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Junk Science Exposed In Evolutionary Theory
OrthodoxNet.com ^ | 12/16/2009 | Babu G. Ranganathan

Posted on 12/17/2009 3:15:42 PM PST by ezfindit

Millions of high school and college biology textbooks teach that research scientist Stanley Miller, in the 1950’s, showed how life could have arisen by chance. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Miller, in his famous experiment in 1953, showed that individual amino acids (the building blocks of life) could come into existence by chance. But, it’s not enough just to have amino acids. The various amino acids that make-up life must link together in a precise sequence, just like the letters in a sentence, to form functioning protein molecules. If they’re not in the right sequence the protein molecules won’t work. It has never been shown that various amino acids can bind together into a sequence by chance to form protein molecules. Even the simplest cell is made up of many millions of various protein molecules.

(Excerpt) Read more at orthodoxytoday.org ...


TOPICS: Editorial; News/Current Events; Philosophy; Russia
KEYWORDS: churchofdarwin; darwinism; darwinliedpeopledied; evilution; evoisnotscience; evolution; excuseforatheism; intelligentdesign; junkscience; manmonkeymyth; secularmythology
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More logical arguments against the myth of Darwinism (claim that chaos and random actions can create super-sophisticated structures and life).
1 posted on 12/17/2009 3:15:43 PM PST by ezfindit
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To: ezfindit

Simple question:

Why would a fish that is adapting to a water environment grow legs and walk out on land?

Natural Selection, by definition, would select the legs out of the process because there would be no survival advantage in a water environment.


2 posted on 12/17/2009 3:21:32 PM PST by schaef21
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To: ezfindit
If a biological change occurs that helps a species to survive then that species, obviously, will survive (i.e. be “selected”).

Nit Pick: It will only tend to survive more than it otherwise would have. There is no guarantee.

3 posted on 12/17/2009 3:24:18 PM PST by AndyTheBear
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To: schaef21
Natural Selection, by definition, would select the legs out of the process because there would be no survival advantage in a water environment.

Presumably there are steps between the two with an intermediate state that mostly tended to make sense at each step. Anyway, there are tons of people looking for the evidence of fossils to back fill this theory.

4 posted on 12/17/2009 3:27:49 PM PST by AndyTheBear
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To: ezfindit

“Miller, in his famous experiment in 1953, showed that individual amino acids (the building blocks of life) could come into existence by chance.”

I wonder how controlled the environment was in which he did this.


5 posted on 12/17/2009 3:29:27 PM PST by DonaldC (A nation cannot stand in the absence of religious principle.)
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To: ezfindit
Macro-evolution, variations across biological kinds, is not science but faith.

Nonsense. It is not faith. Its only intellectual presumption. Faith is for things that are trustworthy.

6 posted on 12/17/2009 3:33:06 PM PST by AndyTheBear
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To: ezfindit

anyone seen God Guts and Guns lately?


7 posted on 12/17/2009 3:37:13 PM PST by MNDude (The Republican Congress Economy--1995-2007)
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To: ezfindit
The best little article ever written refuting the origin of life by chance is “A Few Reasons an Evolutionary Origin of Life Is Impossible” by scientist and biochemist Dr. Duane T. Gish. Dr. Gish presents “simple” but profound scientific barriers to evolution of life which aren’t mentioned or covered in Johnny’s high school biology textbook or in college textbooks for that matter.

AND IT NEVER SHOULD BE! Doubt of the evolutionary origin of life automatically makes one a quack, and any such article should be mocked, marginalized, burned or whatever, but never seriously considered. And for the love of Darwin never ever ever ever presented to students! After all, that would be religious dogma!</satire>

8 posted on 12/17/2009 3:40:34 PM PST by AndyTheBear
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To: AndyTheBear

Science be praised.


9 posted on 12/17/2009 3:43:09 PM PST by Anti-Utopian
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To: Anti-Utopian

Hey, I’m a fan of science. I just don’t like pseudo science making itself out to be science.


