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What Defines an Organism? Biologists Say 'Purpose.'
ICR News ^ | December 10, 2009 | Brian Thomas, M.S.

Posted on 12/10/2009 8:12:50 AM PST by GodGunsGuts

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To: GodGunsGuts

And that article supports YEC how?


151 posted on 12/10/2009 1:36:37 PM PST by stormer
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To: MamaTexan; xcamel
If it's 'not so hard' why can't the exact chemical compounds be named?

You mean like water (H2O), methane (CH4), ammonia (NH3), and hydrogen (H2) hit with electricity to produce amino acids which combine to form proteins?

CO2 → CO + [O] (atomic oxygen)
CH4 + 2[O] → CH2O + H2O
CO + NH3 → HCN + H2O
CH4 + NH3 → HCN + 3H2

152 posted on 12/10/2009 1:36:57 PM PST by mnehring
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To: xcamel
Oh wait.. the fossil and the geologic record bears it all out... what was I thinking..

Apparently the capacity is beyond you since you side stepped any direct answer to the questions posed.

-----

You and GGG failed the same 6th grade science class, didn’t you...

Oh, a purile response from a self proclaimed expert. How predictable.

153 posted on 12/10/2009 1:37:35 PM PST by MamaTexan (If man evolved from apes, why do we still have apes?)
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To: count-your-change
Last time I set you straight on this one..

"Darwin's Evolution is by it's own descriptions materialistic and without the need to refer to any creator god at all."

Old Chuck has been dead a long time. the science and the theory have **evolved** a great deal, much like the airplane and the telephone.

So next time you go flying off on this old canard, call someone who cares.

154 posted on 12/10/2009 1:38:11 PM PST by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: mnehring
Thank you for your detailed response.

Would you happen to know how much electricity is required to produce amino acids?

155 posted on 12/10/2009 1:40:49 PM PST by MamaTexan (If man evolved from apes, why do we still have apes?)
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To: IronKros

The first cells were organisms.

What change happened to the *protolife* to make it an organism?


156 posted on 12/10/2009 1:41:11 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: xcamel

Last time I set you straight on this one..
“Darwin’s Evolution is by it’s own descriptions materialistic and without the need to refer to any creator god at all.”

Old Chuck has been dead a long time. the science and the theory have **evolved** a great deal, much like the airplane and the telephone.

So next time you go flying off on this old canard, call someone who cares.


157 posted on 12/10/2009 1:42:25 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: mnehring
Some of which were seeded directly by GASP!...Meteorites!
158 posted on 12/10/2009 1:42:42 PM PST by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: MamaTexan

Just because you don’t like the answer....


159 posted on 12/10/2009 1:43:32 PM PST by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: MamaTexan

In the lab, the Miller–Urey experiment (reproducible) required very little, a small spark triggered the chemical reaction. I’ll see if I can find the specifics, but I know it was low power, the description was to create the effects of lightening on a very small scale (scaling down to lab size).


160 posted on 12/10/2009 1:44:07 PM PST by mnehring
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To: count-your-change

You having a bunny/pancake moment or something?


161 posted on 12/10/2009 1:45:45 PM PST by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: xcamel
If you subscribe to the panspermia theory.

But then you still have to place the origin of life somewhere else.
Might as well do the dirty work here.
162 posted on 12/10/2009 1:45:45 PM PST by IronKros (Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition. ~Adam Smith, The Wealth)
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To: xcamel; MamaTexan; mnehring

That’s not acceptable unless you can tell us the source of the meteorites.


163 posted on 12/10/2009 1:46:06 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Wacka

Here are the words to the theme (sung by the Bare Naked Ladies). Only the first verse is shown on TV:

Our whole universe was in a hot dense state,
Then nearly fourteen billion years ago expansion started. Wait...
The Earth began to cool,
The autotrophs began to drool,
Neanderthals developed tools,
We built a wall (we built the pyramids),
Math, science, history, unraveling the mysteries,
That all started with the big bang!

