Skip to comments.Rules of engagement killing U.S. soldiers
Posted on 12/13/2009 6:49:35 PM PST by USALiberty
New military rules of engagement ostensibly to protect Afghan civilians are putting the lives of U.S. forces in jeopardy, claim Army and Marine sources, as the Taliban learns to game plan based the rules' imposed limits.
The rules of engagement, or ROEs, apply to all coalition forces of the United States and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Their enactment is in response to Afghan President Hamid Karzai's complaints over mounting civilian deaths apparently occurring in firefights.
Despite the fact that the newly arrived U.S. commander in Afghanistan, General Stanley McChrystal, imposed the more restrictive ROEs to minimize the killing of innocent civilians, however, the Taliban is well aware of them and has its own forces acting in ways to counteract them.
(Excerpt) Read more at wnd.com ...
They can’t engage or shoot unless in dire danger. This means if a trooper clearly sees a Talib planting an IED, s/he cannot fire at him/her/it. This is because the IED over there is not specifically targeting him/her.
IT ONLY SOUNDS MADE UP...
THAT is the intent of the Guy in the White House.
Will the generals put an end to this madness?
” No night or surprise searches
Villagers are to be warned prior to searches
Afghan National Army, or ANA, or Afghan National Police, or ANP, must accompany U.S. units on searches
U.S. soldiers may not fire at insurgents unless they are preparing to fire first
U.S. forces cannot engage insurgents if civilians are present
Only women can search women
Troops can fire on insurgents if they catch them placing an IED but not if insurgents walk away from where the explosives are.”
Yes they are.
Obama intends to lose this war in the most humiliating, for America, way possible
Your kidding right?
lol. Those guys are probably willing to follow whatever Obama says.
This is absolutely silly!
You seem to forget that the good General was chosen/handpicked by the Islamist in Chief to be in command in Afganistan, so what else would he do?
I agree 100%. If McChrystal had any integrity or decency at all he would quit rather than jeopardize the lives of our sons and daughters with these assinine "rules". Apparently, McChrystal is just another selfish buffoon, begging for another star.
You have officers that are patriots, and officers that learn to play the political game and get their cheese. We remember the patriots, and soon forget the others.
Pull them out, if they can’t fight.
It’s not silly, when it is costing the lives of our soldiers.
Two real examples I’ve heard of:
Can’t fire on women carrying ammo to the fighters who are shooting at our troops. Cease fire when the women are passing out the ammo.
Can’t fire at the Taliban with the binoculars, adjusting the mortar fire on our troops. He is not holding a “weapon,” merely binoculars to help improve the aim of the mortar teams killing our troops.
I mean silly rule not silly concern about the rule
Not only in Afghanistan.
I have considered that unacceptable in Iraq, too.
While I supported both Iraq I and II, it became evident immediately that our soldiers were hobbled by political correctness.
I immediately changed my wind. I would not fight any war under the rules our youngest and finest have to follow.
Fight to win; to win quickly or not at all.
Consider no target off limits under any circumstances if our troops are being fired on.
Unless, of course, the cowards that make up the stupid ROEs are there beside me. Yes, specially the CIC!
I had read an article by an ex-Green Beret who said there would be less collateral damage in the long run, if we just went in and brought the enemy to their knees by fighting with a vengeance.
I know, I was just cranky in general after reading that crap.
U.S. TROOPS BATTLE BOTH TALIBAN AND THEIR OWN RULES
New Obama Military Rules of Engagement:, Dont shoot back
RULES OF ENGAGEMENT REVISITED
OBAMAS RULES OF ENGAGEMENT IN AFGHANISTAN COSTING OUR TROOPS LIVES
THE RULES MURDERING OUR TROOPS
...I recognize that the carefully controlled and disciplined employment of force entails risks to our troops...
...The Taliban cannot militarily defeat us - but we can defeat ourselves...
This is all that comes to my mind when I read that:
We are pinned down. We are running low on ammo. We have no air. Weve lost today, Marine Maj. Kevin Williams, 37, said through his translator to his Afghan counterpart, responding to the latters repeated demands for helicopters.
Were pinned down: 4 U.S. Marines die in Afghan ambush
Obama orders Miranda rights in Afghanistan
Reading Miranda Rights to Terrorists Is Crazy and Stupid, Say GOP Congressmen
Miranda rights for terrorists: Next, toothbrushes and teddy bears!