10 posted on 12/17/2009 3:52:52 PM PST by AndyTheBear
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To: ezfindit

11 posted on 12/17/2009 3:55:27 PM PST by starlifter (Sapor Amo Pullus)
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To: ezfindit
Actually, Darwin didn't address the origin of life, just the origin of species.
12 posted on 12/17/2009 3:57:15 PM PST by colorado tanker (What's it all about, Barrrrry? Is it just for the power, you live?)
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To: Anti-Utopian
Science be praised.

All hail Darwin (sallallat alayhi wa-sallam)!

13 posted on 12/17/2009 4:00:37 PM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (Conservatives unite behind conservative Republicans in the primaries!)
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To: ezfindit

Its “Snap You Finger” time again.


14 posted on 12/17/2009 4:01:15 PM PST by Allen In Texas Hill Country
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To: AndyTheBear

South Park episode; “Go God, Go!”


15 posted on 12/17/2009 4:04:28 PM PST by Anti-Utopian
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the man made religion of darwinism continues onward toward the ash heap of history, save for daily detours thru lala-land of handwaving and government enforced ‘just-so’ stories...


16 posted on 12/17/2009 4:07:24 PM PST by raygunfan
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To: ezfindit

btt


17 posted on 12/17/2009 4:10:12 PM PST by Cacique (quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat ( Islamia Delenda Est ))
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To: schaef21

A more complicated question:

How does one reproductive system evolve into another, as with amphibians to reptiles? Darwin lost not only his cookies but his scientific credentials trying to explain this with the idiotic idea of natural selection.


18 posted on 12/17/2009 4:26:58 PM PST by NightOfTheLivingDems (Destroy the Dems in Two Thousand Ten, and then some)
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To: colorado tanker
He delved into the origin of life with later books.

Then went to tend his garden.
19 posted on 12/17/2009 4:35:30 PM PST by NightOfTheLivingDems (Destroy the Dems in Two Thousand Ten, and then some)
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To: AndyTheBear

“Presumably there are steps between the two with an intermediate state that mostly tended to make sense at each step. Anyway, there are tons of people looking for the evidence of fossils to back fill this theory.”

In my wildest imagination I can’t figure out how partial evolution of a leg might produce some kind of survival advantage whereby it would be kept by the selection process because it might be of use to the organism further down the road.


20 posted on 12/17/2009 4:46:26 PM PST by schaef21
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To: NightOfTheLivingDems

“How does one reproductive system evolve into another, as with amphibians to reptiles?”

Even more ridiculous......dinosaurs to birds.

Dinosaurs were cold-blooded, dense-boned and had no sound producing organ.

Birds are warm-blooded, hollow-boned and have a sound-producing organ.


21 posted on 12/17/2009 4:51:46 PM PST by schaef21
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To: NightOfTheLivingDems

“How does one reproductive system evolve into another, as with amphibians to reptiles?”

Even more ridiculous......dinosaurs to birds.

Dinosaurs were cold-blooded, dense-boned and had no sound producing organ.

Birds are warm-blooded, hollow-boned and have a sound-producing organ.


22 posted on 12/17/2009 4:51:48 PM PST by schaef21
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To: NightOfTheLivingDems; colorado tanker
He [Darwin] delved into the origin of life with later books.

Nope. No he didn't. You're wrong.

23 posted on 12/17/2009 5:58:20 PM PST by Stultis (Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia; Democrats always opposed waterboarding as torture)
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To: schaef21
OK, to play Darwin's advocate, I could imagine a small nub on a tiny creature that helped it get around eventually improving as the critter got bigger into a leg.

If you want to argue irreducible complexity, there are probably better examples.

24 posted on 12/17/2009 6:05:27 PM PST by AndyTheBear
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To: colorado tanker
Actually, Darwin didn't address the origin of life, just the origin of species.

Can you have life without at least one species?

But your right in that his famous theory is about common origin rather than the source of that first species. However, I've read where actually did address the idea of the origin of life, he just had no idea how it could be treated as a scientific theory. He essentially just presumed it somehow emerged from the muck. I have the impression that it wasn't a subject he wrote on often because he didn't want to be labeled a kook by revealing he was a naturalist.

25 posted on 12/17/2009 6:14:28 PM PST by AndyTheBear
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To: schaef21
Natural Selection, by definition, would select the legs out of the process because there would be no survival advantage in a water environment.

