Other people say the Bible is inspired in that the writers did put down some of God's ideas, but maybe men still put some of their own uninspired ideas in it. For example, maybe God just taught the men right ideas, but left them to express those ideas as they see best.

Others say the Bible writers speak the truth in matters of religious faith and morals, but when they speak about history or science they are writing as humans and may be wrong. Therefore, we cannot accept the Bible accounts of miracles and the lives of Bible characters as necessarily valid.

The results of these views of inspiration are that maybe there is some error in the words written by "inspired" men: maybe we can, even should, reject parts of it as not being true. Such views are called "modernism" or "liberalism." Yet those who hold these views may still claim to be Christians who believe in God, Christ, and the Bible.

This study deals with the basic question: In what sense, or to what extent, is the Bible inspired? 1) Did the Bible writers really claim inspiration? Did they say that what they wrote was God's will? 2) Did God actually guide the words the men chose in expressing the teachings (verbal inspiration)? 3) Could it be that some words in the writings of these men were true and accurate, but some may have been mistaken in some way? Or is the Bible an infallible and inerrant revelation?

Notice the subject as outlined for us in Revelation 19:9 - "These are true words of God." [LINK]

A. Old Testament Writers Claimed Their Message Was from God
Isaiah 1:2 - The Lord has spoken.
Jeremiah 10:1,2 - Hear the word which the Lord speaks. Thus says the Lord...
Ezekiel 1:3 - The word of the Lord came expressly.
Hosea 1:1,2 - The word of the Lord that came ... the Lord began to speak by Hosea, the Lord said...
Jonah 1:1 - The word of the Lord came to Jonah.
Micah 1:1 - The word of the Lord that came to Micah.
Zech. 1:1 - The word of the Lord came to Zechariah.

[See also Joel 1:2; Amos 1:3,6, etc; Obad. 1:1; Zeph. 1:1; Hab. 2:2; Deuteronomy 30:9,10; Numbers 12:6-8; 23:5,12,16,19; plus see references in other sections.]

B. New Testament Writers Claimed Their Message Was from God
1 Corinthians 14:37 - The things I write are commands of Lord.

Ephesians 3:3-5 - The things Paul wrote were made known to him by revelation. Formerly these things were not known but have now been revealed by the Spirit to apostles & prophets.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 - We say by the word of the Lord.

1 Timothy 4:1 - The Spirit expressly says.

[2 Thessalonians 3:12; John 12:48-50; Acts 16:32; Romans 1:16; 1 Thessalonians 1:5]

C. Inspired Men Claimed that What Other Writers Wrote Was from God.
Matthew 1:22 - A quotation was spoken by the Lord through the prophet.

Matthew 2:15 - Another passage was spoken by the Lord through the prophet.

Acts 1:16 - The Spirit spoke by the mouth of David.

Acts 28:25 - The Holy Spirit spoke by Isaiah ... prophet.

Hebrews 1:1,2 - God spoke in times past to the fathers by prophets. But now He has spoken to us by His Son.

Matthew 15:4 - Jesus Himself confirmed that Scriptures were from God. He quoted the Law revealed through Moses and said it was what God commanded.

Matthew 22:29-32 - He said the Scriptures were spoken by God.

Luke 10:16 - He also confirmed the inspiration of the New Testament for He told the apostles who wrote it: He who hears you, hears Me; he who rejects you rejects Me and rejects Him who sent Me

John 16:13 - He promised the men who penned the New Testament that the Spirit would guide them into all truth

To deny or question that the Bible writers spoke from God is to deny and reject the truthfulness of their own statements about themselves, their statements about one another, and Jesus' statements about Scriptures.

[Matthew 19:4-6; John 10:35; 2 Chronicles 34:14-19; Isaiah 2:1-3; Matthew 22:43; Romans 1:1,2; Hebrews 3:7; 1 Peter 1:10-12; 2 Peter 1:20f; 3:15f; Acts 4:24f]

26 posted on 12/03/2009 11:26:36 PM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: GodGunsGuts

You have ignored this question at least three times now.....Please explain why we find no trilobites above the Permian strata, and why we find no dinosaurs above the cretaceous strata, or no mammals in the Cambrian strata?


