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Fresh Salamander Tissue Found in Solid Rock
ICR News ^ | December 11, 2009 | Brian Thomas, M.S.

Posted on 12/11/2009 8:38:32 AM PST by GodGunsGuts

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To: GodGunsGuts
Here is an excerpt from the abstract in the original paper (underlining mine): The muscle is preserved organically, in three dimensions, and with the highest fidelity of morphological preservation yet documented from the fossil record. Preserved ultrastructural details include myofilaments, endomysium, layering within the sarcolemma, and endomysial circulatory vessels infilled with blood. Slight differences between the fossil tissues and their counterparts in extant amphibians reflect limited degradation during fossilization.

This is a fossil with organic (carbon containing) materials, vs the normal minerals. Same situation occurs when fossils are found in coal.

Why do you and BTMS* continue to lie?

51 posted on 12/11/2009 9:27:33 AM PST by Wacka
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To: xcamel; metmom; DaveLoneRanger; editor-surveyor; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; MrB; GourmetDan; ...

xcamel is back to calling Christians on Free Republic the Taliban again—GGG


52 posted on 12/11/2009 9:29:54 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

Yep, when Christianity is “in power”,
people get their heads cut off,
girls can’t go to school,
women have to walk around in burkas, etc.

Happens every time throughout history....

um... /sarc

xc - stop being a dumbass


53 posted on 12/11/2009 9:32:34 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a humanist and a Satanist is that the latter knows who he's working for.)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Not only do you post crap, you can’t read either.


54 posted on 12/11/2009 9:33:10 AM PST by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: GodGunsGuts

“As I said, there seems to be a bit of confustion as to what to call these specimins. “

They are called “Fossils”

“But “organically preserved” muscle tissue, complete with blood vessels infilled with blood, is not what is traditionally understood as “fossilized.””

Is that why they still call them “fossils”?

“Unfortunately, no matter how many times you pull your head out, the soft-tissue will still be organically preserved soft tissue.”

They will still be fossils.

GGG - you and your ICR buddies are simply lying about this one. You should drop it before you humiliate yourself further.

This is a complete fabrication or unrestrained stupidity.

Quit pitching me softballs. You are unable to post a credible “creation science” article. Despite your hundreds of posts, not even one is a credible article showing credible science sourced by “creation science”.

No more mulligans for you. Quit lying.


55 posted on 12/11/2009 9:37:14 AM PST by RFEngineer
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To: Wacka

The only person who is lying is the person who is calling Brian Thomas and myself liars. You have provided ZERO proof that the organic material came from anything other than the salamander itself.

PS, you might want to get a chain saw and trim that nose of yours...it seems to be growing longer with every reply.


56 posted on 12/11/2009 9:37:16 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

You and Brian peddling lies again?

From the original paper cited in BTMS’* piece of rubbish....

“Previous examples of SOFT TISSUES FOSSILISED in this way have been limited to samples extracted from amber or inside bone – a very rare set of circumstances.”

Stop lying.


57 posted on 12/11/2009 9:38:53 AM PST by Natufian (t)
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To: GodGunsGuts

xcamel is a child who has no real arguments to make- expect nothign but lies and spurious childish insults from her- Her ignorance about Christians and hte bible come hsining htrough loud and clear- the more she speaks, the more people realize what a child she really is


58 posted on 12/11/2009 9:39:35 AM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: RFEngineer

No lies. You only wish they were lies, because soft-tissue finds in supposedly multi-million year old fossils are becoming a common occurance, and they directly contradict the evo-assumption of deep time. Nice try though.


59 posted on 12/11/2009 9:41:25 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

Lets try a little hard truth for a minute
(using your posting logic)

Fundamentalist Muslims == Creationists
Taliban == Fundamentalist Muslims

Taliban == Creationists

Nobody said you had to like the truth.


60 posted on 12/11/2009 9:41:37 AM PST by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: xcamel

Very DU-like. So shrill. Drown out the voice of another (or try to anyway) with curses and vileness. Thats ok camel, we do love you and do pray that you will turn to your Creator before it is too late for you.

In the meantime, please try to undertand that we mean you no offense at all when a thread is posted that supports our Faith. That being said, why do you take offense?


