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Burial Cloth Found In Jerusalem Cave Casts Doubt On Authenticity of Turin Shroud [Really?]
Daily Mirror (UK) ^ | December 15th 2009

Posted on 12/15/2009 8:35:30 PM PST by Steelfish

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To: Steelfish; Tribune7; magritte; Quix
DISCOVERY: ....beyond doubt that it was from the same time of Christ's death..

"Same time" means nothing, IMO.

John 19:23,24
When the soldiers had crucified Jesus, they took his clothes and divided them into four shares, a share for each soldier. They also took his tunic, but the tunic was seamless, woven in one piece from the top down.

So they said to one another, "Let's not tear it, but cast lots for it to see whose it will be," in order that the passage of scripture might be fulfilled (that says): "They divided my garments among them, and for my vesture they cast lots." This is what the soldiers did.

No doubt his robe was 'unique' (for the time period) and costly. Not only the fabric itself but it was ONE PIECE and that one piece would be WIDE - it was a tunic. They may claim what a standard cloth for that day was but there was nothing standard about Jesus's robe. We read they wouldn't tear it and cast lots because of it's value and uniqueness. If it were 'standard' for the day, who would want it and tearing it would be of no consequence.

When I read about the separate piece of linen in the article, I remembered the Scripture because many years ago, a man versed in the tradition back then said - when you are in someone's house for dinner and you plan on COMING BACK, your take your dinner cloth, fold it and placed it aside. Same as He did in the tomb. To me, that's the Good News!

SIDENOTE: As much as I would love for unbelievers to have proof - so, they too, will believe. The Word says otherwise. "Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ". That's the way I came to The Lord - through His Word and didn't need proof of anything. Proof only lasts until something else comes along to put doubt on that proof. I believe searching for proof is a smoke screen and harmful for unbelievers - Faith is the key and then they will be open for the supernatural truth.
101 posted on 12/16/2009 11:39:29 AM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name

Good points.

Thanks


102 posted on 12/16/2009 12:13:13 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Swordmaker

Hmmm. All interesting.


103 posted on 12/16/2009 12:20:26 PM PST by john in springfield (One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe such things.No ordinary man could be such a fool.)
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To: Quix

Basically, their new find proves nothing. What’s ‘standard’ doesn’t apply when it comes to what was available to Jesus at the time. And Scripture shows that.


104 posted on 12/16/2009 12:21:54 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name

Good pt.


105 posted on 12/16/2009 12:59:01 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Mamzelle
You'd have to talk to someone who knows how to spin

I doubt that this is high on James Carville's priority list. /hijack>

Cheers!

106 posted on 12/16/2009 3:17:44 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: rdl6989; Fractal Trader; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 1ofmanyfree; 21twelve; 24Karet; ...

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Thanks rdl6989 and Fractal Trader.

This is going to be in the Digest under "Oh So Mysteriouso", and ordinarily I don't even add shroud threads (heh, sorry) to the catalog, but this looks much more interesting than the usual stuff.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
 

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107 posted on 12/16/2009 4:52:03 PM PST by SunkenCiv (My Sunday Feeling is that Nothing is easy. Goes for the rest of the week too.)
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To: SunkenCiv
The whole thing is shrouded in mystery.
108 posted on 12/16/2009 5:39:12 PM PST by colorado tanker (What's it all about, Barrrrry? Is it just for the power, you live?)
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To: Quix
re: Not ALL ancient looms were narrow.)))

Well, no. Of course not, but wide warps are very rare and noteworthy. Weaving wide warps is expensive and requires more skill and time than narrow ones.

Linen is not stretchy. It poses a lot of problems in weaving; warp threads break easily. A wide loom takes up a lot more space, is harder to put a shuttle through.

109 posted on 12/16/2009 6:07:50 PM PST by Mamzelle (Who is Kenneth Gladney? (Don't forget to bring your cameras))
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To: Quix

“2. It is highly likely that a special weave would have ended up as Christ’s cloth.”

Isn’t it true that a well-to-do man provided the tomb?

Why, then, would it be strange if the cloth were up-market?


110 posted on 12/16/2009 7:46:54 PM PST by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: Quix
Shoot. It’s quite conceivable that a wealthy person—as was involved in Christ’s burial—MIGH WELL HAVE had a single very rare, for that era, twill fabric from any number of other regions of the world

IF the Celts were using this pattern centuries earlier, then Joseph of Arimathea could have easily come by it during his trips to his Glastonbury tin mines in Britain...and could afford it.