NUMBER OF WOUNDED TROOPS IN AFGHANISTAN INCREASING
WASHINGTON Far from winding down, the numbers of U.S. soldiers coming home wounded have continued to swell. The problem is especially acute among those fighting in Afghanistan, where nearly four times as many troops were injured in October as a year ago.
Amputations, burns, brain injuries and shrapnel wounds proliferate in Afghanistan, due mostly to increasingly potent improvised bombs targeting U.S. forces. Snipers bullets and mortar rounds also are to blame...
Troops can fire at an insurgent if they catch him placing an IED but not if insurgents are walking away from an area where explosives have been laid.
Giving the enemy the opportunity to get away and strike again. Incomprehensible.
I hate to think how many Americans are not aware of this threads subject or this
Obama orders Miranda rights in Afghanistan
Have you seen this? This man knows of which he speaks. He is a great advocate for our Warriors.
Fallen Marines father wants change in Afghanistan
It was the last way John Bernard would have wanted his voice to gain prominence in the national debate over the war in Afghanistan. The retired Marine had been writing to lawmakers for weeks complaining of the new rules of engagement he believed put U.S. troops at unacceptable risk in the insurgency-wracked country. He got little response.
Then Bernards only son, 21-year-old Lance Cpl. Joshua Bernard a Marine like his dad was killed in an insurgent ambush in Afghanistans volatile Helmand province, the latest victim of a surge in U.S. combat deaths.
Congressman Mike Michaud 7/09/2009 08:01 1724 Longworth HOBWashington, DC 20515-1902
I am writing to you today as an American citizen, 26 year veteran of the United States Marine Corps, committed Christian, Husband, Father of two and a businessman. I am also writing to you as the Father of a Marine who is, as all of his brothers in arms are, in harms way. That by itself is not a cause for concern for me because as a Warrior I understand two things:(1) it is the very nature of the calling to which we have been called that we will be thrust into dangerous, even life threatening situations to fight the enemies of our country and (2) that there could not possibly be a safer place to be than in the company of fellow Marines. In any case, that is the nature of the business and those who serve in this capacity have long since dealt with the realities of life in uniform.
There are, however, certain expectations, an unspoken trust within the ranks of those of us who serve and have served in this capacity. One of those is that we have a belief that as Americans, our leadership will not frivolously spend our blood on unworthy pursuit. To those of us who serve, let me be very clear to those of you who hold our lives in your hands; this means that the reason we may die can ultimately be defined as protecting homeland, family and fellow American lives (spelled US citizens). We also assume we will not be used as pawns in some personal vendetta or worse some career building scheme; that we will not be asked to spill our blood in a foreign land to defend the indefensible. We expect we will be able to do that for which we were trained; export violence with ferocity and drive our enemies to their knees with the ultimate goal of ending the conflict by forcing them to do our will. Such are the dreams and aspirations of the Warrior. Men like this seek to serve side by side with like-minded men prepared to meet their destiny on the field of battle; living a life of honor while testing personal courage in the forge of combat. Our nations Warriors have no other expectations, no visions of grandeur, no careers to bolster, no kingdoms to lord over, no sovereignty to subvert. These men just seek to serve their country.
Now that you have ever so basic an understanding of the intrinsic nature of the Warrior; I hope to encourage you to show them at least the dignity of thoughtful and painstaking decision-making when considering when and where to thrust them into the fires of hell. My demand is that you emphatically understand that this decision will have eternal consequences for the men involved and their families. I also expect this decision to be for the simple reason of defense of country and countrymen (again spelled United States Citizens).
If any part of you still understands that you were sent to Washington DC for the sole purpose of defending these shores and to defend the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of the citizens of this nation; and if you still believe you are first a servant of all, then you yet may possess the ability to understand the immorality of what I am about to share with you and the necessity to change this policy NOW.
