Skip to comments.Thinking the Legally "Unthinkable" in the KSM Trial
Posted on 12/15/2009 7:28:46 AM PST by circumbendibus
If Khalid Shaikh Mohammed is clever he will turn his trial into an Obama birth certificate circus. The New York Post has an excellent piece by attorney Michael Schwartz, pointing out the difficulty of predicting a jury's verdict in the pending Khalid Shaikh Mohammed trial in New York City. His article is entitled "Why the gov't could lose this case." But there is a complex, two-part possibility that Attorney Schwartz did not consider.
KSM has said he wants to put the US government on trial and will probably bring up the Bush administration and mention waterboarding as torture in the courtroom, playing to the international media. But why would he limit himself to attacks on the last administration? KS Mohammed could well bring up the subject of Barack Obama never producing his long form birth certificate and thus claim he is not qualified to be President of the United States, thus rendering invalid his appointment of Attorney General Holder. It would throw the court into an uproar and possibly cause a Constitutional crisis, exactly what KSM wants and the Obama administration doesn't want to see on television just before the 2010 or 2012 elections.
KSM doesn't even have to research the citizenship matter much. He could merely attain transcripts of the case attorney Orly Taitz won against the government in attempting to deploy a soldier overseas who claimed that Barack Obama wasn't a valid Commander-In-Chief. He could also use the public record of Philip Berg's testimony in his attempt to question President Obama's citizenship before the US Supreme Court.
Perhaps Khalid Shaikh Mohammed has worked out a private deal with the Obama administration to not bring this up, but he would obviously be more than willing break that deal and advance a media-based jihad where he could extend the trial for a number of months.
This brings us to the second part of this complex situation regarding a possible courtroom discussion of Obama's legal citizenship. Just as a prudent person never loans out anything they won't mind never getting back, what if Obama has figured for KSM's questioning the Obama Presidency's legal authority and would enjoy a Constitutional crisis that throws the country into an uproar? Obama is governing as if he has one TWO-YEAR term, not four. What if the destruction of Constitutional rule and capitalism is his aim, as many a website has made a case for? That would mean Obama would relish a Constitutional crisis and might even want to use it to declare martial law.
Don't assume that Obama wants what most people want in America. If that were true, he never would have flown a 747 trailed by a jet fighter over Manhattan as if it were another 9/11 or moved this trial to the New York federal courthouse. Why would you give the man who appointed a bunch of unaccountable, unconstitutional Czars and is involved in passing an unreadable healthcare bill in the middle of a Saturday night the benefit of the doubt?
Jack Kemp, not the politician of the same name, has been a frequent contributor to American Thinker and the T(im)Birdnow Blog. He has also been quoted in National Review Online's PhiBetaCons blog and has written for the Baltimore Jewish Times. SundialMan@aol.com
Wow! The KSM case could crack open the Barry BC case! Who could write a novel like this??
...KSM will get off and the Republicans will be too chickensh*t to use it to win the following election.
Good disclaimer, considering Jack Kemp, the politician, is DEAD.
Jack Kemp is the author of this? Wow, that is pretty amazing. For several reasons.
Here’s what would happen.
KSM: Your honor, request for dismissal due to Obama not being President, blah blah blah
Judge: Request denied.
End of story. Sad as it is.
He wasn’t read his Miranda rights - either he’s under our system - or not... Maybe he’ll walk before he has a chance to make his case.
They will play to the media and attack Bush.
When the Gitmo guys hit a civilian court the first thing they should do is ask about jurisdiction, does this court legally cover Afghanistan?
Yes. I had to read all the way to the end of the article to make sure this was not some sick attempt at humor.
Might be the reason they exist - to purge the evil from America using our own idiocy.
Food for thought.
Just because all the past cases have failed due to the plaintiffs not having standing, doesn’t mean KSM would not have standing. The way things are these upside-down days, I’d expect the court to agree that KSM does indeed have standing to question -18bam’s eligibility.
Don't BOTH parents have to be USA citizens??
What I gather is that parentage doesn't matter.
If so, is that how it works world=wide? I can't
believe that one becomes a citizen of the country
The legitimacy or lack thereof regarding this president has little to do with the fact that the previous president, the one that brought him to justice, both was legitimate and acted legitimately.
Secondly, the legitimacy of the current president does not reflect upon the legitimacy of the court that is trying him.
