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Burial Cloth Found In Jerusalem Cave Casts Doubt On Authenticity of Turin Shroud [Really?]
Daily Mirror (UK) ^ | December 15th 2009

Posted on 12/15/2009 8:35:30 PM PST by Steelfish

Burial Cloth Found In Jerusalem Cave Casts Doubt On Authenticity of Turin Shroud

By MATTHEW KALMAN 16th December 2009

Archaeologists have discovered the first known burial shroud in Jerusalem from the time of Christ's crucifixion - and say it casts serious doubt on the claimed authenticity of the Turin Shroud.

Ancient shrouds from the period have been found before in the Holy Land, but never in Jerusalem. Researchers say the weave and design of the shroud discovered in a burial cave near Jerusalem's Old City are completely different to the Turin Shroud.

Discovery: The shrouded body of a man was found in this sealed chamber of a cave in the Hinnom Valley, overlooking the Old City of Jerusalem Radiocarbon tests and artefacts found in the cave prove almost beyond doubt that it was from the same time of Christ's death.

It was made with a simple two-way weave - not the twill weave used on the Turin Shroud, which textile experts say was introduced more than 1,000 years after Christ lived. And instead of being a single sheet like the famous item in Turin, the Jerusalem shroud is made up of several sections, with a separate piece for the head.

Professor Shimon Gibson, the archaeologist who discovered the tomb, said ancient writings and contemporary shrouds from other areas had suggested this design, and the Jerusalem shroud finally provided the physical evidence. The debate over the Turin Shroud will not go away. Last month a Vatican researcher said she had found the words 'Jesus Nazarene' on the shroud, proving it was the linen cloth which was wrapped around Christ's body.

(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; leprosy; letshavejerusalem; shroud
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To: presently no screen name

Nice point.


21 posted on 12/15/2009 9:21:30 PM PST by Tribune7
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To: Steelfish
A) IIRC ancient textile 'experts' (obviously different ones) have previously cited the unusual twill weave of the Turin Shroud as evidence for it being from the correct time. It will be interesting to see if pro-Shroud 'experts' come forward to dispute that point.

B) I'd thought there was one, and only one known archaeologically confirmed case of what we now call leprosy (Hansen's disease) from that time and area and it was a fairly recent find. That was a walled up burial that had never been opened to collect and rebury the bones after a year, which was the normal Jewish practice then. What the bible referred to as "leprosy" is much debated, but probably was several diseases with prominent skin involvement such as psoriasis. HD is known from biblical times in India, but not from the middle east excepting the one recent find. I wonder if this cloth was from that burial or whether they've found a second burial of HD there. HD was often a more severe disease in the middle ages than what is usually seen today and probably was also more severe in the 1st century AD. TB would have been a common disease then; it is more likely this poor soul was given a quick and permanent burial because his HD was both unfamiliar and horrific to them. I doubt this was a 'normal' burial for the time, not that Christ's was normal either...

22 posted on 12/15/2009 9:22:33 PM PST by JohnBovenmyer
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To: Arthur McGowan
Some people really, REALLY don’t want the Shroud to be genuine.

My 17-year-old's Spanish teacher told the class he didn't believe in God. I said that it was an intellectually weak position because it presumed an exhaustive knowledge of all reality (in other words a God-like knowledge) to be able to conclusively rule out the existence of God. A more realistic position would be to claim that he wasn't convinced of the existence of God, but that such a position was undesirable by atheists because they don't want to entertain even the possibility that God exists. That would put them into a position of having to answer to claims by a being superior to their own and that is intolerable. He asked where do they think everything came from. I said from the Big Bang, attributing to it the source of all being, as though to God, but in a safe, materialistic, non-judgmental form.
23 posted on 12/15/2009 9:28:38 PM PST by aruanan
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To: Candor7
People have no idea just how sophisticated weaving and dying were thousands of years ago

And it perhaps was so because it was a lifelong job for a weaver, and inventing a new style immediately gave him an economic advantage. A weaver doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to pull a thread over two, or three, other threads instead of one.