27 posted on 12/04/2009 7:32:40 AM PST by Ira_Louvin (Go tell them people lost in sin, Theres a higher power ,They need not fear the works of men.)
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To: count-your-change

Well, the quagga obviously lives with its rear end in a non-grassy area while the front is in the tall grass.

Seriously, though, I have read that the stripes on the zebra are to confuse the predators because they can’t pick out an individual animal in a herd.


28 posted on 12/04/2009 7:37:56 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a humanist and a Satanist is that the latter knows who he's working for.)
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To: Lera
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

...and elementary geometry tells me that a circle is most certainly not a sphere.

Care to review basic geometry or is "Man lived in the world of 100+ species of meat eating dinosaurs" your final answer?

Hint: a circle is 2-dimensional and as "flat" as you can get.

29 posted on 12/04/2009 8:20:13 AM PST by ElectricStrawberry (Didja know that Man walked with 100+ species of large meat eating dinos within the last 4,351 years?)
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To: Natural Law

What the heck would the Pope know about the Bible??


30 posted on 12/04/2009 8:30:51 AM PST by ElectricStrawberry (Didja know that Man walked with 100+ species of large meat eating dinos within the last 4,351 years?)
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To: MrB

Yes, I have heard the confuse with stripes idea too. Maybe so. Still they get eaten, stripes and all.


31 posted on 12/04/2009 8:46:36 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: ElectricStrawberry

“Hint: a circle is 2-dimensional and as “flat” as you can get.”

The original word in Hebrew just like in Job 22:14
means circuit or sphere


32 posted on 12/04/2009 3:58:30 PM PST by Lera
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To: Lera

So, it gets translated to mean whatever you need it to ean, whenever you need it?

So, Man tainted the Bible to mean what it does not mean.....got it.

I, on the other hand, will believe that they thought the world was flat because that’s what was thought at the time.....as their pathetic understanding of the scope of “the world” was severely lacking.


33 posted on 12/04/2009 4:05:01 PM PST by ElectricStrawberry (Didja know that Man walked with 100+ species of large meat eating dinos within the last 4,351 years?)
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To: ElectricStrawberry

Job 38:16
Have you entered into the springs of the sea? or have you walked in the search of the depth?

Job lived in the middle east around 4000 years ago , modern man found springs in the sea in the early 1900’s.

Job 26:7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

I guess he knew the earth wasn’t sitting on someones shoulders too since he says it hangs on nothing.

They knew way more than you think they did.

God gave you free will to believe whatever you want.


34 posted on 12/04/2009 4:27:10 PM PST by Lera
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To: Lera

What’s that have to do with the People’s lack of understanding of the scope of the world at the time?

Hint: nothing.

You provided the verse that said the Earth was a sphere. I read the verse and it very clearly, in very plain English, said the Earth was a circle.

If THAT was translated incorrectly, shat else was?

I say it was translated with the knowledge at the time...that they thought the Earth was flat.

That they knew of water springs is irrelevant. They might have seen them in fresh water, but I doubt they went to the bottom of a sea and saw them.

Omg, the Earth hangs on nothing? That means they knew the Earth was not flat? Wait...flat things “hang”...

This is called “knowing stuff”?


35 posted on 12/05/2009 11:24:53 AM PST by ElectricStrawberry (Didja know that Man walked with 100+ species of large meat eating dinos within the last 4,351 years?)
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To: ElectricStrawberry

Maybe you should try reading the entire book . Instead of mocking it read it and prove it wrong.
If you read it you would be surprised at what they did know .
Things you wouldn’t even begin to think about like the concept of phi.


36 posted on 12/05/2009 7:20:32 PM PST by Lera
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To: Lera
Evolution goes against the second law of thermodynamics .