Great theory. Lets apply some scientific method to it and put a bunch of fish on land with no water and see what nature selects for them.

26 posted on 12/17/2009 6:21:59 PM PST by AndyTheBear
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To: AndyTheBear; colorado tanker; NightOfTheLivingDems; ezfindit
Darwin's 1871 letter to Joseph Hooker with his speculations on the spontaneous generation of life. This is where he talked about the small warm pond where some chemicals and light and heat and electricity combined to form the first stirrings of life. Exactly the scenario that Miller started out with.
27 posted on 12/17/2009 6:24:29 PM PST by wbarmy (Hard core, extremist, and right-wing is a little too mild for my tastes.)
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To: AndyTheBear

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lungfish


28 posted on 12/17/2009 6:25:07 PM PST by MetaThought
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To: AndyTheBear; schaef21

Sorry...I misunderstood what you were saying and was arguing against the opposing view.


29 posted on 12/17/2009 6:27:59 PM PST by AndyTheBear
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To: ezfindit
There is nothing “junk” about Stanley Miller's experiment.

It also has to do with the hypothesis of abiogenesis, not the theory of evolution through natural selection.

Is it really too much to ask that people know and understand the difference if they want to be taken seriously?

30 posted on 12/17/2009 6:29:59 PM PST by allmendream (Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be RE-distributed?)
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To: MetaThought
Interesting. But see my post 24. I already thought that legs were hardly the way to argue for irreducible complexity.

My post 26 on the other hand was arguing against a point that wasn't actually made...I had thought he was proposing natural selection would evolve legs on a stranded water creature.

31 posted on 12/17/2009 6:41:29 PM PST by AndyTheBear
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To: wbarmy
OK thanks for the reference. I remembered the gist of his comments on the origin of life, but I did not remember enough specifics to get google to find it.
32 posted on 12/17/2009 6:45:07 PM PST by AndyTheBear
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To: schaef21
Even more ridiculous......dinosaurs to birds.

Dinosaurs were cold-blooded, dense-boned and had no sound producing organ.

Wrong, wrong and wrong. (Although I'm not quite sure what you mean by "sound producing organ". Birds don't have any special "sound producing organ" apart from what any other terrestrial vertebrate has.)

To just focus on your error about dense bones. Not only did many dinosaurs have hollow bones, for a genus described last year, there is specific evidence that these bones possessed the same special respiratory function they (otherwise uniquely) do in birds! Full article is online at the link:

Sereno PC, Martinez RN, Wilson JA, Varricchio DJ, Alcober OA, et al. (2008) Evidence for Avian Intrathoracic Air Sacs in a New Predatory Dinosaur from Argentina. PLoS ONE 3(9): e3303.

In this YouTube video you can see one of the authors holding one of the hollow bones.

The following figure from the article shows some of the pneumatopores (where the air sacs entered the bones) in the fossils from this dinosaur, which btw is named Aerosteon, Greek for "air bone":

So, we find a very specialized adaptation, otherwise utterly unique to birds, in a group of dinosaurs which were previously identified (about 150 years ago, btw) as closest to modern birds. Coincidence? For creationists, I suppose it has to be.

33 posted on 12/17/2009 6:52:36 PM PST by Stultis (Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia; Democrats always opposed waterboarding as torture)
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To: schaef21; AndyTheBear; ezfindit
“Presumably there are steps between the two with an intermediate state that mostly tended to make sense at each step. Anyway, there are tons of people looking for the evidence of fossils to back fill this theory.”

"In my wildest imagination I can’t figure out how partial evolution of a leg might produce some kind of survival advantage whereby it would be kept by the selection process because it might be of use to the organism further down the road."

First, you began in this period to get plants invading the water margins, forming dense swamps and forests around the water's edge. And some of the fishes living in the shallows would have found it advantageous perhaps to lose the fin webbing from their fingers and develop separate digits. Fish have bony supports for the fin web. If you lose those and make the digits separate, then you can begin to grasp things and push aside the vegetation. You can also grasp the vegetation to hold your position in the water. There are quite a lot of modern fish that do this.
This is from a Nova series on evolution, in this case, the creature that may come closest to providing the link between water-dwellers and land-crawlers that may be found, Acanthostega.