61 posted on 12/11/2009 9:42:18 AM PST by RoadGumby (Ask me about Ducky)
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To: Natufian

You are late to the party. You assertion has already been rebutted. Next.

Oh yeah, and stop lying!


62 posted on 12/11/2009 9:43:39 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

It quite clearly states in the paper that the material was fossilized. The reason it’s making news is because soft tissue rarely fossilizes compared to bone, teeth etc.

There was no orginal flesh, just fossilized soft tissue.


63 posted on 12/11/2009 9:44:32 AM PST by Natufian (t)
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To: GodGunsGuts

“No lies.”

Complete lies. Trace the post to ICR then to it’s source. You are lying about this find. You know it.

“because soft-tissue finds in supposedly multi-million year old fossils are becoming a common occurance,”

It has never happened. I’d admit it if it did happen, I don’t have an agenda like you do. I don’t have a FR fan base to keep happy.

The only “fresh meat” in this post are the lies you’ve thrown to your fawning fans of “creation science”. They are misguided - you are just a common fool and liar.


64 posted on 12/11/2009 9:45:58 AM PST by RFEngineer
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To: RoadGumby

Lying to “support faith” is OK?

BTMS* and GGG are lying as usual. BTMS* has a link to the abstract of the paper. Read it, not BTMS*’s lies.


65 posted on 12/11/2009 9:46:42 AM PST by Wacka
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To: GodGunsGuts

Again, from the article used by Brian to put together his lying article:

“Previous examples of soft tissues FOSSILISED in this way have been limited to samples extracted from amber or inside bone – a very rare set of circumstances.”

”We noticed that there had been very little degradation since it was originally FOSSILISED about 18 million years ago, making it the highest quality soft tissue preservation ever documented in the fossil record.”

You may note that there are references to the stuff being FOSSILIZED. Brian magically skimmed over them in his paper.

How do you account for them?


66 posted on 12/11/2009 9:48:26 AM PST by Natufian (t)
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To: Natufian; GodGunsGuts
Yeah, he is, and GGG is his biggest parrot.

"After first sighting the material, we completed a series of highly detailed analyses to limit the possibility that it was simply an artefact of preservation or something unrelated to the biology of the animal.” says UCD geologist, Dr Maria McNamara, the lead author of the report.

”We noticed that there had been very little degradation since it was originally fossilised about 18 million years ago, making it the highest quality soft tissue preservation ever documented in the fossil record.”

According to the University College Dublin geologists, the muscle tissue is organically preserved in three dimensions, with circulatory vessels infilled with blood.

Using the same sampling methods and high resolution imaging that led to this find, scientists will now begin to investigate existing fossils in national museums and elsewhere across the world, for similar types of soft tissue preservation.

Although examples of soft tissue preservation are likely to remain incredibly rare, further discoveries will help scientists paint a better picture of life on earth since the beginning of evolutionary time."

(from the actual scientific article: UCD)

67 posted on 12/11/2009 9:48:55 AM PST by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: Wacka

Lying to evos is equivalent to lying to AGW-types.


68 posted on 12/11/2009 9:50:12 AM PST by RoadGumby (Ask me about Ducky)
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To: RoadGumby

Come back and post when you can be reasonable, or your mother lets you out of the parsonage basement...which ever happens first.


69 posted on 12/11/2009 9:50:39 AM PST by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: RoadGumby

Are you sure you’re not a muslim? I thought only in islam was lying to further the cause a legitimate tactic.


70 posted on 12/11/2009 9:52:25 AM PST by Natufian (t)
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To: xcamel

Your definiton of ‘reasonable’ is ‘Agree with me.’ Just like any other liberals is.


71 posted on 12/11/2009 9:54:08 AM PST by RoadGumby (Ask me about Ducky)
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To: GodGunsGuts

I could really care less what xcamel think of Christians on FR. You have already exposed xcamel as a troll.


72 posted on 12/11/2009 9:55:44 AM PST by christianhomeschoolmommaof3 (Best thing about Cash for Clunkers is that 90% of the Obama bumper stickers are now off the road.)
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To: RoadGumby

Let me get this straight.