How can evolution possibly "go against" the second law without life itself going against the second law?

Consider first, what ultimately drives evolution? Mutation, right? Mutations create the variation which evolution requires. Now, which would necessarily generate more entropy: copying DNA exactly, every time, without ever making a single error; or copying DNA with occasional errors, i.e. mutations? Obviously life never mutating, and therefore not creating variation, and therefore not being able to evolve, or at least keep evolving, would violate the second law more (if it were violated at all) than would life that makes occasional copying errors.

What else does evolution require, besides mutation/variation? Well, it requires reproduction. (Obvious.) It requires heritability. (Selected variants pass on the traits which led to their increased reproductive success.) It requires superfecundity. (Organisms produce more offspring than the environment can ultimately support, providing the excess population on which natural selection acts.)

But, wait, living organisms are doing all those things anyway, irrespective of the fact that they may lead to evolution!

Therefore evolution can only "go against" the second law if life itself (evolving or not, that is just the mere fact of life existing and continuing) first "goes against" it.

Since life clearly does not violate the second law, there is a flaw in your logic.

We are not gaining DNA we are losing it.

You know this how? I'm no expert, but I doubt it.

First, there are many types of mutations, and most neither increase or decrease the amount of DNA. For instance: point mutations (no addition or subtraction, just the change of one nucleotide for another), inversion (a DNA sequence gets copied backward) and translocation (a sequence is moved from one chromosome to another, or to a different location on the same chromosome).

OTOH, deletion mutations subtract DNA, but insertion and duplication mutations add DNA. So you must be claiming that deletion mutations are more common than insertion mutations, and are always or systematically so. Do you actually know this to be the case? (If so, how?) Or are you just ASSuming it so?

From what little I know about the DNA copying, editing and error correction mechanisms, I would suspect that deletion mutations are more easily caught and corrected than duplications and insertions. But that's just a guess. If you know better, educate me.

37 posted on 12/06/2009 12:56:30 AM PST by Stultis (Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia; Democrats always opposed waterboarding as torture)
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To: Lera
The original word in Hebrew just like in Job 22:14 means circuit or sphere

I'm even less expert in Hebrew or the Bible than in genetics, but nevertheless I can't find a single instance where the word (chuwg) is translated as "sphere" or "ball" or anything of the like.

Neither do any of the commonly used Hebrew lexicons give the sense of "sphere" to this word. For instance, Strongs says:

Definition
 
  1. circle, circuit, compass
  2. (BDB) vault (of the heavens)
 Translated Words
  KJV (3) - circle, 1; circuit, 1; compass, 1;

NAS (3) - circle, 2; vault, 1;

Furthermore, when I looked at the issue before (sorry, don't remember the verses) I never found sphericity implied by context. Instead the earth, as to its creation or formation, is described in ways that imply flatness. For instance God draws it with a compass on the surface of the waters. He stamps, or pounds or spreads it out. Etc.

The Bible certainly might have conveyed sphericity in any number of ways. For instance, instead of saying that God spread out or pounded out the earth, it could have said that He gathered it together, or that He formed it in His hands, or that He sculpted it. It might have compared the earth to a fruit, or it's surface to the rind of a fruit. But it never does. None of the analogies or language convey sphericity.

38 posted on 12/06/2009 1:21:08 AM PST by Stultis (Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia; Democrats always opposed waterboarding as torture)
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To: Lera

Gee, I’ve read the book numerous times, and have no intention of “proving it wrong”...why would I attempt to prove wrong a book?

YOU made the claim, gave the passage.....and the passage didn’t say what you claimed it did. That’s it....period.

“They” didn’t know squat concerning the scope of the world. “They” knew their pathetic little slice of it, nothing more.


39 posted on 12/07/2009 5:03:14 AM PST by ElectricStrawberry (Didja know that Man walked with 100+ species of large meat eating dinos within the last 4,351 years?)
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