111 posted on 12/16/2009 8:01:30 PM PST by ApplegateRanch (Islam: a Satanically Transmitted Disease, spread by unprotected intimate contact with the Koranus.)
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To: Mamzelle

Well, no. Of course not, but wide warps are very rare and noteworthy. Weaving wide warps is expensive and requires more skill and time than narrow ones.

Linen is not stretchy. It poses a lot of problems in weaving; warp threads break easily. A wide loom takes up a lot more space, is harder to put a shuttle through.

#######################

1. Have you seen the huge old Chinese brocade looms—2 person operated . . . about as long as a semi? They toured the USA 20-30 years ago. Certainly the Chinese had a variety of wider looms. I assume other cultures did, too.

2. Wide looms would have indicated a larger investment in the enterprise in terms of space and yarn. The loom itself is not that much more complicated being wider.

3. What does “very rare” mean in what context? 1 out of 5; 1 out of 10? 1 out of 100? within 10 square blocks? within 100 square blocks? Within a city? Within 3 cities?

4. I have 300-400 warp thicker cotton threads on my loom currently . . . each thread a ball of yarn maybe 1,000 or so yards long. Weaving width is 25”. I don’t think a warp 50” wide would be much more trouble if my loom happened to be that wide—particularly with a boat shuttle.

5. Yeah, linen takes some special care. Tightly spun fine thread linen spun very well may not be as likely to break as some not spun so well. And, dampening the linen helps.

6. Looking at ancient Chinese weavings as well as some from other culture . . . I just do not doubt that such a fabric could have been available to the richer folks in the Middle East 2,000 years ago.

7. For all we know, Joseph of Aramathea may have had such a weaver in his own employ or household.


112 posted on 12/16/2009 8:11:59 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: dsc

Certainly my feeling & perspective concurs.


113 posted on 12/16/2009 8:12:47 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: ApplegateRanch

Ahhhhh.

LOL.


114 posted on 12/16/2009 8:13:46 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix
If you want to know weaving in the time of Christ, you should check out Egyptian art from well before A.D.--you'll see that the common way to weave was to dig a hole, sit on the edge of that hole with the loom's bottom braced at one's feat. The common way to weave is not that different from the frame looms of the modern-era Navajo, with looms standing like a door before the weaver.

Silkworm cultivations and jacquard looms in Israel at the time of Christ? Lol. Why not spinning wheels, too?

Rare means what has survived with mummies, which give a pretty good picture of textile cultivation and production in Israel at Christ's time.

They need to take a sample from the textile that is not part of a repair.

115 posted on 12/16/2009 8:30:37 PM PST by Mamzelle (Who is Kenneth Gladney? (Don't forget to bring your cameras))
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To: presently no screen name

Sudarium of Oviedo


116 posted on 12/16/2009 8:48:38 PM PST by Betis70 (Never Forget)
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To: Mamzelle

Seems to me we should be looking for the

UNCOMMON WAYS TO WEAVE of such eras.


117 posted on 12/16/2009 9:16:41 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Mamzelle

I’ve grown up around the Dineh (Navajos) and their weaving.

BTW,


118 posted on 12/16/2009 9:23:38 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Jedidah

Yah, that’s about the size of it.


119 posted on 12/16/2009 9:25:21 PM PST by Poe White Trash (Wake up!)
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To: Quix
I’ve grown up around the Navajo-style weaving.)))

Well, then, you are well aware why the large ones are so very pricey, and rare.

Why look for the uncommon way to weave, when the Bible is rich in textile lore?

It's possible that a large loom in Christ's time could have woven a textile like the Shroud. It's just unlikely, because a textile of that size and quality, that lasted 2000 years, would attract just as much attention as the image found upon it.

120 posted on 12/16/2009 9:30:50 PM PST by Mamzelle (Who is Kenneth Gladney? (Don't forget to bring your cameras))
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To: Mamzelle

Because . . . given the Robe etc.

I think it’s highly likely that Christ’s burial shroud was exceptional, too.


121 posted on 12/16/2009 10:50:36 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix

I worship and serve my Risen Lord Jesus Christ. Nothing more, nothing less.


122 posted on 12/16/2009 11:31:00 PM PST by Diver Dave (Merry CHRISTmas)
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To: Diver Dave

Good.