So knowingly lying (breaking one of the ten commandments) to back up what YOU believe is perfectly OK.


73 posted on 12/11/2009 9:57:00 AM PST by Wacka
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To: GodGunsGuts
Nice little article at psy.org too. An amazing find without doubt but it would fit equally well with what I believe the age of life on earth to be, in thousands not billions or millions of years.

It also gives some indication that many of the animals found died and were preserved immediately. I look forward to more details on this one coming out.

Thanks for ping!

74 posted on 12/11/2009 9:57:49 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: GodGunsGuts
Supposedly ancient organically preserved soft tissue discoveries are known as “fresh meat” finds.

Remind me one of these days to let you know the difference between an adjective and a scientific term. College sophomores call Freshman girls "fresh meat" too. Sometimes these discoveries are called "explosive", that doesn't mean the discovery is made of combustible and highly reactive material.

75 posted on 12/11/2009 9:57:52 AM PST by mnehring
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To: Wacka; RoadGumby

The evidence is compelling so far....


76 posted on 12/11/2009 9:58:12 AM PST by Natufian (t)
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To: Salamander

You hiding place uncovered?


77 posted on 12/11/2009 9:58:23 AM PST by shibumi (" ..... then we will fight in the shade.")
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To: GodGunsGuts
Specific evidence please. BTW...Are you saying that the soft tissue of the T. Rex and Hadrosaur were also replaced by exogenous organic minerals?

Check the post above, I linked to the paper with the detailed information on the find. I didn't say the material had to be exogenous organic, some fossils, such as fossils in coal, are endogenous minerals, such as nothing remaining but the carbon or calcium that was present inside the original organism.

78 posted on 12/11/2009 10:00:24 AM PST by mnehring
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To: count-your-change

You’re mistaken. The find was of FOSSILIZED soft tissue. You can read all about it direct from the scientists themselves right here:

http://www.ucd.ie/news/2009/11NOV09/051109_muscle.html


79 posted on 12/11/2009 10:00:45 AM PST by Natufian (t)
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To: xcamel

Lol! I usually don’t mock people but this “logic” is laughable. Because the taliban are creationist then all creationists are taliban!?! HA HA HA!
Just because Christians are prolife that doesn’t make all prolifers Christians.


80 posted on 12/11/2009 10:03:44 AM PST by christianhomeschoolmommaof3 (Best thing about Cash for Clunkers is that 90% of the Obama bumper stickers are now off the road.)
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To: Wacka

Wacka, you have tried before to put words in myouth, won’t work this time either.

Let me get this straight, you think it is ok to call your Creator a Liar in His Word?


81 posted on 12/11/2009 10:04:22 AM PST by RoadGumby (Ask me about Ducky)
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To: GodGunsGuts

“I have read several articles and papers on this find now, and they all say the flesh was “organically preserved.””

Sounds like it has been naturally “canned” Sealed in mud, then baked by a volcano.
It was a primitave version of Spam, Hormel Spander. Chopped salamander shoulder meat with salamander meat added, salt, water, sugar, and sodium nitrite to help keep its color.


82 posted on 12/11/2009 10:05:49 AM PST by READINABLUESTATE
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To: xcamel

Oops ping to 72. Sorry I meant to include you in that post.


83 posted on 12/11/2009 10:06:57 AM PST by christianhomeschoolmommaof3 (Best thing about Cash for Clunkers is that 90% of the Obama bumper stickers are now off the road.)
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To: RoadGumby

Answer my question.

Are GGG and BTMS* your creator? They are lying.


84 posted on 12/11/2009 10:14:53 AM PST by Wacka
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To: xcamel

“Lets try a little hard truth for a minute
(using your posting logic)

Fundamentalist Muslims == Creationists
Taliban == Fundamentalist Muslims

Taliban == Creationists”

This is YOUR logic, camel - no one has stated this but you...

Besides the fact there is a HUGE difference between Allah and Yahweh (Jehovah)....your contempt is on display for everyone to see....why is it you will never hold yourself accountable for the comments you make?


85 posted on 12/11/2009 10:16:59 AM PST by scottdeus12 (Jesus is real, whether you believe in Him or not.)
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To: RoadGumby

My creator isn’t a liar because what was found is real.He isn’t lying. The universe is about 14 billion years old, the earth about 5 billion and evolution is perfectly compatible with Christianity (which included the Catholic Church).

