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Libertarians Need to Rethink Support for Drug Legalization
Pajamas Media ^ | Dec. 22 | Mary Grabar

Posted on 12/22/2009 1:47:42 PM PST by AJKauf

A truly sad story about a 23-year-old Panama City man dying while being subdued by Bay County sheriff’s deputies has reawakened the debate about the legalization of marijuana. On December 11, 2009, Andrew Grande choked on a plastic bag full of marijuana as police attempted to arrest him on a violence charge. A video shows police valiantly trying to save his life once it became apparent that he was having difficulty breathing.

Two talk show hosts in Panama City have been discussing the case in the early morning hours — and revealing a divide on the right. Burnie Thompson of WYOO, the libertarian, has called Grande “a casualty of the war on drugs” and contended that because marijuana is illegal, Grande felt “compelled” to swallow a bag of it to avoid punishment.

Nonsense, says Doc Washburn on station WFLF. He invited former Congressman Ernest Istook from the Heritage Foundation and Tina Trent, who blogs on crime, to speak about the dangers of marijuana to the user and to society. Trent indicated that Grande had faced probably only a misdemeanor charge; she pointed to studies showing that the illegal drug trade flourishes despite the legality of marijuana in certain states and other countries. And legalizing marijuana will remove the freedom employers now have to test for the judgment-impairing drug.

The position on the legalization of marijuana provides the point of departure from the traditional libertarianism of Barry Goldwater. In abandoning the duty to enforce social order, today’s libertarians have made a devil’s pact with the pro-drug forces of George Soros and company.

(Excerpt) Read more at pajamasmedia.com ...


TOPICS: Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: legalization; lping; marijuana; pot; warondrugs; wod; wosd
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1 posted on 12/22/2009 1:47:44 PM PST by AJKauf
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To: AJKauf

Vices are not crimes.


2 posted on 12/22/2009 1:49:25 PM PST by Tublecane
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To: AJKauf

read later


3 posted on 12/22/2009 1:51:19 PM PST by massmike (...So this is what happens when OJ's jury elects the president....)
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To: Tublecane

What part of the COTUS empowers the federal government to decide what I amy eat, drink, or smoke?

Another commerce clause rationalization, no doubt.


4 posted on 12/22/2009 1:53:15 PM PST by swain_forkbeard (Rationality may not be sufficient, but it is necessary.)
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To: AJKauf
And legalizing marijuana will remove the freedom employers now have to test for the judgment-impairing drug.

Can employers also test for alcohol impairment?? Alcohol is legal, yet you can't fly a plane right after having a martini.

5 posted on 12/22/2009 1:56:06 PM PST by KosmicKitty (WARNING: Hormonally crazed woman ahead!!)
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To: KosmicKitty
Can employers also test for alcohol impairment??

Many employers, including mine, have in their policies a no alcohol policy. Consuming alcohol on company property and/or during work hours is grounds for immediate termination.

6 posted on 12/22/2009 1:58:05 PM PST by Phantom Lord (Fall on to your knees for the Phantom Lord)
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To: AJKauf

I don’t have major issues with legalization but I do have issues with selling out to the likes of Soros and the lying that surrounds the issue. With Soros its not a rights issue, its like all things with him, a control and influence issue.

Claiming that its a medicine, then running college courses on how to grow and grade it only makes them look like liars. Here in Michigan its a pretty standard ballot issue that has lost every time till this last election, then suddenly there was a wide swing in every single county that was questionable at best. (BTW I voted for legalization)


7 posted on 12/22/2009 1:58:29 PM PST by cripplecreek (Seniors, the new shovel ready project under socialized medicine.)
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To: AJKauf

If my engaging in an activity does not deprive another of their life, liberty, or property through fraud or force, it should be legal.


8 posted on 12/22/2009 1:59:00 PM PST by Phantom Lord (Fall on to your knees for the Phantom Lord)
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To: AJKauf

You know how the Dims have smokes for votes? Well we could counter with doobies for drones. Give your urban Dim drone a doobie on election day and just tell them that the polling place is over at the local McDonald’s


9 posted on 12/22/2009 2:01:33 PM PST by grumpygresh
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To: AJKauf

Why, because someone choked on a plastic bag?

How about this.

If pot were legal, the guy would still be alive, and in jail for whatever it was he did to get arrested in the first place.


10 posted on 12/22/2009 2:02:36 PM PST by camp_steveo
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To: AJKauf

Grannies are getting arrested for innocently buying 3 boxes of antihistamines in Indiana within a week. F the “war on drugs,” free granny.


11 posted on 12/22/2009 2:02:53 PM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: Tublecane

This is what we get when we criminalize vices , even a misdemeanor can easily cost any one of us our jobs, of course he felt compelled to defend himself in the only way he could, to swallow the evidence. The penalties are WAY out of whack with the “crimes” , especially when they follow you for life with our computerization.