The point is that he could bring up the Birth Certificate all he wants and it would not matter one iota as it would be dismissed as irrelevant to his case. There would be no uproar as the court would remind the defense that BHO is not the one on trial in the case at hand.
Third, granting the impossible, were a Constitutional Crisis of this nature to be raised, BHO would have an extremely difficult time implementing martial law. He would be the one in violation of that same Constitution that members of the military have both sworn to uphold and and honor daily in their service. Instead, he would more likely end up with a coup on his hands and would certainly be well aware of that, making this entire scenario both unlikely and silly.
BHO might be a fool, but he’s not the sort of fool that would set the stage for his own ouster.
I highly doubt this scenario.
If it looked like Barry was trying to overthrow the constitution, I have no doubt that Congress would impeach him quickly and throw him out of office. Whatever can be said for the liberal leadership in Congress, a constitutional coup from the executive branch would jeopardize not only their jobs, but possibly their lives as well. Once stripped of his power, he would have no control of the military.
The beauty of our government structure, is that Congress will check a tyrant when the rubber hits the road. All it takes is a signature to strip the president of all his legitimacy and turn the military against him. And if the liberal members of Congress refuse to overthrow a tyrant, a popular revolution backed by supporting members of the legislature would be almost certain.
the govt. will have a judge that disallows any questioning on this as not germain.
The man has not been given due process under the law. Any attempt at a trial in our civilian court system should be dismissed immediately.
If not, then your own due process mean nothing either!
You make good points. However, logic and the Constitution mean nothing to the Obama-Reid-Pelosi putative government. They are treasonous bastards and deserve to be hanged beside KSM.
Except Obama and KSM are on the same team. One wouldn’t do anything to undermine the other.
Of course “torture” will be used as an excuse to forgive planning the deaths of 3000 people.
Yes, its not Jack Kemp the politician. Its Jack Kemp the former Bills quarterback.
Heres what would happen.
KSM: Your honor, request for dismissal due to Obama not being President, blah blah blah
Judge: Request denied.
End of story. Sad as it is.
Obama probably wouldn’t mind - would allow his people to spin it as: “see, those right-wing birthers share the same thinking with Mid-east terrorists...”
Not in most countries. In Germany for example, there are a couple of generations, at least, of people born in Germany, but not of German citizen parents, who are not German citizens. Many of them are Turks.
But according to the 14th amendment to the US Constitution, it does work that way, *for citizenship" in the US. However that isn't necessariily the same for Natural Born citizen status.
Just a non-lawyer guess...
To have standing to question the eligibility of a sitting president, KSM would have to bring a quo warranto claiming a particularized injury in fact directly attributed to Obama.
The only act affecting KSM that I can think of which can be directly attributable to Obama via his appointee Holder is Holder's decision to try KSM in civil court as a criminal rather than military court as an unlawful combatant.
KSM would have to claim this transfer to NYC for a civil trial was somehow an “injury in fact” particular to KSM.
KSM appears to be delighted to have the grand stage of trial before the world in NYC as well as a chance to get off on numerous technicalities not available to him in military court. So I view any quo warranto attempt by KSM to be improbable.
No matter what happens, this trial will eclipse the Scopes “Monkey” Trial in all manner of ways.
Remind Jack Kemp that it was NOT ONE FIGHTER trailing AIR FORCE ONE over Manhattan, but there were TWO FIGHTERS escourting AF-ONE during it’s terrifing ANTICS over Manhattan, one of which had the RED TAIL of the TUSHEEGEE AIRMEN from Alabama, the First Black Fighter Wing that OBOZO had just reactivated and was celebrating their 75th? Anniversary. The WH chose to hide that second Fighter, but THE NEW YORK POST documented it’s existence clearly in a Front Page Photo after that Terrifying Stunt!
I'd never argue otherwise.
I don't think, however, that they would be so stupid as to try implementing a plan that could so obviously backfire this badly on themselves. Logic and the Constitution mean nothing to Obama, Reid, and Pelosi but they most certainly mean EVERYTHING to the military officers they would rely upon to enforce their will in a martial law situation. A Constitutional Crisis that rises around an illegitimate president negates his Constitutional authority to command the military and makes him a domestic enemy of the Constitution. It's just a terrible idea to rig a reason for instituting martial law that undercuts your ability to command and, in all likelihood, will end with your ouster by force. I don't think Obama is quite that stupid.