President Obama has seen fit to replace the sitting ISAF commander with a General McChrystal (see Bio at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_A._McChrystal). Suffice it to say that Gen McChrystals understanding of the Warrior ethos is somewhat askew from the mainstream. Also let us cut to the chase and identify him more as a political mouthpiece than a field commander. Add to this the dubious addition of General James L. Jones (see bio at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_L._Jones), who unlike McChrystal has actual combat experience but still shares the same ultimate goals and one world vision as both McChrystal and Obama. What you have here is an unholy trinity injecting their shared philosophy of spare the civilians at all cost even though those civilians are not US citizens and are in fact complicit in their own misfortune. The new ROE presented by McChrystal and under which operation Khanjar was mounted is nothing less than disgraceful, immoral and fatal for our Marines, Sailors and Soldiers on the ground. The Marines and Soldiers that are holding territories of dubious worth like Now Zad and Golestan without reinforcement, denial of fire-support and refusal to allow them to hunt and kill the very enemy we are there to confront are nothing more than sitting ducks. Denying them even the ability to fight, which is their only purpose for existing, to defend themselves in a foreign land that sees them first as agents of the devil is detestable to the secular world and immoral to the rest of us. And for those of us with vested interests thrust into that foreign land; it angers us. The links I have provided will give you some indication of the insanity of the current situation and the suicidal position this administration has placed these Warriors in. I admonish this administration and all those currently in public office whom we have entrusted with our security, well-being and the very lives and well-being of the best of us, our Warriors to start acting like you actually care or even understand the consequences of ludicrous decisions like this one. I then hold you responsible to actively seek to change this immoral policy to one that allows our Warriors the opportunity to do what they were trained to do; destroy our enemies and protect our citizenry.
To those who would suggest that COIN (counter insurgency) is complicated I say hog-wash. This has become the mantra of the one-world ideologues. This has become complicated because leadership has lost its way. It is not the responsibility of the leaders (servants) of this country to re-build a country that has not been destroyed by us nor does the leadership of this country have any intrinsic right to spill the blood of this countrys finest for this cause. Ill lay it out for you; bad guys entered this country, unannounced and unwelcome and killed Americans on American soil. Bad guys continue to harass and threaten to kill Americans here at home and abroad. Bad guys continue to train in foreign lands and continue to plan to carry out these plans against sovereign American citizens. They have no rights or guarantee of protection under the Constitution of the United States because they are not United States citizens. They are not protected by the Geneva Convention because they dont fight under any Nations Flag. We however, have the right and responsibility, with historical and Biblical precedent to export violence to crush these Bad guys, wherever they may live and in whatever lair they may hide relentlessly! If the civilian populations in those areas lack the intestinal fortitude to expel them from their midst or they quietly support them or they actively support them; they are not innocent and may well suffer ill consequences for their cowardice and their complicities.
For those of us who have served in uniform and for those of us who have family forced to serve under these immoral conditions the time to quietly observe and pray has ended. There is a new activist emerging; not like the cannabis induced flailing of the sixties and seventies but one with the discipline, training and tenacity of a Warrior. Those of us who have a history in this Warrior culture and a vested interest on the battlefield will be a lot more vocal from this point on. Those in this culture who do not yet know about this immoral ROE change will soon all know as well as the families of those who are imperiled by it. Those who have actively supported this policy of immorality or are not engaged enough to know of it; they will be re-introduced to your constituencies for their failings. Public service is precisely what it portends to be; service. If there are those among your number who have failed to remember that I can promise you we will make that known within our spheres of influence.
This letter is making its way through the halls of every national news agency as well as the local ones in Maine, as you read this. I have contacted your office by phone, e-mail and now letter to give you a chance to get out in front of it. Consider this a wake-up call.
John J. Bernard 1stSgt USMC ret
Roger, Sgt. Bernard! Thank you for your good words.
Yes, I have read it before but thanks for giving me the heads up.
McChrystal had these orders forced upon him by Barack Obama and the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and was ordered to say that he alone issued the orders.
I posted this on my Afghanistan Updates early this morning. It is utterly sickening.
RENEE MONTAGNE, host:
Next, we have a story that underlines the difficulty of fighting a war amid a civilian population. It’s the story of U.S. Marines who had Afghans in their gun sights, Afghans who looked like they might be planting a bomb. The Marines had to decide whether to pull the trigger. Their decision says a lot about the rules of war against insurgents in Afghanistan.
NPR Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman watched the story unfold during a recent visit to the country, and he joins us now to talk about it. Hello.
TOM BOWMAN: Hi, Renee.
MONTAGNE: Now the rules of engagement have changed lately for troops in Afghanistan.
BOWMAN: That’s right. General Stanley McChrystal, the overall commander there, tightened up these rules on when soldiers can fire. And he did this because there was - there were too many civilian casualties in Afghanistan. But this all illustrates the basic dilemma for U.S. troops. They want to kill insurgents who are trying to kill them, but their job is to make sure they only fire when they’re very sure of their targets.
MONTAGNE: So, Tom, tell us what it was that you saw?
BOWMAN: Well, Renee, we were in this combat outpost down in southern Afghanistan, in the Helmand River Valley, and we were inside this center, a command center, watching a video screen. They were watching live while these guys were digging a hole for a roadside bomb. And there were other indicators, too, besides digging the hole. There was a guy swimming across a canal with this wire, and the wires are used to detonate the bomb.