12 posted on 12/22/2009 2:02:53 PM PST by Neidermeyer
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To: AJKauf

It’ll turn you into a bat and make you have sex with jazz musicians. Just ask Henry Anslinger...


13 posted on 12/22/2009 2:06:08 PM PST by Dead Corpse (III)
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To: Larry Lucido
Correction. She bought TWO boxes of cold medicine. Lock the thug up!


14 posted on 12/22/2009 2:06:58 PM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: AJKauf

“And legalizing marijuana will remove the freedom employers now have to test for the judgment-impairing drug.”

Pure unadulterated BS.

And the pot didn’t kill him the bag/violence did.


15 posted on 12/22/2009 2:08:03 PM PST by wolfcreek (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsd7DGqVSIc)
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To: AJKauf

Legalize it, tax it and control it just like it’s much more dangerous counterparts, alcohol and tobacco. The amount of police time freed up will be used to catch criminal pushers causing much more danger to society and killing young people (There are no elderly users of Crystal Meth, Angel Dust and PCP). Legalize heroin too, and let people get on a program leading to methadone and release from the deadly scourge of heroin.

Libertarians believe it best to criminalize only those causing a real danger to others.

..or not buying health insurance!

/s


16 posted on 12/22/2009 2:08:07 PM PST by SaxxonWoods (TIME Person Of The Year, 2006 (You can look it up!).)
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To: Tublecane

Like anonymous males having sex in public restrooms?


17 posted on 12/22/2009 2:08:09 PM PST by a fool in paradise (Question authority!Who is the University of East Anglia to drive the 'Global Climate Change' agenda?)
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To: AJKauf
And legalizing marijuana will remove the freedom employers now have to test for the judgment-impairing drug.

This argument is utterly vacuous. "Employment at will" gives employers the freedom to test/fire for anything except for prohibited discrimination. And even those prohibitions should be ruled unconstitutional

18 posted on 12/22/2009 2:08:16 PM PST by Theophilus (Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee, which frameth mischief by a law?)
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To: swain_forkbeard

There ought to be a law against plastic bags!


19 posted on 12/22/2009 2:08:28 PM PST by GeezerConservative
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To: AJKauf

This should be a fun thread. All the Anti-Nanny State conservatives will rise to tell us how the State should be the Nanny in the case of drugs.


20 posted on 12/22/2009 2:08:42 PM PST by kAcknor ("A pistol! Are you expecting trouble sir?" "No ma'am, were I expecting trouble I'd have a rifle.")
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To: AJKauf

This should be a fun thread. All the Anti-Nanny State conservatives will rise to tell us how the State should be the Nanny in the case of drugs.


21 posted on 12/22/2009 2:08:59 PM PST by kAcknor ("A pistol! Are you expecting trouble sir?" "No ma'am, were I expecting trouble I'd have a rifle.")
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To: kAcknor

maybe not. kind of quiet so far.


22 posted on 12/22/2009 2:10:47 PM PST by MNDude (The Republican Congress Economy--1995-2007)
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To: AJKauf
"Marijuana killed Andrew Grande, not only in the literal sense, but in the sense that it abetted his descent into a very sad, counter-cultural lifestyle. Its legalization is supported by the same forces that promote Kevin Jennings, one-world government, Gaia worship, and legalized prostitution. All these elements work against the traditional libertarian values of initiative, freedom, and honor. Libertarians need to rethink their position on drug legalization."

I'm CERTAIN that's the silliest argument I've ever read from a so-called smart and educated person.

There are millions of conservatives that smoke pot and they all just got smeared by an idiot.

23 posted on 12/22/2009 2:13:57 PM PST by Mariner
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To: AJKauf

One idiot chokes to death because he eats a baggie of weed and we should rethink our whole drug legalization stance because of it? The only thing sad here is the logic in that article.


24 posted on 12/22/2009 2:16:21 PM PST by ravingnutter
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To: Neidermeyer

We’ve got a “throw the book at ‘em” mentality when it come to drunk driving (0.08 and less, no accidents) yet when a judge offers to “help” a suspect in exchange for sexual favors, the judge isn’t disbarred or fired or sentenced the same as a drunk driver (time, fines, community service).

PS, the judge has just made a case for those seeking appeals that there is a difference in the quality of court appointed legal representation and they exert some influence over who gets which lawyer...

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/breaking/6781092.html
Judge sentenced to 30 days in official oppression case
By RENEE C. LEE
Copyright 2009 Houston Chronicle
Dec. 21, 2009, 11:11PM

Harris County Criminal Court-at-law Judge Donald Jackson on Monday was sentenced to 30 days in jail and two years’ probation following his conviction on a charge of official oppression for allegedly trying to strike up a relationship with a drunken driving defendant in his court.