“Since the dawn of man” is really not that long,
As every galaxy was formed in less time than it takes to sing this song.
A fraction of a second and the elements were made.
The bipeds stood up straight,
The dinosaurs all met their fate,
They tried to leap but they were late
And they all died (they froze their asses off)
The oceans and pangea
See ya, wouldn’t wanna be ya
Set in motion by the same big bang!

It all started with the big BANG!

It’s expanding ever outward but one day
It will cause the stars to go the other way,
Collapsing ever inward, we won’t be here, it wont be hurt
Our best and brightest figure that it’ll make an even bigger bang!

Australopithecus would really have been sick of us
Debating out while here they’re catching deer (we’re catching viruses)
Religion or astronomy, Encarta, Deuteronomy
It all started with the big bang!

Music and mythology, Einstein and astrology
It all started with the big bang!
It all started with the big BANG!


164 posted on 12/10/2009 1:46:09 PM PST by Wacka
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To: MamaTexan

Still digging for the power, however, posting some of the original papers while I look so I don’t lose the link.

http://www.issol.org/miller/miller1953.pdf


165 posted on 12/10/2009 1:46:50 PM PST by mnehring
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To: mnehring
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_n4_v146/ai_15657614/
166 posted on 12/10/2009 1:47:09 PM PST by IronKros (Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition. ~Adam Smith, The Wealth)
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To: mnehring
And don't forget to mention that 6CO2 + 6H2O + sunlight → C6H12O6 + 6O2. Something to eat and something to breathe!
167 posted on 12/10/2009 1:47:19 PM PST by stormer
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To: mnehring; MamaTexan

That’s right, MamaTexan.

You heard it.

Lightning.

And you know what lightning does to things, don’t you?


168 posted on 12/10/2009 1:47:43 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: xcamel

No need for the seeding theory, these are all pretty common chemicals.


169 posted on 12/10/2009 1:48:07 PM PST by mnehring
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To: IronKros

Not even that complex.. just the right chemicals being in the right place at the right time under the right conditions.


170 posted on 12/10/2009 1:49:16 PM PST by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: metmom
Why? The chemicals involved are virtually universal - created in the first moments of the big-bang. Remember, matter is neither created or destroyed.
171 posted on 12/10/2009 1:51:07 PM PST by stormer
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To: metmom

See post 159.


172 posted on 12/10/2009 1:51:07 PM PST by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: stormer

Only in a cell by chlorophyll.

On its own, you just get lots more Brownian motion in the CO2 and H2O.


173 posted on 12/10/2009 1:51:17 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: xcamel
Just because you don’t like the answer....

Oh, the answer was a predictable one. It's just the arrogant attitude of the source that I despise.

174 posted on 12/10/2009 1:52:27 PM PST by MamaTexan (If man evolved from apes, why do we still have apes?)
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To: metmom
And you know what lightning does to things, don’t you?

It depends on what you mean by 'things' and the power you are talking about. For the most part, I'm sure the answer you are looking for relates to "combustion" but remember that combustion is just a chemical reaction. If you are talking about a combustible material, then yes, combustion will occur, but lightening can also trigger chemicals to combine (throwing off or adding electrons into the mix, etc) or break apart.

175 posted on 12/10/2009 1:53:01 PM PST by mnehring
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To: stormer

Back to my favorite cyanobacter - turning the CO2 planet into an O2 paradise (and killing off most of whatever else had evolved up to that point)


176 posted on 12/10/2009 1:53:42 PM PST by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: metmom

Recently, it was shown that Uracil (taked teh place of Thymine in RNA can be produced under conditions in outer space.
Science to pyrimidine (the precursor to Uracil) which has been shown to exist in space, to low temps (near absolute zero, with water (ice) which has been is very abundant in space, on the moon and Mars, and subjected it to radiation (simulating cosmic rays). They found that Uracil was produced.
One of the building blocks of RNA could possibly be produced in space.