Unidentified Man #1: I have two guys on the west side of the cow buoys(ph) running wires across the canal to the west side, where a (unintelligible) an IED the other day. So, they’re watching them right now.
BOWMAN: There were a couple of guys keeping watch and stopping traffic. And the Marines were intercepting a radio call from these suspected insurgents while they were doing these other activities.
MONTAGNE: And on the radio, they were saying we’re planting a bomb?
BOWMAN: And on the radio they were talking about planting a bomb.
MONTAGNE: So from the Marines perspective, the Afghans really did appear to be insurgents. So what did they do?
BOWMAN: Well, they felt comfortable. They had all the indicators that these guys were insurgents planting a bomb. So they thought about using a machine gun to shoot these guys. There was another combat outpost not too far away. The problem was there was a compound of houses between where the Marines were with their machine gun and the guys planting the bomb.
So then they decided to bring in the helicopters and use the machines guns and the helicopters to shoot these guys. As the helicopters came in, these guys look up in the air and start walking away. One of the guys was carrying a yellow jug - and that’s become the icon of the roadside bomb. They mix fertilizer and diesel fuel in this, and that becomes a part of the bomb. And then we saw one of these guys throw this jug into a haystack.
Unidentified Man #2: And hiding the jug into the hay pile right now, and then are walking near the open field, so just wait until...
BOWMAN: And they were gone. It was all over. They could no longer shoot at them.
MONTAGNE: So why didn’t they shoot at them?
BOWMAN: Well, they thought that they were still too close to this compound of houses to allow these helicopters to use their machine guns to shoot, so they decided against it.
MONTAGNE: So, in being very, very careful about shooting at what they absolutely believed to be insurgents, they ended up, in effect, losing these guys. How did that make them feel?
BOWMAN: Well, they weren’t happy at all. And some of them stormed out of this command center. And we talked with one of them afterwards. This is Lieutenant James Wendy(ph).
Lieutenant JAMES WENDY (U.S. Marines): There’s no way that anyone other than the enemy would’ve been injured.
BOWMAN: So, why weren’t you allowed to shoot?
Lt. WENDY: Honestly, I don’t know. I’d like to say I wish we could play by the big boy rules, you know, but, you know, it’s just the way it is. And if I had known how frustrating it’d be and was able to better prepare myself for that mentally, I think that maybe I would’ve been better off.
MONTAGNE: What about the military leaders? Is it reaching the top? Are they hearing these complaints about these rules of engagement that are so restrictive?
BOWMAN: You know, they are hearing these complaints. And I had a few minutes this week with their overall commander, General McChrystal, and I told him the same story, Renee, I told you. And I asked him about the rules of engagement. Here’s what he had to say:
General STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL (U.S. Commander, Afghanistan): I’ve been at this a long time now, since 9/11, and there were a tremendous number of times when I’ve seen activities done, which, on the surface of what was seen, looks exactly one way, looks completely convincing. And then in the aftermath, what you saw was incomplete. In fact, what we find is civilian casualties who are unarmed civilians.
I think when we err on the side of maturity and caution, there is a cost. And I know that we’re asking an extraordinary amount from them to operate with such restraint and self-discipline, but I think it’s how we win the war.
BOWMAN: So, that being said, there’s still a widespread frustration among the troops, of feeling that their hands are tied in going after insurgents.
MONTAGNE: NPR’s Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman. Thanks very much.
BOWMAN: You’re welcome, Renee.
Making war is killing combatants and busting up strategic targets and support-affording targets and resources.
We don’t have that mission if Afghanistan and haven’t for a long time.
We have a puppet government that can’t stand up. We are there as a show-force policeman risking our soldiers’ lives.
I can’t tell you the level of rage this makes me feel! What happens when one of those animals they let go comes back and IED’s someone’s husband, brother, son or nephew!!! Will McChrystal be in the field to experience the same risks our guys do on a moment by moment daily basis. Where is his ‘ass in the game’ outside of sitting in a distant command post giving out these BS politically correct statements. Is he a General or a politician because he can’t be both! AAARRRRRGG!
See post 31 and prepare to get POd!
What you have here is an unholy trinity injecting their shared philosophy of spare the civilians at all cost even though those civilians are not US citizens and are in fact complicit in their own misfortune. The new ROE presented by McChrystal and under which operation Khanjar was mounted is nothing less than disgraceful, immoral and fatal for our Marines, Sailors and Soldiers on the ground.
