Skip to comments.Donít Believe the Hype About the Plug-In Car
Posted on 12/17/2009 5:09:38 AM PST by FlyVet
Hybrid gasoline-electric and all-electric cars will continue to cost more than vehicles with a conventional internal combustion engine for the foreseeable future, putting the new technology beyond the reach of many car buyers.
Sales of hybrid and all-electric cars therefore may be limited to affluent buyers who can afford to make an environmental statement and the vast majority of vehicles will continue to be powered by gasoline or diesel engines. While promising, the new lithium-ion battery technology wont significantly reduce pollution or dependence on foreign oil by 2030.
(Excerpt) Read more at minyanville.com ...
Projections of future battery pack costs are uncertain, as they depend on the rate of improvement in battery technology and manufacturing techniques, potential breakthroughs in new technology, possible relaxation of battery protection parameters as experience is gained, and the level of production.
Based on the current state of the technology, the cost of a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle , known as a PHEV in the trade, will be about $18,000 higher than a conventional vehicle, including a $14,000 battery pack. That means it will take years, and perhaps longer than the vehicles useful life, to recover the upfront costs of plug-in hybrid vehicles despite the lower per-mile cost of operation.
It will take about eight hours to recharge a hybrid cars battery using 110-volt current commonly used in homes. In a recent report, the Electric Power Institute, an independent nonprofit organization based in Palo Alto, California, says the US now has enough capacity to charge 1 million electric vehicles at night. This suggests you shouldnt get charged up about the electric car -- at least not yet.
Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles will produce less carbon dioxide than similar cars powered by conventional internal combustion engines, but the dollar and environmental cost of generating electricity is often overlooked. Coal fires many generating plants, a source of constant ire for environmental groups such as the Sierra Club, a powerful lobbying group. The cost of reducing or capturing carbon dioxide emissions must be factored into the overall cost of battery-powered electric vehicles.
Caution is needed to prevent the promise of electric vehicles from becoming another over-hyped alternative like corn-based ethanol. Theres just one problem with that bright idea: It takes 29% more fossil energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than the ethanol releases when burned as fuel, making the disparity between energy input and output the triumph of politics over logic.
Theres always the hope that a genius at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology or another top school will invent the gizmo that changes everything. But this isnt Hollywood and technological advances are likely to be incremental. That means no immediate miracles and oil will continue to be a vital part of the economy for the foreseeable future.
The inconvenient truth about electric cars is that they need electricity. The car itself may not pollute, but the coal burning electricity plant sure will.
That other gizmo is a hybrid car that runs on natural gas instead of gasoline.
Plug in your car to your nat gas pipe at your house every night and let the car compress the gas into its tank while also running the engine to charge the battery up.
As always, it’s all about thermodynamics. And most people don’t have a clue.
But.. but... but...
The Chevy Volt is going to get 230 MPG!
I saw it on TV!
considering virtually every single attempt to build new generating plants is blocked by every communist organization as well as every Democrat. There will be No electricity to plug into.
typical Monkey *%cking a Jug, doesn’t know why he’s doing it, but it sure feels good.
I think there may be a problem with that.
Another thing I can't figure out. They pitch a hissy fit whenever a power company wants a new high-tension line, because it's an eyesore. But it's okay to obliterate the pristine countryside with big, ugly, noisy, bird-killing windmills.
The best vehicle to have is one that will run on quite literally moonshine or ethanol. Its legal to make your own and not difficult to do, having the right type of engine is the requirement and living in a rural area where you have available grasses to use helps.
Well, they gotta start somewhere and this technology is very promising. Ignore the naysayers, I say.
If it takes 12 kwhs for one recharge of the vehicle, we're looking adding about $55 to $60 to your electric bill each month.
Does this sound right?
Nonsense. Thermodynamics was invented by the oil companies and Republicans to keep us from implementing a true socialist utopia.
I would put a /sarc tag, but you know . . . What really kills me, sickens me at heart, is that there ARE people out there who believe what I just put up there.
I have a vision now of all the hillbillies in Appalachia becoming wealthy entrepreneurs with the revenue earned from their moonshine stills.
Don’t listen to the TV. Your dog knows better.
Then of course people will get those nice, sky-high electric bills as a result. But as for not polluting, I have to take somewhat of an issue with that. The process of making a large battery, especially on a mass production scale, is very nasty for the planet. You have to mine and mix up very toxic chemicals to make batteries work. It is even more fun when you have to dispose of the battery.
Couple this with the fact that every battery loses the ability to hold a charge over time. A car that gets 100 miles of range on one charge when it is new might only get 50 or 10 miles on a single charge in a few years.