Jackson, who was found guilty of the misdemeanor by a jury last Friday, also was ordered to perform 200 hours of community service, pay a $4,000 fine and take 25 hours of state-approved legal ethics courses for each of the next two years by state District Judge Mark Kent Ellis.

Ellis, who admonished Jackson, 60, for his actions, also ruled Jackson must leave the bench, pending appeal.

“You demean what it means to be a judge,” Ellis told Jackson. “We are all tarnished by your stupidity.”

...The oppression charge stemmed from the DWI case of Ariana Venegas, 28, who accused Jackson of offering her a better court-appointed lawyer if she took up his offer of a romantic relationship that was “more than a one-night stand.” She testified last week that Jackson told her that if she was not interested in a relationship with him, she would be convicted because he was the judge on her case.

...Jackson, who was suspended with pay by the State Commission on Judicial Conduct after he was indicted in August, has an annual salary of $140,000.

...He was released from the Harris County Jail after posting $5,000 bail late Monday.


Doesn’t say how much of the 30 days he served, or if he serves it after his appeal runs its course.


25 posted on 12/22/2009 2:17:25 PM PST by a fool in paradise (Question authority!Who is the University of East Anglia to drive the 'Global Climate Change' agenda?)
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To: cripplecreek

I look at the WODs as just another way to control people’s lives and we as taxpayers are footing the bill.

IIRC, there are over 1.5 million non-violent drug offenders in our prison systems.

AAMOF, about 750 per 100,000 people in this country are in jail. We lead the world.


26 posted on 12/22/2009 2:17:37 PM PST by wolfcreek (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsd7DGqVSIc)
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To: KosmicKitty
Can employers also test for alcohol impairment??

Uhhh, YES! It's routine in manufacturing and retail.

27 posted on 12/22/2009 2:17:58 PM PST by Hacksaw
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To: Neidermeyer
This is what we get when we criminalize vices

Vices have been criminalized since the founding of the nation.

28 posted on 12/22/2009 2:19:18 PM PST by Hacksaw
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To: camp_steveo

How about “Libertarians need to rethink their support for plastic bags”

Mel


29 posted on 12/22/2009 2:20:30 PM PST by melsec (Jesus is the reason for the season!)
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To: Phantom Lord
Many employers, including mine, have in their policies a no alcohol policy. Consuming alcohol on company property and/or during work hours is grounds for immediate termination.

Exactly!!

If employers are allowed to have a no alcohol policy, why couldn't they have a no pot policy if pot was legal?

I don't understand the argument in this article that employers couldn't test for pot.

30 posted on 12/22/2009 2:20:39 PM PST by KosmicKitty (WARNING: Hormonally crazed woman ahead!!)
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To: wolfcreek

Quoting Soros crap doesn’t impress me.

How many of those people are in jail for drug possesion as their sole charge?


31 posted on 12/22/2009 2:20:44 PM PST by cripplecreek (Seniors, the new shovel ready project under socialized medicine.)
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To: kAcknor
This should be a fun thread. All the Anti-Nanny State conservatives will rise to tell us how the State should be the Nanny in the case of drugs.

And embrace the New Deal Commerce Clause.

32 posted on 12/22/2009 2:22:32 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: AJKauf

Think everyone is missing the point:

Darwin Award Winner!


33 posted on 12/22/2009 2:23:03 PM PST by SouthTexas (Charge global warmers under RICO.)
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To: Hacksaw
Can employers also test for alcohol impairment?? Uhhh, YES! It's routine in manufacturing and retail.

Of course it is, and alcohol is legal. So why couldn't an employer test for pot if it were legal?

This article makes no sense - author must have caught a buzz before writing it!

When plastic baggies are outlawed, only outlaws will have plastic baggies.

34 posted on 12/22/2009 2:27:01 PM PST by KosmicKitty (WARNING: Hormonally crazed woman ahead!!)
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To: swain_forkbeard

“Another commerce clause rationalization, no doubt.”

No diggity! Either that or the “necessary and proper” clause.


35 posted on 12/22/2009 2:27:37 PM PST by Tublecane
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To: AJKauf

Viagra is a recreational drug too........


36 posted on 12/22/2009 2:28:14 PM PST by Species8472 (Limit all politicians to two terms, one in office and one in prison. (Illinois Already Does This)
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To: Tublecane
How about the 1000's killed every year due to the drug trade? Are those crimes?

Now go ahead, tell me that if drugs were legalized, there would be no need for drug crime. I love when I hear that.

37 posted on 12/22/2009 2:31:22 PM PST by thefactor (yes, as a matter of fact, i DID only read the excerpt)
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To: SaxxonWoods

“Legalize it, tax it and control it”

Why must we, too, add the tax part? I mean, I know why radical individual-type libs do it. But why do we act as if expected tax revenue is a justification? I’d rather we tax less things, thanks.