Many others are different on such scores whether they are aware of it or admit it, or not.


123 posted on 12/16/2009 11:34:42 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix
Can we say FOR CERTAIN how such a head cloth might have been used vis a vis the long shroud type cloth?

Not for certain... but the Jewish burial custom was to place a cloth binding under the jaw, behind the ears and up, tied over the crown of the head, to keep the mouth closed in death. The Sudarium(sweat cloth) of Oviedo (named for the Cathedral it's kept in since the sixth Century AD on Oviedo Spain), shows signs of having first covered the head of a man who was crucified, then used to cover his face while being carried in a face down position with a hand over his face (bloody hand print), and then being rolled diagonally like a kerchief into a rope like form that would be long enough to tie around a head to do service in just such a manner "about the head" as described in the Gospel.

124 posted on 12/17/2009 3:07:31 AM PST by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE isAAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: Interesting Times
Thanks for the excellent fact-based commentary. It’s striking to see how superior your understanding of this topic is to that of the “professional journalist” who cobbled together this article.

Thank you... it comes from thirty years if study and following the science... and not accepting things at face value. This for example is based on work done TEN YEARS AGO... and is merely being trotted out again as if it is all new.

The claims about Jesus death certificate being found on the Shroud are also not new... and are more akin to seeing bunny rabbits in the clouds than anything real on the Shroud. The Shroud has been photographed so many times for anything to suddenly be found at this late date is patently absurd... and in fact it is a rehash of claims from 1978!

125 posted on 12/17/2009 3:13:46 AM PST by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE isAAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: Quix
Not ALL ancient looms were narrow.

Wall looms could be pretty large. Large enough to make sail cloth...

The Shroud was made on a Wall Loom... and it was hank bleached. Soapwort fullered. Hand spun. All things done in the 1st Century and most likely not done in the medieval times when more modern weaving would have been the norm.

In addition there are many extant examples of three over one twill weavings from the period. I don't know where this idea that complex weaving only came about in the medieval period. The Egyptians were fine weavers as were the East Indians, the Chinese, and indeed the people of Palestine area.

There are other fine examples of the weavers art from the 1st Century that are extremely rare... such as examples of the rarest cloth in the world: byssus, which is native to the Eastern Mediterranean that still exist, that have been found in Egypt and Roman burials.

126 posted on 12/17/2009 3:23:20 AM PST by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE isAAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: Swordmaker

Thanks.

That would still be consistent with the shroud and it’s image, it seems to me.


127 posted on 12/17/2009 7:29:18 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Swordmaker

Thanks much.

How could they tell it was done on a wall loom?

I would think it unlikely that twill was done on a wall loom.


128 posted on 12/17/2009 7:31:47 AM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Jedidah
It doesn’t matter what Jesus was buried in. It matters that the burial cloth was used for only three days, then discarded.

Let’s worship the Savior, not souvenirs.

Let me put a finer point on that for all:

Worship the creator not His creation.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
129 posted on 12/17/2009 8:00:49 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: aruanan; Izzy_Box

Can’t wait to share that with my daughter (pinged above) who greatly enjoys *conversations* with atheists... It tickles her to no end when she can point out flaws in their arguments. She’s going to LOVE using this line of debate, I just KNOW it! Thanks! :)


130 posted on 12/17/2009 8:59:58 AM PST by LibertyRocks ( http://LibertyRocks.wordpress.com ~ ANTI-OBAMA STUFF : http://cafepress.com/NO_ObamaBiden08)
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To: Quix

>>As a weaver . . . <<

This has nothing to do with anything and is very OT, but seriously, you do amaze me!

I’m lucky I can crochet!


131 posted on 12/17/2009 9:10:50 AM PST by netmilsmom (I am Ilk)
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To: brent13a
it is easier to worship items like pieces of cloth or images showing up on toast instead of just having true faith and not needing to worship items

I don't begrudge people whatever crutch they need to believe in God. It is the effort and the desire that God cares about, and while yes it is true that a man who needs no proof of God's existence or Jesus' life and resurrection in order to truly believe has a stronger faith than someone who looks for the physical evidence that Jesus may have left behind. But when it comes down to it I think as long as people strive to be good, to follow Christ's path of humility, love, and devotion to God, then how someone comes to their faith is less important than how they live their faith.

