Man dies after stunned with Taser

The Pulse Journal ^ | December 14, 2009 | Denise Callahan

[dblshot]

If so that would be as wrong as smacking someone with a night stick just because you felt like it. Most cops have a review process for any use of force including TASERing. I don’t think many cops see it as a job perk. Do not bow up when confronted by an officer. They have been attacked so many times they are ready for you. Each case is different and i do feel for the daughter in this case. But cops have daughters too.

[dayglored]

> I want a pair of these....

Yep... For some reason, the person (presumably a FReeper) who put up the CafePress Beeber site did not include the lovely and tasteful Beeber Stuner Thong that CafePress also offers. I can't imagine why... ;-)

[StolarStorm]

Yep, they may have felt they had no choice. But we shall see. I’m hoping that there is a video that will make it very clear what occurred.

[DoughtyOne]

It's a real eye-opener to enter this thread and read the naive comments concerning officer tactics when dealing with a citizen who cannot get himself under control, and physically resists their attempts to do it for him.

I generally think of people on the left being anti-police, but no, now it's folks who consider themselves to be on the right, that are against them too.

Just one question before I continue, are Conservatives Law and Order people?

Evidently, there's a segment of people here who disagree with my answer to that question.  I am a law and order person.  I believe we should abide by the laws of our community and nation.  I do not think we should give police officers a hard time.  I believe it's better to submit to arrest rather than harm a person who has taken on a tough job and is trying to execute that job in accordance with his/her mandate.

If a person is causing a public distrubance, the officers will try to talk them down.  If the person will not calm down and appears to be a potential threat to the public, the officers MUST remove him from the public setting.  If they walk away and something takes place like a murder, a wounding, a robbery or some other felony, the officers would have subjected their department to a serious litigous situation.  If it was one of our spouses, children or relatives that was this guy's victim, we would be furious with the officers who gave them a pass.

These officer stepped in at the request of the establishment owner/employees.  The person was causing a disturbance.  The officers were able to get him to go outside, but out there he dug in his heels and refused to calm down or comply with their directives.  At some point the officers found it necessary to take this person into custody.  They tried to do so peacefully, and he resisted.  One officer suffered a head injury.  It was deemed necessary to use non-lethal force to restrain this person.  The officers used their taser.

Tasers have become a part of the accepted policy procedures for many police departments across the nation.  As part of that decision and implementation, thousands of police officers have volunteered to be tased, so they can understand what the assailant feels like, when the device is used on them.  To make the audacious claim that the taser is a lethal device, is to state that thousands of police officers submitted themselves to a lethal tasing.  The logic that could cause someone to come to that conclusion is absurd.

Officers don't use tasers or lethal force without following guidelines set up in departmental policies.  Those that do are committing a crime themselves.  For that reason they must be able to justify what they did.  When confronting a perp, you go through a number of steps that eventually may lead to using non lethal or lethal force.  In this instance, non lethal force was deemed reasoned, and the perp was tased.  The officers had no reason to believe this tasing would wind up any different than the tasing of officers each had seen try it on themselves.

With six officers on scene, if that had been the case, would officers necessarily have to submit themselves to a physical wrestling match which could see one or more of them injured seriously?  No.  The officers could have still opted to use non lethal force.

People who haven't had to be involved in taking someone into custody, don't seem to realize that even with six guys taking a suspect down, officers can suffer injuries to legs, arms, hands, fingers, eyes, as well as skin breaking abrasions that could result in exposure to blood born transmissions of infection.  This not only makes the individual officer exposed to injury, but can expose smaller departments to situations where varying numbers of staff members can be out on disability, causing the department and community to be undeserved.

What happens if an eye injury is serious?  What happens if an officer's gun is taken?  What happens if a joint suffers a serious injury, preventing the officer from returning to work, ever?  What if a finger or arm is broken and the officer has to take off months to recover?  How does that benefit the community?

I see it mentioned that the officers should have called in backup.  And evidently it's not supposed to matter if there is a domestic abuse, a burglary, a robbery, or some other situation that could mean members of the community would be exposed to a life threatening situation, without officers being able to respond.  All this, because some dingo wanted to give officers grief for daring to challenge him when he was causing a public disturbance.  Well, sometimes it's not possible or preferable to call in other people.

There is one person who was at fault here.  The idiot who couldn't conduct himself in a reasonable manner, and had to be confronted the way he was, caused this whole situation.

Anyone trying to find an excuse to let him off the hook, is sadly misguided.

If more information comes to light, I'm open to changing my mind.  Until such a time, these officers have my full support for doing the thankless job they were hired to do.

[Eye of Unk]

All the more reason to develop taser proof clothing.

We have the technology to defeat an over zealous police state.

I will not partake in any argument that what if all criminals start wearing taser proof clothes, how come all criminals are not wearing body armor? Frankly I would rather face a gun than a taser that could potentially stop my heart, at least with a bullet I have other options, I can peacefully obey an officer but nowadays everyone is taser happy.

There are ways to defeat a taser from something as simple as having an umbrella to the exotic carbon fiber fabric weaves with voltage absorbing condensers.

[Scotsman will be Free]

Probably so. However, looks like they had no taser to deploy. If they had tased the guy, and he had died they would have caught $hit for that too.

[DoughtyOne]

I’m not happy the husband of a fellow employee wound up dead. I don’t think the officers are happy about it either.

For some unknown reason this man was causing the establishment problems.

For some unknown reason he couldn’t find itself within him to say something like, “Look officers, I was trying to “X”, and didn’t want to accept that I couldn’t. I’m sorry. I let things get out of hand. I promise to go home and not cause any more problems this evening. I’m usually not like this.”

Instead he actually tried to fight the officers.

I don’t care if your 100% in the clear, you’re not going to win by doing that.