Lest we forget the outcome:
We are pinned down. We are running low on ammo. We have no air. Weve lost today, Marine Maj. Kevin Williams, 37, said through his translator to his Afghan counterpart, responding to the latters repeated demands for helicopters.
RIP Major Williams, 9/09/2009
We will never forget those Marines or what caused their deaths. It is complete negligence to leave your men to die like that! Are those in top command more afraid of the press and the liberals then they are of losing their own men? They don't belong in leadership then. There's plenty of GOOD ones where they came from!
There's plenty of GOOD ones where they came from!
There is plenty of good ones but how long will they last with the PC Brass in DC persecuting them with show trials and criminal charges for legitimate combat decisions made in the midst of a firefight.
Two Names come to mind of GOOD USMC Leaders the PC Brass threw under the bus, backed the bus up and drove over them again! Lt. Col Jeffrey Chessani and Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich
I think when we err on the side of maturity and caution, there is a cost. And I know that were asking an extraordinary amount from them to operate with such restraint and self-discipline, but I think its how we win the war.
Just who is (((we))) General? And who's side are they on?
I see loyalty to and care for our enemies but none for our own troops.
You know, if I didn't know better I would be suspicious that someone is deliberately trying to get our men killed. But that would be unthinkable, wouldn't it?
I have said it before and I will say it again. McChrystal seems to me to be quite insane. He acts as though he is infallible and invincible, a meglomaniac. His thoughts before he went to Afghanistan and since, are that the protection of our OWN Troops is second to protecting the “sensitivities” of radical islamists trying daily, (and succeeding beyond their wildest dreams since the baton passed to McChrystal), to kill our soldiers in whatever manner possible.
He is a horrible commander, a traitor to the men and women under his command, and should be court martialled for his wanton sacrifice of our blood and treasure for his own glory. Horrible.
Well said MESTA!
Our Troops deserve Honorable Leaders who will have their backs, and not ones who cow tow to the enemies or the radical left.
The first thing I do every day after I am sufficiently awake and the baby is fed and happy, is check the all news I can find about our Troops in Afghanistan. While I have a very underlying personal reason for STARTING this, I was doing it long before I ever signed up on FR.
Since coming to FR, everything in Afghanistan has changed...for the worse, and it wasn’t so good to begin with.
We NEVER should have stopped bombing Tora Bora until it was flattened into rubble and there was not a single blade of grass left to be seen from amongst the pebbles.
Everything has been handled so badly, including Iraq which is now reverting, that everything we have sacrificed, some of us more than others, has been for nothing. The islamists will never be anything but barbarians, evil beyond comprehension, that to cede to them a “sensitivity” which legitimizes their actions and stated beliefs, defies common sense in a civilized world.
And with all the insanity that abounds in the world today, I see more and more so-called “civilized” people lining up on their side. I have tried to figure it out, and the only reason I can see, is that islam DOES whatever it wants to without having to ask itself any moral questions about good versus evil, right versus wrong, and most people see that as freedom from ethics or morals imposed by society. It JUSTIFIES evil and any manner of perversion.
Everyone touts the public punishment of homosexuality, but it is so rampant in islam, that technically, they do not even have a name for it. It simply exists. As does pedophilia. Murder for its own sake. Any excuse will do. Hatred of women. Slavery. Bondage.
These are the “sensitivities” McChystal is sacrificing our Troops for. THIS is what the world has chosen to rally behind. This is a world war and we are fighting it blind, deaf, dumb, and stupidly.
He actually said this? What kind of a general asks his men not to fight THE ENEMY? Does he really believe this or is he looking for another star? I thought one of the reasons we're fighting them *over there* is so we don't have to fight them HERE!?!? Oh, wait...that was pre-BO.
Fight to WIN or BRING THEM HOME!!! Just said a prayer for our military before I hit the post button.
What is so flippin' hard about putting your men first?!
Yes, he actually said this, and lots more. I am telling you he is a great danger to our troops and other NATO troops as well. There is something very creepy about McChrystal. The first time I ever saw him, I drew back reflexively. Couldn’t put my finger on why. NOW I KNOW why. He is crazy. Flat out.
One of the reasons I love ya Friend!:)
“McChrystal had these orders forced upon him by Barack Obama and the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and was ordered to say that he alone issued the orders”
THAT is simply NOT TRUE. These are McChrystal’s orders, submitted to, and approved by, obama and company, not the other way ‘round.
Ping to #49
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