What we think happened is that these creatures, which were developing this mode of life in the shallows, developed legs with digits before they ever started really to walk on the land at all. So they would have got their legs first, then gradually perhaps moved into shallower and shallower water—more and more vegetation and less and less water—and eventually emerged onto the land. But it took a very long time.
The show was fascinating, and the article is a very interesting read. Fins to fingers. Whoulda thunkit?
34 posted on 12/17/2009 7:10:55 PM PST by NicknamedBob (It seems to me that a wise PALINa woman would, more often than not, reach a better conclusion.)
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To: ezfindit

The idea that life emerged “by chance” is not the foundation of evolution. The fact that evolutionists disagree amongst themselves about how it works does not by default prove that the world is 6,000 years old and the fossils are the remains of animals wiped out in a Biblical flood.

Evolution is not incompatible with faith; it can indeed be one of the many mechanisms used by the Divine to facilitate life.

The tilt of the Earth, the rate it spins on its axis, the strength of its protective magnetic field, the size, speed and shape of its orbit around the sun — this and so much more is in such a precise balance to allow for life. Chance simply does not explain just how precious of a Blessing this world is.


35 posted on 12/17/2009 7:11:53 PM PST by walford (http://the-big-pic.org)
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To: schaef21

“Dinosaurs were cold-blooded, dense-boned and had no sound producing organ.

Birds are warm-blooded, hollow-boned and have a sound-producing organ.”

That is incorrect. Dinosaurs are characterized by being warm-blooded. [Regular reptiles like the ancestors of crocodiles were indeed cold-blooded and are not called dinosaurs.]

T. Rex had a high metabolic rate and moved like birds. They were big, strong and fast. Many dinosaurs had feathers that were mostly used to preserve internally generated warmth. Their descendants are birds.

Feathers and fur would be useless for cold-blooded animals; their skin must be naked so they can absorb externally generated warmth. Their descendants are lizards.

Accepting this does not mean that Jesus did not die for your sins.


36 posted on 12/17/2009 7:25:27 PM PST by walford (http://the-big-pic.org)
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To: NicknamedBob

Please note the following words used in the NOVA documentary:

“What we THINK happened”, “They WOULD HAVE got their legs first”, “then gradually PERHAPS moved into shallower and shallower water”,

In every scientific discipline words like “scientists think”, “we believe”, “perhaps”, “would have”, “could have”, “might have”, “possibly”, “maybe” are used in describing the evolutionary process.

Is any of this actual science? Does any of it meet the scientific method....observable, testable, repeatable, falsifiable?

In the current “Climate Change (formerly Global Warming) debate” Scientists had the worldview that it was true and then twisted and turned the evidence to fit their worldview. The same thing has been going on in the Creation vs. Evolution debate for years.

“We know evolution is true, therefore what would have had to have happened to get from a cell in a mud puddle to a human being”?

Conjecture, conjecture, promising bit of data that might fit our worldview, more conjecture, leap of faith, unverifiable generalization, more conjecture and voila.
This then is followed by the inevitable shot across the bow of anyone who says the Emporer has no clothes. “What are you nuts? Evolution is a fact you flat earth idiot.”

Browbeat me all you want.....I believe in our Creator.


37 posted on 12/17/2009 7:58:57 PM PST by schaef21
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To: schaef21
"Is any of this actual science?"

Yes.

The part where they dig the bones out of the rock is science.

If you don't like their conjectures, guesses, and postulations, you are free to develop your own. But keep in mind that the late Devonian was just a little bit different from what we see around us now.

From where do we derive the word tetrapod? Why do most animals have the form of four limbs?

Why do we have no more than five fingers? Acanthostega was experimenting with eight!

How did animals, and by extension those curious bipeds with four limbs and minimally effective dentition, come to be the way they are?

Answering those questions, and having your answers come to be respected opinion ... that's actual science.

38 posted on 12/17/2009 8:10:54 PM PST by NicknamedBob (It seems to me that a wise PALINa woman would, more often than not, reach a better conclusion.)
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To: Stultis

So Stultis, educate me some more.