24 posted on 12/15/2009 9:31:56 PM PST by Greysard
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To: Steelfish

It’s like one guy buried in a polyester suit and another in silk. Doesn’t mean they didn’t die in the same timeframe.

But Jesus is risen. The linen was left behind for a reason.


25 posted on 12/15/2009 9:39:03 PM PST by ReneeLynn (Socialism is SO yesterday. Fascism, it*s the new black. Mmm Mmm Mmm.)
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To: Quix
[Barber's Prehistoric Textiles] provides all the necessary chapter, verse and photographs to counter the often-voiced argument amongst sceptics that the Shroud's herringbone weave could not date from the 1st century AD. As Barber points out (p.186ff), in the ancient salt mines at Hallstatt near Vienna the miners of the early 1st millennium BC used old rags to light their way. Scraps of these became preserved in crevices from which have come to light more than a hundred pieces of early 1st millennium BC cloth, many of these twill weave, and five specifically of herringbone.

By way of a further example, on p.196 Barber reproduces the remains of a black horsehair sash, found in a bog at Armoy, County Antrim, Northern Ireland, again dating from the early 1st millennium BC, and bearing the closest resemblance to the Shroud's weave. As Barber goes on to point out (p.190), the Hallstatt folk worked with flax (i.e. linen), as well as wool and other fibres. So although this is not to suggest that the Shroud actually derived from the Hallstatt culture, which was broadly Celtic (as in the case of ancient Egypt linens, the Hallstatt fabrics simply survived due to exceptional environmental conditions), it is quite clear that the Shroud's herringbone twill weave represents no obstacle to a first century AD date.

26 posted on 12/15/2009 9:41:28 PM PST by john in springfield (One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe such things.No ordinary man could be such a fool.)
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To: Quix
The cloth itself has been described (Raes 1976) as a three-to-one herringbone twill, a common weave in antiquity but generally used in silks of the first centuries A.D. rather than linen. The thread was hand-spun and hand-loomed; after ca. 1200, most European thread was spun on the wheel. Minute traces of cotton fibers were discovered, an indication that the Shroud was woven on a loom also used for weaving cotton. (The use of equipment for working both cotton and linen would have been permitted by the ancient Jewish ritual code whereas wool and linen would have been worked on different looms to avoid the prohibited "mixing of kinds.") The cotton was of the Asian Gossypum herbaceum, and some commentators have construed its presence as conclusive evidence of a Middle Eastern origin.
27 posted on 12/15/2009 9:43:46 PM PST by john in springfield (One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe such things.No ordinary man could be such a fool.)
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To: Alex Murphy

Sinful human nature dictates that IF God had left any actual artifacts that came in direct contact with Jesus, the creation would be worshiped instead of the Creator. Which, IMHO, is why we would never find any of it.


28 posted on 12/15/2009 9:47:12 PM PST by uptoolate (Governments don’t love...People do.)
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To: Steelfish
You know that Martha Stewart label should have been a tip off.
29 posted on 12/15/2009 10:03:12 PM PST by ditto h
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To: Swordmaker

Ping.


30 posted on 12/15/2009 10:12:54 PM PST by Cyropaedia ("Virtue cannot separate itself from reality without becoming a principal of evil...".)
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To: Steelfish

Since there have been studies done on the Turin shroud that reveal things like pollen which are from the Jerusalem area, I wonder if anyone has done the same studies on this new shroud?


31 posted on 12/15/2009 10:14:06 PM PST by Vince Ferrer
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To: uptoolate
“...IF God had left any actual artifacts...”

We don't have to have artifacts when there are places...but Christians never made the Jordan River into the Ganges and we never made Bethlehem into Mecca. God left us many puzzles from atomic nuclei to the Shroud to Capernaum to the Heavens.

32 posted on 12/15/2009 10:14:47 PM PST by Monterrosa-24
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To: Alamo-Girl; albee; AnalogReigns; AnAmericanMother; Angelas; AniGrrl; annalex; annyokie; ...
The claim that an unclean leper, buried in the hills above Jerusalem, with a motley collection of cloths, never gathered into the central ossuary of his ancestors, is somehow evidence of "normal Jewish" burial in Jerusalem, is contrary to Jewish tradition and customs... but here it is, anyway.