You must have a different creator then.

Satan????


86 posted on 12/11/2009 10:19:44 AM PST by Wacka
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To: GodGunsGuts

No surprise there......


87 posted on 12/11/2009 10:21:03 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: christianhomeschoolmommaof3

Take a deep breath - that my be the only epiphany you ever have.


88 posted on 12/11/2009 10:22:28 AM PST by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: mnehring
"The ICR article misrepresents the original findings."

Not so!

"Scientists have extracted organically preserved muscle tissue from an 18 million years old salamander fossil. The discovery by researchers from University College Dublin, the UK and Spain, reported in the Proceedings of the Royal Society B shows that soft tissue can be preserved under a broader set of fossil conditions than previously known."

Their use of the term "fossilized" simply means encased in rock in this case.

"We came across the muscle tissue during our analysis of several hundred fossil samples taken from an ancient lake bed in Southern Spain. It was immediately identifiable by the sinewy texture visible under the microscope"

Soft tissue! Not mineralized. Were this sample even 20,000 years old it would have mostly converted to methane and leaked out of the rock by now.

89 posted on 12/11/2009 10:22:58 AM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bomb-a administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: xcamel
And you merrily follow the talibani creationists right back to the 7th century, and straight to gates of hell...

That's an odd statement. If we creationists are wrong, then there is no hell. If there is no hell, how could we go there or lead anyone else there?

90 posted on 12/11/2009 10:23:10 AM PST by SandyInSeattle (Socialism is the plundering of the productive by the unaccountable)
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To: scottdeus12

Really? You better check with Abraham on that... or are you LYING again, like the rest of your little buddies...


91 posted on 12/11/2009 10:24:58 AM PST by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: Natufian

Right from the scientists themselves: “We came across the muscle tissue during our analysis of several hundred fossil samples taken from an ancient lake bed in Southern Spain. It was immediately identifiable by the sinewy texture visible under the microscope,” says Dr Patrick Orr from the UCD School of Geological Sciences, University College Dublin. According to the University College Dublin geologists, the muscle tissue is organically preserved in three dimensions, with circulatory vessels infilled with blood.” You and others have in mind an erroneous view of what a FOSSIL must be composed of. A FOSSIL need not be mineral that has replaced the original but can the original its self as the correct understanding of the word FOSSIL shows: “Merriam-Webster Dictionary Main Entry: 1fos·sil Pronunciation: \ˈfä-sÉ™l\ Function: adjective Etymology: Latin fossilis obtained by digging, from fodere to dig — more at bed Date: 1604 1 : preserved from a past geologic age 2 : being or resembling a fossil 3 : of or relating to fossil fuel” It’s the relative age and preservation that that earns the term FOSSIL not the means of such. So before the petty insults and accusations of lying fly around let’s see why tissue is not tissue and preserved is not preserved, “direct from the scientists themselves”.


92 posted on 12/11/2009 10:25:41 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Natufian

Right from the scientists themselves: “We came across the muscle tissue during our analysis of several hundred fossil samples taken from an ancient lake bed in Southern Spain. It was immediately identifiable by the sinewy texture visible under the microscope,” says Dr Patrick Orr from the UCD School of Geological Sciences, University College Dublin. According to the University College Dublin geologists, the muscle tissue is organically preserved in three dimensions, with circulatory vessels infilled with blood.” You and others have in mind an erroneous view of what a FOSSIL must be composed of. A FOSSIL need not be mineral that has replaced the original but can the original its self as the correct understanding of the word FOSSIL shows: “Merriam-Webster Dictionary Main Entry: 1fos·sil Pronunciation: \ˈfä-sÉ™l\ Function: adjective Etymology: Latin fossilis obtained by digging, from fodere to dig — more at bed Date: 1604 1 : preserved from a past geologic age 2 : being or resembling a fossil 3 : of or relating to fossil fuel” It’s the relative age and preservation that that earns the term FOSSIL not the means of such. So before the petty insults and accusations of lying fly around let’s see why tissue is not tissue and preserved is not preserved, “direct from the scientists themselves”.