As CSNY said “We are stardust, we are golden, we are billion year old carbon...”


177 posted on 12/10/2009 1:54:34 PM PST by Wacka
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To: stormer

So, all those chemicals left to themselves will just sort of self-assemble under the *right* conditions?

And how long do those *right conditions* have to last to produce chemical structures complex enough to be viable?


178 posted on 12/10/2009 1:55:38 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: mnehring

I just threw that in because a friend of mine just had a find from Kansas analyzed and it was loaded with simple amino acids.

really got the “planet 4” theory going again (asteroid belt)


179 posted on 12/10/2009 1:56:05 PM PST by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: mnehring
In the lab, the Miller–Urey experiment (reproducible) required very little, a small spark triggered the chemical reaction.

Thank you. Not that I give credence to the science of PBS specials, but the last one I caught on the subject was talking about a massive amount of electricity from lightening. It didn't seem rational at the time because that amount of power would seem to COOK life, not create it. :-)

180 posted on 12/10/2009 1:56:22 PM PST by MamaTexan (If man evolved from apes, why do we still have apes?)
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To: metmom
What change happened to the *protolife* to make it an organism?

They read A Purpose Driven Life?

181 posted on 12/10/2009 1:56:34 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: MamaTexan

Kill the messenger, Eh?


182 posted on 12/10/2009 1:58:18 PM PST by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: Wacka

I have Cott-Shopitis -need to proofread.
taked teh =takes the
Science to =Scientists took


183 posted on 12/10/2009 2:00:03 PM PST by Wacka
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To: Wacka

I have Cott-Shopitis -need to proofread.
taked teh =takes the
Science to =Scientists took


184 posted on 12/10/2009 2:00:10 PM PST by Wacka
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To: xcamel

You having a bunny/pancake moment or something?


185 posted on 12/10/2009 2:01:15 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: MamaTexan

The temperature of a lightning bolt is about 30,000K or 50,000F.

Just enough to assemble some chemicals necessary for life to begin, eh?

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/DavidFriedman.shtml


186 posted on 12/10/2009 2:02:35 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: MamaTexan; mnehring

It has more to do with how quickly the lightning charge would dissipate in water (or chemical soup), or even wet ground. There would nearly always be a “zone” in the dissipation field that provided the correct voltage/power level to do the job.


187 posted on 12/10/2009 2:03:04 PM PST by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: mnehring; MamaTexan
In the lab,.....

'Nuff said.

188 posted on 12/10/2009 2:03:38 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: GodGunsGuts
So it is your contention that the zeros and ones are doing the spelling?

You said spelling couldn't be done with four letters. I'm saying you're spelling with TWO letters - 1 and 0.

189 posted on 12/10/2009 2:03:52 PM PST by jimt
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To: xcamel
Kill the messenger, Eh?

My, my. Aren't you just the Drama Camel.

I never said anything about killing the messenger, I just think it's beyond the pale for someone to jump into the middle of a conversation and act as if they are God's gift to the world and everyone else is dumber than a box of rocks.

I posed simple questions that YOU failed to even attempt to address.

One one think that if you were the possessor of such massive knowledge on the subject that you believe yourself to be, you would try to get others interested as well, but NO.

YOU'RE too busy deriding others for their posts in order to inflate your own myopic sense of self-importance.

Your a user...and I have no inclination to waste my time in such nonproductive pursuits as inflating your already OVER inflated ego.

Have a nice day.

190 posted on 12/10/2009 2:06:03 PM PST by MamaTexan (If man evolved from apes, why do we still have apes?)
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To: metmom

If you would take a second and study, instead of just reading the cover, you would see how mistaken your conclusion is.


191 posted on 12/10/2009 2:06:42 PM PST by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: MamaTexan
that amount of power would seem to COOK life, not create it.

See #175. At the stage I described above with Miller-Urey, this is just the point where the building blocks are made, very simple chemical reactions. Once the amino acids are formed from this point, natural chemical reactions occur which don't require this massive of an external trigger. Simple chemicals combining by way of electrons being shifted around.