Obligatory Holiday anti-Shroud of Turin story PING!

If you want on or off the Shroud of Turin Ping List, Freepmail me.


33 posted on 12/15/2009 10:15:34 PM PST by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE isAAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: Jedidah
It doesn’t matter what Jesus was buried in. It matters that the burial cloth was used for only three days, then discarded. Let’s worship the Savior, not souvenirs.

The Catholic bashers have arrived. Thanks for that pithy comment and the charity in which it was delivered. I'm sure someone is as proud of you as you are of yourself.

34 posted on 12/15/2009 10:21:55 PM PST by grammarman (Pride goeth before the the fall.)
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To: Jedidah

Since the woman with an issue of blood was healed by touching the *fringe of Christ’s garment* it is not surprising that such “souvenirs” are venerated in traditional Christianity.

“25And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,

26And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,

27When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.

28For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.

29And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.

30And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?

31And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?

32And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.

33But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.

34And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague. (Mark 5:25-34)


35 posted on 12/15/2009 10:23:06 PM PST by MilicaBee
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To: xjcsa

BINGO =


36 posted on 12/15/2009 10:25:49 PM PST by maine-iac7 ("He has the right to criticize who has the heart to help" Lincoln)
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To: phredo53
If its true that twill was not used there until 1000 years later then there is a problem for the Turin cloth. Not much different than claiming we have the pants Colombus wore: blue jeans.

That claim is not true. One of many of the claims in this article that is simply not true... including the one that remnants of shrouds have not been found in burials inside Jerusalem. In fact, the weaving of the Shroud, done on a wall loom, with the hand spinning, the soapwort fullering, and hank bleaching technique, when used in combination... something that would not have been likely done deliberately... are all, according to numerous textile experts, uniquely first Century. The thee over one twill in Linen would have been a very expensive cloth that would have represented weeks of work of a skilled weaver. It would have been reserved for avery wealthy buyer, a person such as Joseph of Arimathea was described as having been.

A leper, with two communicable diseases, such as the body covered by this shroud, is probably not a candidate for purchasing a "fine Linen cloth" and his relative used what they could afford. In fact, as you know, as a weaver, the larger the cloth, the more expensive it will be.

What this burial DOES prove, however, is that they DID use a large sheet... and bound his wrists, his jaw, and his ankles, as is reported in Jewish custom and was postulated as the "bindings" or mistranslated "wrappings" in Jesus' burial.

37 posted on 12/15/2009 10:37:09 PM PST by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE isAAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: Jedidah
It doesn’t matter what Jesus was buried in. It matters that the burial cloth was used for only three days, then discarded. Let’s worship the Savior, not souvenirs.

I've been trying to get this point across for ages whenever an article like this is posted. It seems as though no one listens to this reasoning as it is easier to worship items like pieces of cloth or images showing up on toast instead of just having true faith and not needing to worship items (yes it is worship).
38 posted on 12/15/2009 10:38:56 PM PST by brent13a (You're a Great American! NO you're a Great American! NO NO NO YOU'RE a Great American! Nooo.....WTF?)
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To: grammarman
The Catholic bashers have arrived. Thanks for that pithy comment and the charity in which it was delivered. I'm sure someone is as proud of you as you are of yourself.

Wow. You assume that because someone states we shouldn't be doting on a piece of cloth, that may or may not have anything to do with the burial of the Son of God, that makes them "catholic bashers". Just wow.
39 posted on 12/15/2009 10:39:49 PM PST by brent13a (You're a Great American! NO you're a Great American! NO NO NO YOU'RE a Great American! Nooo.....WTF?)
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To: JohnBovenmyer
B) I'd thought there was one, and only one known archaeologically confirmed case of what we now call leprosy (Hansen's disease) from that time and area and it was a fairly recent find. That was a walled up burial that had never been opened to collect and rebury the bones after a year, which was the normal Jewish practice then.

This is the VERY SAME burial... it had the Shroud they are talking about. It was found in 2000. They have just dusted it off and are using it as "new"...

40 posted on 12/15/2009 10:40:26 PM PST by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE isAAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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