If they wanted to implement martial law, they'd most certainly find a much better means by which to do so.
I question their desire for that, though. Martial law is a very difficult state of affairs to maintain over a long period of time, especially in a large country like the US that has an armed populace. It's simply much easier to boil a live frog in water which has its temperature slowly rising than it is to toss it in when it's rolling. You simply achieve a lot more by maintaining the appearances of Constitutionality and liberty while carrying out your agenda behind the scenes and through the media than you'll ever gain by pointing guns at folks and threatening them... the most successful socialist tyrants have known this for years.
These people want to turn us into the European Union, not the Soviet Union. At the moment, the former looks harmless when compared to the latter... but it is the former that ultimately pays off greater dividends when it comes to power for its ruling classes, at least in the long run.
There may be some merit in the argument.
From KSM’s viewpoint he wants to put OBAMA on trial and make OBAMA the enemy. At this point Bush means nothing to KSM. Bush is history in KSM’s mind.
Thus Obama may rue the day he brought KSM to NYC
That question is what is being addressed by Leo Denofrio. He insists that Obama can’t be a “natural born citizen” regardless of where he was born because he was born the citizen and subject of another country, even if dual with America. Any other position in the US doesn’t make a difference with this issue, except the one Obama wants to be, President. His theory is definitely plausible I think, but subject to Constitutional interpretation since it wasn’t very specific.
However some say that his birth here makes a difference because if he wasn’t born in America, he wouldn’t even be a citizen, which is true. His mother was not old enough to be eligible to transfer citizenship if born outside the US and his father wasn’t a US citizen. If both parents were citizens, it wouldn’t matter.
So you have one argument that can be interpreted legally (Denofrio) and you have one that’s a slam dunk. That’s why the birth certificate has become so important. Anyone knows that a scanned document is not EVIDENCE. I can’t go into a court room and present “evidence” by handing over a URL of a scanned document to the judge. It would be laughed out of the courtroom. But somehow we are supposed to accept a scanned document as proof to the guy who is holding our nuke codes. If he was born outside the US, there is no doubt that he is ineligible.
Everyone wants to make this about race, or having a funny name... but it’s not. It’s about his father. Like it or not, his father wasn’t a citizen and his mother was only 18. That is why it is so important for HIM. No other President in recent memory had this issue.
I personally think he was born in Canada. There wasn’t Medicaid at the time, his mother and grandparents lived in Seattle before moving to Hawaii and were quite aware of the Canadian healthcare system and how it is “free”. It would be the perfect place for a broke college student to send his 18 year old wife to give birth. Also, Obama Jr was just a few weeks old when she brought him to her friend’s house in Seattle. She interviewed that when Obama was Senator. So why was she in Seattle after giving birth to a NEWBORN Obama? I think she was on her way back home.
And as far the birth announcement in the paper... my parents had moved to Atlanta when I was born, but my grandmother placed a birth announcement for me in her local paper for all my mom’s friends to see. Birth announcement in the grandparents home town doesn’t mean much.
I hope I made sense in my post. Sorry I rambled.
Such an obviously guilty person getting off? C'mon, that could never happen...
I guess not, seeing as the better-known Jack Kemp is 1)dead and 2)not a kook.
But remember it was Odumba & the dems who tried to
starve the Honduras people unless they reinstated
I hope you’re joking, because the two Jack Kemps you mentioned are the SAME MAN.
That depends on what the "crisis" is.
It would have to be a crisis ginned up unrelated to the NBC issue. If a court declared Obama ineligible, his orders would not be followed. I don't think Obama has broken a sweat over the NBC issue yet and he appears to have a deeply layered defense which is batting 1000 so far. He was very vulnerable before inauguration, but was protected because he was viewed as too precious to fail or vet by the media and all members of congress.
Now as president, only one federal judge, Judge Carter, has even opined that Obama is vulnerable to a quo warranto. We don't know whether any other federal court or SCOTUS will agree and this is dragging on towards Obama's renomination without resolution. Even if subject to quo warranto, we can't be certain that Obama will be judged non-NBC by the current SCOTUS. They refused to cert the issue when D'Onofrio gave them a chance (though it is not clear what the refusal was based on).