Once you step over that line, all bets are off. He could have pushed one of these guys through a plate glass window. He could have gotten the upper hand and seriously injured them.

This was clearly a no win choice on his part. Even if he did best them on the spot, the next scene would have been incredibly bad for him.

The best of people can make poor choices. Most of those choices won’t turn out to cost them their life. In this instance, it did.

I actually am sorry for the loss of your fellow worker’s spouse and your friend. I’m also sorry the officers have to deal with the unintended outcome here.

[DoughtyOne]

Thank you twice.

[StolarStorm]

I'm sure the officers are indeed in some emotional turmoil over this. If he was some hardened criminal maybe they wouldn't be as upset... but he wasn't.

I would not be surprised if his actions and behavior were a result of a diabetes related situation. I've seen people go nutty when the blood sugar goes too low or too high. But I do understand that once he engaged in violence there wasn't much they could do.

However, I don't think I deserve a taser up my A** as another poster said for posting this. I posted this article simply because I knew the person involved. Not to slam police.

[thefactor]

Excuse me. "Just cuffed"?

Yeah, that looks great on paper until the suspect begins to punch and kick you. Do you actually think people just turn around and let you handcuff them?

[darkside321]

Probably so. However, looks like they had no taser to deploy. If they had tased the guy, and he had died they would have caught $hit for that too.

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well i don´t think that they would have caught $hit for tasering him even if he would have died (i don´t think that they had been “stressed” anyway). Finally it was justified to shoot him because he assaulted them with a deadly weapon. it was just an example how i would like to see Tasers in action.

[thefactor]

So you think cops should use tasers if someone pulls a gun on them? Good thinking. /s

[DH]

This article really gets me thinking.......I wonder how many people had a heart attack after stubbing their big toe on their front porch? Gotta do something about that too.

[darkside321]

So you think cops should use tasers if someone pulls a gun on them? Good thinking. /s

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like i have mentioned before i never said this.

[thefactor]

You said tasers should be used ONLY when the alternative would be the officer pulling their gun. That includes, but is not limited to, someone pulling a gun on a cop.

So please explain what I am missing.

[Responsibility2nd]

 

I think you might be surprised by the actions of the moderators. They know what is appropriate and what is not.

 

 

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Comment #50 Removed by Moderator

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I guess they do. And I guess I won as your offending post was deleted. And as I said.... I don't hit report abuse. If someone wants to violate FR's policy on name calling, then I deal with it myself.

 

 

[DoughtyOne]

That unfortunate comment was ill thought out. I am sorry someone said that to you. You didn’t deserve it.

You brought this situation to our attention, because the person in the article was your friend. I’m sure you’re looking for answers, and want to make sure your friend is defended to the extent he can be. I think that’s admirable.

Asking questions about how the officers conducted themselves is reasonable.

If I were you, I would be tempted to ask people at the location if they would mind telling you what they observed. You may be able to work around this though.

I would ask for a copy of the police report, and read it to see if you can find anything out of the ordinary, or contradictory. I believe you can also ask for a copy of any statements taken from witnesses.

I don’t know how much of it I’d share. It might answer some questions and put things to rest, or it might cause more pain. Of course if you find something leading you to think the officers acted outside proper policies, it would be important to convey that.

You have every right to be concerned here. While I’ve tried to explain what the officers face, and what their mindset would be, I cannot state emphatically that they did things right here. I can only respond to what I’ve read here, and I don’t see anything outrageous.

I expressed my remorse for your loss, because I am truly sorry for your loss. I don’t think anyone won here. It was a loss all the way around.

Have you ever been in a predicament where you were trying to defuse a situation, and the person you were trying to reason with, simply wouldn’t reciprocate? Some people are bull headed, and just won’t try to meet you halfway.

Whether someone is a police officer or not, it’s just not worth the negativity to stick with that mindset. People need to be reasonable, because there are times when it could cost you much more than you’re willing to pay.

I only mention this, because it can save people a lot of grief.

Take care.

[whatisthetruth]

I hope the family involved sues the cops and the city for all they can get, anybody that supports this type of blatant homicide by law enforcement authorities just because a man was resisting arrest is only encouraging more of the same.

Incredibly there are people on this thread who say he got what was coming to him. Many of today's cold-hearted cops probably feel the same way. Like I said resisting arrest should not be a prerequisite to getting tazed to death. And it seems to be happening more and more.

Cops associate their guns with death, unfortunately not so with tasers so they may be too quick to use them unnecessarily. Look for more and more murders at the hands of law enforcement from tasering until they are either sued into oblivion or ruled unconstitutional.

[darkside321]

You said tasers should be used ONLY when the alternative would be the officer pulling their gun. That includes, but is not limited to, someone pulling a gun on a cop.
So please explain what I am missing.

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what i was trying to say was that Tasers can do a lot of good if only the police would use it with caution. this does not mean that i want the police to pull a Taser when someone pulls a gun... this only means that many fatal shootings may could be prevented if the police would/could have used a Taser. so Tasers are not all bad. their are only bad if the police misuse it for “minjor threats” like it looks like some of the officers do it all the time. that´s why i posted this video. this would be a perfect example where they could have used a Taser. it looks like they didn´t had one so they finally had to shoot him (and they where right to do this at the end). but this could have been prevented. this was all i wanted to say.

[Beloved Levinite]

Had he been allowed to walk away he would still be alive. What was the crime? Does not specify. Even if it was a robbery that doesn’t justify murdering the guy. Maybe the guy had hungry kids at home. The police are too qucik to escalate rather than difuse situations, IMO. BTW, look up “Rod Class” and “Letter of Marque” and how it relates to a cops “badge.” You might have a different opinion of law enforcement and our gov’t in general once you educate yourself.