93 posted on 12/11/2009 10:27:19 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: RFEngineer; GodGunsGuts

Fine. Then from this source,.......

Ancient muscle tissue extracted from 18 million year old fossil
http://www.ucd.ie/news/2009/11NOV09/051109_muscle.html

“The scientists claim that their discovery is unequivocal evidence that high-fidelity organic preservation of extremely decay prone soft tissues is more common in the fossil record – the only physical record of the history of life on earth.”

These scientists are the ones who clearly implied that this one find meant that this was *more common*.

One sample? *More common*?

More common than what? Nothing?

No stretching of the truth or facts here. Nothing to see. Move along, move along.....


94 posted on 12/11/2009 10:28:09 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: RoadGumby

Wacka is a liar and a TarBaby, and has no respect for himself, so don’t expect him to show any respect for anyone else either.


95 posted on 12/11/2009 10:29:03 AM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bomb-a administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: christianhomeschoolmommaof3

How’s this sound? *Just because communists are atheists, means all atheists are communists.*

Same kind of reasoning.......


96 posted on 12/11/2009 10:30:24 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Wacka

My (and your) Creator tells of Creation. A fool calls God a liar. You and your ‘group’ are a sorry excuse. You sound for all the owrld like a lib/Dem/diversity crowd. Shrill and strident, attempting to silence anyone who might have a differing though (In the name of ‘truth’ and ‘freethinking’ of course).

Play your word games. ‘Tis amusing.

We will get our turn to meet our Cretaor. It’ll be even more amusing (yet somehow sad) to watch you trying to explain.


97 posted on 12/11/2009 10:31:23 AM PST by RoadGumby (Ask me about Ducky)
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To: count-your-change
From dictionary.com :

fos⋅sil   /ˈfɒsəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [fos-uhl] Show IPA Use fossil in a Sentence See web results for fossil See images of fossil –noun 1. any remains, impression, or trace of a living thing of a former geologic age, as a skeleton, footprint, etc. 2. a markedly outdated or old-fashioned person or thing. 3. a linguistic form that is archaic except in certain restricted contexts, as nonce in for the nonce, or that follows a rule or pattern that is no longer productive, as the sentence So be it. –adjective 4. of the nature of a fossil: fossil insects. 5. belonging to a past epoch or discarded system; antiquated: a fossil approach to economics.

Creationists are definition #2, I believe.

98 posted on 12/11/2009 10:32:42 AM PST by Wacka
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To: xcamel; All

“You better check with Abraham on that... or are you LYING again..”

Wow, you are really deranged - or a closet Muslim (or both)?. So by your logic Muhammed was a prophet of God - is that what you think Camel?

CAN EVERYONE SEE THIS....CAMEL THINKS CHRISTIANS ARE THE SAME AS MUSLIMS!!


99 posted on 12/11/2009 10:33:00 AM PST by scottdeus12 (Jesus is real, whether you believe in Him or not.)
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To: Natufian
Right from the scientists themselves:

“We came across the muscle tissue during our analysis of several hundred fossil samples taken from an ancient lake bed in Southern Spain. It was immediately identifiable by the sinewy texture visible under the microscope,” says Dr Patrick Orr from the UCD School of Geological Sciences, University College Dublin.

According to the University College Dublin geologists, the muscle tissue is organically preserved in three dimensions, with circulatory vessels infilled with blood.”

You and others have in mind an erroneous view of what a FOSSIL must be composed of. A FOSSIL need not be mineral that has replaced the original but can the original its self as the correct understanding of the word FOSSIL shows:

“Merriam-Webster Dictionary Main Entry: 1fos·sil Pronunciation: \ˈfä-sÉ™l\ Function: adjective Etymology: Latin fossilis obtained by digging, from fodere to dig — more at bed Date: 1604 1 : preserved from a past geologic age 2 : being or resembling a fossil 3 : of or relating to fossil fuel”

It's the relative age and preservation that that earns the term FOSSIL not the means of such. So before the petty insults and accusations of lying fly around let's see why tissue is not tissue and preserved is not preserved, “direct from the scientists themselves”.

100 posted on 12/11/2009 10:33:04 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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