Which came first the dense-boned or hollow-boned dinosaurs? How exactly did that evolutionary process occur? Since some reptiles/dinosaurs are warm-blooded and some are cold-blooded (as you seem to indicate) what might have been the sequence of events?

Archaeopteryx supposedly proved that birds came from dinosaurs....except that was refuted by many bird experts (See Alan Feduccia)who have concluded that Archaeopteryx was 100% bird. The fact that birds were found later in lower strata than Archaeopteryx put to rest the conjecture that it was a transitional fossil.

Then came Archaeorapter, a hoax from China.... the big deal about this is not that it was a hoax. Fossil hunters know the big dollars that are out there if they can convince someone that they found a “transitional fossil”.

The big deal is that the major media wanted so much for it to be true that they threw “due diligence” out the window and just blindly accepted it.... kind of like the mainstream media does whenever some new “statistic” is put forth by NOW, GREENPEACE or any other left wing group with a cause they agree with.

National Geographic still has egg on their face over the huge spread they did on Archaeoraptor.

Having said all that....I’ll go to your links and read the information there. I’ll also do some due diligence and find out what others have concluded.


39 posted on 12/17/2009 8:27:49 PM PST by schaef21
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To: allmendream
There is nothing “junk” about Stanley Miller's experiment.

It also has to do with the hypothesis of abiogenesis, not the theory of evolution through natural selection.

And if anything, it proves that that sort of abiogenesis is a dead end. The "junk" comes in when people try to claim that it showed a potential abiogenetic pathway.

Miller had to create an atmosphere for which, as it turns out, there is no evidence that it ever existed on this planet. He had to artificially trap the amino acids in one section of his apparatus. He only got a few of the twenty that are used in life forms, and the ones he did get were racemic mixtures, whereas lifeforms use only laevorotatory forms.

Even if we granted the presence of all the amino acids needed to build a particular protein, the fact remains that they aren't going to react spontaneously to do any such thing: all those polymerization reactions are reversible in the presence of water. Which means, they break up as well as join together, and just as easily.

You'd be as well off throwing a bucket of nickels in the air and betting that they all land heads-up as relying on such a "mechanism" as this to get life started. And Darwin has nothing to offer until you have something live that can reproduce itself.

40 posted on 12/17/2009 8:33:35 PM PST by thulldud (It HAS happened here!)
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To: NicknamedBob

Hey Bob...

My point stands....

Conjectures, guesses and postulations are not science.

What worldview you start with determines what conjectures, guesses and postulations you come up with. The same is true in my worldview.

Science has to do with the observable present, not the unobservable past.

Evolution and Creation are both faith-based propositions. Creation Scientists look at the same evidence as Evolutionists and come to far different conclusions.

The origin of life can not be divorced from the theory of evolution.....it would be a theory without a beginning. As such, there are only two ways that life could have begun....a supernatural act of creation or on it’s own. Science, since Darwin, has eliminated the Supernatural before ever looking at the evidence. Having done that, what other conclusions could they come to?


41 posted on 12/17/2009 8:40:28 PM PST by schaef21
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To: thulldud
"And Darwin has nothing to offer until you have something live that can reproduce itself."

A point too often missed in discussion.

In fact, I would assume that Darwin's concentration was on the effects of selection pressures after sexual reproduction had become a routine part of biological processes on Earth.

What the processes were before that remain virtually anybody's guess. Which is why Miller's experiment is useful. If nothing else, like Edison's research, it may tell us what didn't work to bring about life's origin.

Your point about the handedness of life's molecules is a valid one, but it also indicates that the opportunity for these molecules to get together and dance may have occurred even earlier in the time sequence than Miller and Urey had seemed to suggest.

If development in space is what gives amino acids their lopsidedness, then a method of surviving atmospheric entry must also be theirs.

Researchers and advocates are often challenged to reproduce such events in a test tube or laboratory. Well, no one has equipped a laboratory anywhere with more pots and pools and warm dusty corners than primordial Earth provided a few billion years ago! And it was in operation for a very long time! Moving continents apart by a few centimeters a year is nothing compared to coaxing molecules into becoming a junkyard umbrella.