Yep, total cost of ownership on one of these is very high - and is never detailed out by the media for the public to see. Additionally, those few who actually pay taxes are picking up a significant amount of the cost of this car. Examples; there's a $7,500 tax credit provided and there's no income criteria associated with this credit. Secondly, and this is an issue with all hybrids and electric autos at this time, these autos are not paying their fair share of road/use taxes. This is a problem that will have to be addressed eventually, probably by taxing autos by their miles driven would be my guess.
"Caution is needed to prevent the promise of electric vehicles from becoming another over-hyped alternative like corn-based ethanol. Theres just one problem with that bright idea: It takes 29% more fossil energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than the ethanol releases when burned as fuel, making the disparity between energy input and output the triumph of politics over logic."
I did some minimal research into this last year and it still may be legal to make as much as 10,000 gallons of ethanol per year for your private use tax free.
My first project would be to run some in my high compression motorcycle engine, that one of the engine requirements being high compression, fuel injected helps too.
The engine will burn more in quantity but if you can make it really cheap who cares? And btw moonshiners did indeed mix the ‘shine into their fuels, thats how NASCAR started.
I can’t even buy a regular new car...always have to buy used...and keep them for 10 years...
The problem is that some this crap works in Europe and the left(who think that Europe is so much smarter than we are)think it will work here. What the retards forget is how much bigger this country is vs Europe. An example would be TN from Bristol to Memphis is 500 miles, while London is only 200 miles from Paris and around 600 miles from Berlin.
You have totally ignored a HUGE portion of the cost of auto ownership. Your obscenely costly HYBRID is going to cost thousands of EXTRA dollars annually for INSURANCE. If you live in a state like Massachusetts, there will be an annual bill called the EXCISE TAX, levied and paid LOCALLY for the privileage of auto ownership.
The extra gasoline costs for my beloved old station wagon will be a mere drop in the cash bucket you’ll be spending.
When I was talking about electric cars with my 5 yr old, I mentioned that we’d just park them at night and the electricity fairy would come by and touch it with her wand to recharge it for the next day.
She didn’t buy it. But a lot of “greenies” believe a fairy tale that’s very similar.
“What are these laws [of physics]? We’re in power now, we can change the laws.”
We are now in what I think is the automobile death spiral. Governments (both state and Federal) derive enormous amounts of tax monies from the sale of gasoline. As these sources of tax revenues dry up, they will be forced to find new ways to offset this deficiency. I think they will increase the taxes on the purchase of new automobiles, licensing, and there will probably even be a mileage tax. These actions will further drive up the cost of owning and operating an automobile, thus fewer will be sold and operated. Plus, throw in hybrids and the supposed electric cars, and the tax revenues will decline even farther. The death spiral will continue with each new round of increased taxation and lower demand for cars. After all, one half of all voters work for government (I consider the public school system as government employees) and they are not going to do away with their own jobs. We can expect higher taxes and increased expense for automobile ownership until only politicians and their benefactors will be able to afford an automobile.
Is that a gallon of electrons?
It’s worse than the gallon to gallon comparison:
1.29 gallons of gasoline containing
148,350 BTUs of energy
to produce 1 gallon of ethanol containing
84,000 BTUs of energy.
Of course all the car, battery, and infrastructure credits will have to be paid for somehow. In the end, Obama's mathmaticians & Al Gore will show us how it's 100 times less costly to drive "green technology."
I’m holding out for my flying car.
This could though be optional for us here in my country. We have abundance of electricity, but need to import all gasoline.
One of THE stupidest platitudes,
the one that makes me the angriest,
is the phrase “green jobs”.
The greenies want their green cars, but no new power plants, no new high tension lines to carry the added electricity. We've already suffered brownouts in CA and the northeast without the added load. They want something for nothing, as usual.
Me: You smoke pot don't you!
Greenie Weinie: Blank stare
Oh, but we’re going to power them off of Windmills and Unicorn Poop. (/sarc)
I’m getting a Shetland Pony and a surrey with the fringe on top.
Why do you say it’s about thermodynamics? The efficiency of the engine is one factor. Others are fuel cost, ease of handling and storing the fuel, cost of the engine and drivetrain, and emissions.
No it is not.
Minimal sounds right.
Yes, it is legal. There are home units to distill your own ethanol for vehicular use, with a small fuel producer permit.
It’s illegal to sell non-taxpaid grain alcohol.
I stand corrected. It is illegal to distill alcohol for human consumption.
No, it’s not illegal to do that, either. It’s illegal to sell it without paying taxes and possessing the proper permits.
In the summer, I leave no rechargeable or battery stuff in the garage; not even a cordless phone.
Understood. I just meant the actual driving of the car.
Battery production and disposal is a huge problem.
For us, that would be a 30% increase in our electric bill. My gasoline bill for my truck is less than $100 per month and I don’t have to worry about $14,000 worth of batteries.
During the warm months here in Texas, it would also stress the grid.
Who in there right mind would put a batch of double run "shine" into a gas tank?