Some folks seem to forget that the 1948 BNA, which Obama has invited us to apply to himself, requires a legitimate non-bigamous marriage to pass UK citizenship to BHO II and 1902 Kenya Marriage Act seems to preclude legitimacy for the Dunham-Obama marriage. Illegitimacy as an exclusion to creating dual citizenship was accepted and known at the time that Chester Arthur's legitimacy was challenged.
Danae recently discussed and quoted 19th century investigator Collins as follows:
"A lawyer and scholar by the name of George D. Collins Esq. wrote an article regarding citizenship during Arthurs term, that had the President seen it, would have concerned him. Are Persons born Within the United States Ipso Facto Citizens thereof? was published in the American Law Review in Sept. /Oct. 1884."
"'Birth, therefore, does not ipso facto confer citizenship, and it is essential in order that a person be a native or natural born citizen of the United States, that his father be at the time of the birth of such person a citizen thereof, or in the case he be illegitimate, that his mother be a citizen thereof at the time of such birth.' Collins"
Danae and others like D'Onofrio have focused on the part of Collins' quote regarding whether or not the father is a citizen, but in this passage Collins declares explicitly that if a baby is illegitimate, it can still be a natural born citizen if the mother is a citizen, as Obama's mom was.
On the "not born on US soil" issue, Obama has a COLB from HI which meets the federal rules of evidence as being "self-authenticating". This is an extremely high bar to refute, and at this point only a quo warranto hearing that would require Obama to produce "best evidence" would result in disclosure of the "vital records" underlying the COLB.
Following HI vital record disclosure a subsequent investigation of anything suspicious (whatever Obama has been hiding so desperately) would have to open up the possibility of a non-USA birth to threaten Obama. Then such evidence of a foreign birth would have to be authenticated for example by notoriously corrupt Kenyan authorities. If the vital records only show a home birth, but no smoking gun for a non-HI birth (evidence of foreign birth that meets federal rules of evidence), then ineligibility due to foreign birth will be a dead end. Hey, it is a long hard road, but well worth the effort!
AG Holder is not an issue.
Yes, this is an idiotic move to give these terrorists the publicity they seek while continuing to blame the Bush administration for everything, but it is not a guaranteed walk for KSM.
The law is blind. It is not stupid.
Jack Kemp needs a grammar checker. He means obtain not attain.
This is such a huge blunder it’s unimaginable.
A. weakened America...or some combination of the above.
B. strengthened islam
C. attacked Israel
Can you cite something -anything- of substance that hes done that doesnt fit A, B and/or C?
Bet you can't...
For many cases, that is the law; for example, Canada. If you're born on Canadian soil - whether or not your parents are even in the country legally - you are a Canadian citizen. Same with the US, after the passage of the 14th Amendment.
English Common Law is the same, going back 400+ years. The soil on which you were born usually grants citizenship.
Now, about KSM, I'm not at all worried about Kemp's flight of fancy about Obama's birth certificate! What will happen is that KSM will be found not guilty. The confessions will not be admissible because they were coerced before he had his full legal rights. All he has to do is have his lawyers challenge all findings/discovery before he received his legal civil rights, and there goes the Government's case. Good luck proving it as all his co-conspirators are dead.
KSM will most likely walk free of the trial, and we will become the absolute laughing stock of the world.
They have a common goal -destroy America- that doesn't mean they are on the same team or side.
A pack of dogs doesn't all attack from the same side.
Bit of a problem with that. KSM in NY is a new issue, and Jack Kemp the quarterback/congressman has been dead 6 months.
You summed up the Obama doctrine in a very succinct manner. I believe his foreign policy can be described with 6 simple words: Embolden Enemies, Abandon Allies, Weaken America.
A coup accomplishes his goal of overturning the US government and rendering us -at least temporarily- impotent against islam.
BHO might be a fool, but hes not the sort of fool that would set the stage for his own ouster.
0bama fancies himself a modern Lincoln. I dare say he would take a bullet if it meant islam could win.
He'd be a martyr, not just any martyr, but the martyr who took down The Great Satan!
They would be singing his praises in mosques for a millennium. Now THAT'S a legacy any follower of the pig-god would envy.
Besides, given what Larry Sinclair says, and the fact that he seems to have 'the slims' he may not have much time left anyway. Waste away in a meaningless and pedestrian death, or go out in a blaze of glory.
Which do you think the narcissist-in-chief would crave?