192 posted on 12/10/2009 2:06:44 PM PST by mnehring
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To: metmom
'Nuff said.

Exactly, especially when you figure the earth is a gigantic petri-dish full of chemicals- one massive lab.

193 posted on 12/10/2009 2:08:07 PM PST by mnehring
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To: MamaTexan

Typical creationist.. give them facts, they insult you and storm away mad.


194 posted on 12/10/2009 2:08:42 PM PST by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: Wacka
DNA is not super sophisticated, unless you don’t have the basic education to understand it. It’s only As, Gs, Ts, and Cs. Pretty basic to me.

Computers are not super sophisticated, unless you don't have the basic education to understand them. It's only 0's and 1's. Pretty basic to me.

195 posted on 12/10/2009 2:09:52 PM PST by UCANSEE2
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To: mnehring

Who were the scientists then?


196 posted on 12/10/2009 2:13:17 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

No one mentioned any scientists. A petri-dish doesn’t have a scientist living in it making the little critters grow (that is, unless you are into the whole new-age, quasi-quantum physics stuff about nothing existing without an observer), it is just chemicals reacting. The entire world’s environment through out its millions of years of history has far more chemicals and variables than can ever be imagined in a ‘lab’.

From my view, just like an architect, God had all this in mind before the first spark of the big bang. No need to come along and fix it and push it along. From the first atom striking another atom, the process was in place. An architect doesn’t figure out how to build something as he goes along, it is all a concept before the first nail is hammered.


197 posted on 12/10/2009 2:19:05 PM PST by mnehring
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To: mnehring
Simple chemicals combining by way of electrons being shifted around.

Yet there is still a large leap from simple chemicals to actual life.

Plus, there must be, by definition, a large amount of extra material to compensate for 'mistakes' should an improper combination be made.

-------

Please understand I'm not trying to tell you you're incorrect, it just seems that mathmatically, the right combinations occuring at the right time under exactly the right circumstances receiving the exact amount of electricity required to even begin life would be, well, astronomical.

Just MHO, of course.

198 posted on 12/10/2009 2:25:14 PM PST by MamaTexan (If man evolved from apes, why do we still have apes?)
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To: MamaTexan
Yet there is still a large leap from simple chemicals to actual life.

Plus, there must be, by definition, a large amount of extra material to compensate for 'mistakes' should an improper combination be made.

1. Absolutely, what I posted was just the first part, albeit the most important. The formation of amino acids. Those form into proteins. Once you have these basic items, the best analogy I can think of is a magnet, it starts the process of gathering chemicals like a magnet attracts metals. Those chemicals it combines with combine, etc. 2. You are correct, which is why all of the oxygen, water, hydrogen, etc, all around you haven't turned into amino acids. It is a very unique occurrence with specific conditions.

..it just seems that mathmatically, the right combinations occuring at the right time under exactly the right circumstances receiving the exact amount of electricity required to even begin life would be, well, astronomical.

Absolutely, the probability is low, but not impossible. However, if we can figure these things out and reproduce it in the 1950s, less than 60 years after we were riding around on horses and going to the bathroom in outhouses, that perspective kind of makes you look at the 'astronomical' nature of the circumstances a little differently.

199 posted on 12/10/2009 2:31:37 PM PST by mnehring
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To: IronKros

The Theory of Evolution does not cover the origin of life.

I don’t remember writing to you. Just so you know, I do not care what anyone else believes and have no interest in convincing anyone else. Just stating what I know to be true.

As for me, if life evolves, there must be life. Evolution flatly rejects the creations of life (as do I), but does believe that everything came from a single origin. For that notion there is no evidence at all, just a “story” which I also do not buy.

And by the way, “Big Bang Theory, Abiogenesis and Evolution” are not theories, they are all hypotheses, so far all without verifying evidence.

Hank


200 posted on 12/10/2009 2:32:17 PM PST by Hank Kerchief
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