38 posted on 12/22/2009 2:32:00 PM PST by Tublecane
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To: a fool in paradise

“Like anonymous males having sex in public restrooms?”

No. The sex may be a vice, but the crime is not the sex. The crime is the public lewdness. Lewdness in public is not a vice.


39 posted on 12/22/2009 2:33:59 PM PST by Tublecane
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To: AJKauf
The author(s) probably think we made a mistake with the 21 Amendment that repealed Prohibition?

This is the same principle.
40 posted on 12/22/2009 2:34:04 PM PST by truthguy (Good intentions are not enough!)
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To: cripplecreek

Forget about Soros, he’s ANOTHER excuse for the WOD.

Here’s something right up your alley.

http://www.thedailypage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=47210&start=60


41 posted on 12/22/2009 2:34:50 PM PST by wolfcreek (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsd7DGqVSIc)
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To: AJKauf

This has been one of my biggest problems with libertarians and is why I’m a solid Republican. Also the foreign policy insanity.


42 posted on 12/22/2009 2:36:23 PM PST by Tolsti2
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To: All

Legalize the MJ, regulate and tax it. It’s no more dangerous than booze and probably less.

I would rather go to a call where the folks have been getting their smoke on versus their drink on. People smoking weed in the privacy of their homes are only dangerous to snack food.

As far the rest, meth, heroin, crack, no freaking way. I have never locked up a car thief or burglar who said he needed MJ money. Crack, “hairon”, different story altogether. People don’t steal their families and friends credit cards or identification because they need some grass.

I have arrested alot of people both violent crimes and drug crimes. Don’t believe the hype about prisons being full of non-violent drug offenders. It’s pure BS. The prisons are packed full of very dangerous scumbags who are released with regular frequency when another new violent scumbag needs to do some time. Every dope dealer I ever investigated and/or arrested had violent history and nearly all them where armed at the time I took them into custody.

Drug abusers get probation and redirection over and over again.

If you want verification, seek out the administration of your local penal system and ask them for the offense breakdown of their facility.


43 posted on 12/22/2009 2:40:25 PM PST by Molon Labbie
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To: kAcknor
All the Anti-Nanny State conservatives will rise to tell us how the State should be the Nanny in the case of drugs.

Boy do I really agree with your comments. I've noticed some real inconsistencies with some who call themselves real conservatives and yet are completely in agreement with the insane war on drugs. They are so inconsistent that it isn't funny. They believe that if drugs were legal every other person would be a drug addict. I try to tell them that every other person isn't a alcoholic. They simple ignore that and say that if alcohol were invented today it should be illegal! Frightening that these people are walking around and calling themselves conservatives. These people give the conservative movement a bad rap.
44 posted on 12/22/2009 2:41:15 PM PST by truthguy (Good intentions are not enough!)
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To: thefactor

“How about the 1000’s killed every year due to the drug trade? Are those crimes?”

Yes. It’s called “murder”.

“Now go ahead, tell me that if drugs were legalized, there would be no need for drug crime.”

There would be no need for it, any more than there’s a need for crime over any other commodity. I hardly need to explain to you that drugs and crime are associated with one another for a very simple reason. Due to the threat of punishment, black markets attract people willing to risk punishment: i.e., criminals. It’s common sense. Take away the crime and you more or less take away the criminals.


45 posted on 12/22/2009 2:42:32 PM PST by Tublecane
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To: SaxxonWoods
Libertarians believe it best to criminalize only
those causing a real danger to others.

Agree
Criminalize only behavior that substantively
injures other by loss of property
or measurable person injury

46 posted on 12/22/2009 2:42:56 PM PST by HangnJudge
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To: AJKauf
In abandoning the duty to enforce social order

What!! Libertarians cannot abandon something they do not believe in.

47 posted on 12/22/2009 2:48:10 PM PST by org.whodat
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To: KosmicKitty
Can employers also test for alcohol impairment??

Yes, it's been that way for over ten years.

48 posted on 12/22/2009 2:50:07 PM PST by org.whodat
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To: Mariner

“Its legalization is supported by the same forces that promote Kevin Jennings, one-world government, Gaia worship, and legalized prostitution.”

All the pot smokers I know have no idea what the things mentioned in this sentence are.


49 posted on 12/22/2009 2:52:11 PM PST by dljordan (Psalm 109:8 "Let his days be few; and let another take his office. ")
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To: AJKauf

I am really not interested in talking or doing business with people who are too high to really understand what is going on.


50 posted on 12/22/2009 2:52:28 PM PST by freekitty (Give me back my conservative vote; then find me a real conservative to vote for)
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