42 posted on 12/17/2009 8:51:02 PM PST by NicknamedBob (It seems to me that a wise PALINa woman would, more often than not, reach a better conclusion.)
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To: thulldud
My point is that the title betrays the utter ignorance of the author. Stanley Millers experiment showed an interesting fact, that several amino acids can form spontaneously. Nothing junk about it, and nothing about evolution either. So the title “Junk Science Exposed in Evolutionary Theory” is not supported by the article.

Is it too much to ask that people actually know and understand the difference between evolution and abiogenesis before them wanting their opinion on the subject to be taken seriously?

43 posted on 12/17/2009 8:57:38 PM PST by allmendream (Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be RE-distributed?)
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To: schaef21
"And Darwin has nothing to offer until you have something live that can reproduce itself."

Even more importantly, it's the questions you ask, and the work you do to find a plausible explanation, that makes for very interesting scientific research, or for interesting but unrewarding backroom discussions.

Why do so many animals have four limbs? That was at the forefront of the research done into animals that lived in the time when this development came about.

And it was the question that you asked that drove them, too. How did limbs evolve? Why did limbs evolve?

Those were your questions. I merely pointed you to some research that was attempting to speculate on the answers.

44 posted on 12/17/2009 9:02:30 PM PST by NicknamedBob (It seems to me that a wise PALINa woman would, more often than not, reach a better conclusion.)
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To: NicknamedBob
The show was fascinating, and the article is a very interesting read. Fins to fingers. Whoulda thunkit?

An interesting hypothesis. It would be cool if there was some scientific way to test it.

45 posted on 12/17/2009 9:02:51 PM PST by AndyTheBear
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To: AndyTheBear
"An interesting hypothesis. It would be cool if there was some scientific way to test it."

Yep. Paleontology has got to be the most boring work this side of hard labor in a prison work gang. Rock, hammer ... rock, hammer ... rock, hammer ...

46 posted on 12/17/2009 9:15:25 PM PST by NicknamedBob (It seems to me that a wise PALINa woman would, more often than not, reach a better conclusion.)
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To: allmendream
.......Is it too much to ask that people actually know and understand the difference between evolution and abiogenesis before them wanting their opinion on the subject to be taken seriously?

The issue is not the difference between evolution and abiogenesis. The issue is that the hidden claim is that evolution is result from abiogenesis. Problem is there is NO evidence ever discovered, uncovered, replicated, or created to demonstrate there ever was such a thing as abiogenesis. But it remains the foundation that gave birth to the TOE.

47 posted on 12/17/2009 9:23:58 PM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Just mythoughts
There is no claim, “hidden” or otherwise, that evolution “is result from abiogenesis”. The theory of evolution through natural selection is in no way dependent upon any particular mechanism, natural or miraculous, that resulted in the formation of life. Evolution is only dependent upon that life, once formed, being an imperfect replicator subject to selective pressure; and it is.

But IS it too much to ask that someone actually know and understand the difference between evolution and abiogenesis before them wanting their opinion on the subject taken seriously?

Apparently so.

48 posted on 12/17/2009 9:29:38 PM PST by allmendream (Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be RE-distributed?)
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To: allmendream
There is no claim, “hidden” or otherwise, that evolution “is result from abiogenesis”. The theory of evolution through natural selection is in no way dependent upon any particular mechanism, natural or miraculous, that resulted in the formation of life. Evolution is only dependent upon that life, once formed, being an imperfect replicator subject to selective pressure; and it is. But IS it too much to ask that someone actually know and understand the difference between evolution and abiogenesis before them wanting their opinion on the subject taken seriously? Apparently so.

Are you saying that abiogenesis did not happen?

49 posted on 12/17/2009 9:42:27 PM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: allmendream
Is it too much to ask that people actually know and understand the difference between evolution and abiogenesis before them wanting their opinion on the subject to be taken seriously?

I suspect that the title is really a reference to the popular perception of the Miller-Urey experiment, which derives from the media coverage at the time, plus the treatment of the same in education ever since then.

You will admit that whenever the media get involved, science, or anything else resembling rational analysis, is the first casualty in the scramble for ratings. Same old same old....

50 posted on 12/17/2009 9:46:06 PM PST by thulldud (It HAS happened here!)
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