132 posted on 12/17/2009 10:51:04 AM PST by coconutt2000 (NO MORE PEACE FOR OIL!!! DOWN WITH TYRANTS, TERRORISTS, AND TIMIDCRATS!!!! (3-T's For World Peace))
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To: netmilsmom

not totally off topic at all.

I have some EXPERIENCE with twill etc. and wide vs narrow looms . . . and weaving linen . . . . which have been important aspects of this topic.

The Lord has blessed [depending on viewpoint] me with a wide variety of interests and skills. I just wish I’d realized that with some level of conficence about 25 years earlier than I did.

Crochet . . . ah . . . during my PhD program, I crocheted a larger than kingsize rainbow colored bedspread out of RUG CRAFTERS RUG YARN. It was HEAVY—out of granny squares.


133 posted on 12/17/2009 12:59:29 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix

>>Crochet . . . ah . . . during my PhD program, I crocheted a larger than kingsize rainbow colored bedspread out of RUG CRAFTERS RUG YARN. It was HEAVY—out of granny squares.<<

I’m surely not as talented, but I do think I made that same pattern for my Best Friend’s first son when he was born.

Did each square look like it was ice cream cone shaped with six changes of yarn?


134 posted on 12/17/2009 1:32:00 PM PST by netmilsmom (I am Ilk)
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To: netmilsmom

You took more trouble and were more talented than I.

I crocheted 3 rows of solid one color the length . . . or was it cross-ways . . . I forget . . . 3 or so rows of one color and then changed color.


135 posted on 12/17/2009 2:04:27 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix

WOW!!!!


136 posted on 12/17/2009 2:07:12 PM PST by netmilsmom (I am Ilk)
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To: RipSawyer

So? What does “about” mean?

You can’t decide questions like that without the original language, and a lot of cultural information.

This is why there are Scripture scholars.


137 posted on 12/19/2009 1:38:26 AM PST by Arthur McGowan (In Edward Kennedy's America, federal funding of brothels is a right, not a privilege.)
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To: brent13a

When you tell people not to worship “souvenirs,” you are asserting that they worship “souvenirs.”

That is a slander. Despite what you’ve learned from your Jack Chick Comics, Catholics worship God, and no one and nothing else.

Get used to it.


138 posted on 12/19/2009 1:45:17 AM PST by Arthur McGowan (In Edward Kennedy's America, federal funding of brothels is a right, not a privilege.)
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To: xjcsa; donna
"...why would finding a different style of shroud “cast doubt” on the one in Turin?"

As Freeper 'donna' accurately implied in post #4, this is all designed "just in time for Christmas" to take a cheap shot at Christians.

Whether you believe the Shroud of Turin is what it is purported to be or not, it still holds a certain religious reverence for some Christians.

And every Christmas season you'll find the media and other leftist Christian bashers putting out the seasonal attacks.

To them and to you all, I say - MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

139 posted on 12/19/2009 1:53:31 AM PST by airborne (HAPPY BIRTHDAY JESUS !!!!!!!!!)
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To: Jedidah
I didn’t say a thing about Catholics. I didn’t even think about Catholics. Nobody was “bashed” until some thin skins got irritated by their imaginations.

I would say that referring to a relic venerated by Catholics as a 'souvenir' gives me a pretty good indication of the 'mindset' of the commenter. Isn't a souvenir akin to some cheesy piece of schlock manufactured to give the tourist a cheap memory of a place or experience?

Say what you will, but I think if you examine your conscience you will find a deep seated dislike for the Church (Universal).

140 posted on 01/05/2010 6:42:29 AM PST by grammarman (We could all get along if only we would all agree with you.)
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To: grammarman

grammarman, lighten up!

I used an alliteration. Look it up if you need to.

The word “souvenir” has French origins and means “to remember.”

I’m not really into cheap do-dads, so they weren’t on my mind when I posted. Our Lord rebuked the Pharisees for asking for a physical sign of his divinity (Matt. 16:1-4). When I read of relics, including the shroud, I recall His words.

We are to live by faith, which means being sure of what we believe without needing physical artifacts to “remember” — i.e. “souvenirs.” (Hebrews 10:35- 11:3 ff).

Assuming you’re a Christian, we’re on the same side, so take a deep breath, calm down, and have a happy new year.


141 posted on 01/05/2010 9:10:30 AM PST by Jedidah
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