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They Only Look Dead
American Conservative ^ | 2009-12-22 | Daniel Larison

Posted on 12/22/2009 5:35:21 PM PST by rabscuttle385

Justin Raimondo detects yet another death of neoconservatism and yet another resurgence of non-interventionism on the right. As usual, he takes isolated examples, misinterprets them and then grossly exaggerates their importance. It is great news that many Tea Party protesters support something like a non-interventionist foreign policy. As many of them were originally Ron Paul supporters, just as I was, it makes sense that quite a few of them do support this. It would be even better news if there were any reason to believe that most of the Republican Party and conservative movement shared their foreign policy views. The very thing that Raimondo cites as evidence of this, namely the criticism Tea Partiers are receiving from Frum’s neoconservatives, is proof that it is not so.

At the moment, Ron Paul is getting a hearing on fiscal and economic policy because it suits both party and movement to pretend that the GOP values fiscal responsibility and limited government. We know that the party does not value these things, but it is a start. It is on these issues that Tea Party protesters and the rest of the movement are finding common ground. That is fine as far as it goes, but movement conservatives are fixated on questions of spending in order to avoid taking any responsibility for the foreign policy they have endorsed for years. Like Pawlenty, who is now trying to appeal to Tea Party sentiments by suddenly adopting the positions they favor, these conservatives blame Republican collapse on excessive spending and corruption. They are reacting to what they believe was the lesson of the 2006 and 2008 elections. The only trouble is that they have learned the wrong lesson. As ever, the war in Iraq and the GOP’s other foreign policy mistakes are never mentioned, and just like Pawlenty they continue to believe that invading Iraq was the right thing to do.

What Raimondo seems unable to grasp is that Republicans and movement conservatives are encouraging and tolerating Tea Party protesters in spite of their foreign policy views, which they know they can safely ignore anyway. The attacks on their foreign policy views by Frum et al. are a desperate bid to make them seem unacceptable to party and movement leaders in order to derail Tea Party advocacy of libertarian and small-government conservative economic and domestic policies. Why do Frum et al. focus on the Tea Party protesters’ foreign policy views and their support for Ron Paul? They do this because they are reasonably sure that most Republicans and conservatives see these things as liabilities. It is not true that the only thing that matters to Frum et al. is foreign policy. Most of what Frum has been doing for the last several years and the purpose of his website have been to move the GOP and the movement to the left on most domestic policies.

On foreign policy, Frum and his colleagues are not at odds with the rest of the right, and they know it. It is on domestic policy where they are on the margins and have relatively little influence at the moment, and so they are trying to undermine their opponents in domestic policy debates by drawing attention to foreign policy views that the Tea Partiers hold and which most on the right seems not to hold. It is the equivalent of “centrist” Democrats c. 2003-04 using progressives’ foreign policy views against them, but the difference is that the “centrists” in the GOP have the majority of the party on their side when it comes to foreign policy. That is lamentable and disastrous, as the recent elections have shown, but it is the way things are at present. At the moment, neoconservative domestic policy arguments are out of favor, but there is scarce evidence that their foreign policy arguments are unpopular among Republicans and conservatives. When even some of the “antiwar” Republicans on Afghanistan vote for imposing sanctions on Iran and wish to launch a war against Iran, it would appear that neoconservatism is not nearly as politically weak as we would like it to be.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: delusionalpaulites; frum; gopfuture; libertarian; lping; neocons; ronpaul; surrenderjunkies; teaparty

1 posted on 12/22/2009 5:35:25 PM PST by rabscuttle385
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To: djsherin; bamahead; Bokababe; BGHater
The attacks on their foreign policy views by Frum et al. are a desperate bid to make them seem unacceptable to party and movement leaders in order to derail Tea Party advocacy of libertarian and small-government conservative economic and domestic policies...Most of what Frum has been doing for the last several years and the purpose of his website have been to move the GOP and the movement to the left on most domestic policies.

*Ping!*

2 posted on 12/22/2009 5:36:40 PM PST by rabscuttle385 (Purge the RINOs! * http://restoretheconstitution.ning.com/)
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To: rabscuttle385

Hmm, interesting thoughts in that, though I’m not certain that Tea Party protestors and American Victory advocates are exactly at odds to begin with, most Conservatives and moderates want both wars to be one, the anti Victory forces are generally far more leftist than even Lincoln Chaffey.

Unless “foreign policiy views” is meant to be some sort of codewords?


3 posted on 12/22/2009 5:42:00 PM PST by padre35 (You shall not ignore the laws of God, the Market, the Jungle, and Reciprocity Rm10.10)
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To: padre35

Meh...the pseudo attack...of the moderate moderates...

“At the moment, neoconservative domestic policy arguments are out of favor, but there is scarce evidence that their foreign policy arguments are unpopular among Republicans and conservatives. When even some of the “antiwar” Republicans on Afghanistan vote for imposing sanctions on Iran and wish to launch a war against Iran, it would appear that neoconservatism is not nearly as politically weak as we would like it to be.”

Ronnie was against Attacks on the Taliban after 9/11...

He’s our cindy sheehan..


4 posted on 12/22/2009 6:10:59 PM PST by Crim
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To: rabscuttle385
When even some of the “antiwar” Republicans on Afghanistan vote for imposing sanctions on Iran and wish to launch a war against Iran, it would appear that neoconservatism is not nearly as politically weak as we would like it to be.

Yeah, we're all just war mongers, even the "antiwar" Republicans. The fact that a nutcase is about to acquire nuclear weapons in one of the most politically, geographically and economically sensitive regions of the world, an area that has been unstable for all of recorded history, has nothing to do with it.

5 posted on 12/22/2009 6:13:28 PM PST by Hardastarboard (Maureen Dowd is right. I DON'T like our President's color. He's a Red.)
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To: padre35

There are only two options, win the war or lose it. Being anti Iraq/Afghanistan war can either mean tail-between-legs defeatism, or get it over with by winning decisively. I don’t believe playing for a tie is an option any sane human believes in (hence Obama is not sane).


6 posted on 12/22/2009 6:14:50 PM PST by FastCoyote (I am intolerant of the intolerable.)
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To: rabscuttle385

What they don’t get, but they will when it is time, is that true conservatives are being “sifted” during this time. The phonies, RINOs and pretenders will be winnowed out. It doesn’t take a super-majority to overcome evil, just committed believers standing fast, not giving in.


7 posted on 12/22/2009 6:18:28 PM PST by brushcop (SFC Sallie, CPL Long, LTHarris, SSG Brown, PVT Simmons KIA OIF lll&V, they died for you, honor them)
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To: rabscuttle385
Many people don't seem to understand that the neocons come from both sides of Republican spectrum, Social conservatives and social Liberals (RINOs) -- but the one and ONLY THING that they agree on is Liberal military Interventionism. Neocons can disagree on domestic social policy all they want, but an aggressive, militaristic foreign policy is the "glue" that binds these Social Conservatives and Social Liberals together, even if it is not a Conservative foreign policy at all.

This author also wrote an interesting piece on why Neocons mostly agree with Obama's strategy for Iraq: "Yes, Obama Is A Liberal Internationalist"

"Whenever Obama reminds us that he is a hawkish liberal internationalist, neoconservatives and hawks gasp in amazement (and try to take credit) and many of his supporters express dismay at the “betrayal” they have experienced. It is understandable why some neoconservatives would want to treat Obama’s liberal internationalism as a result of “going neocon,” because as long as Democratic leaders adhere to something close to a pre-1968/post-1992 liberal internationalist foreign policy neoconservatism has no reason to exist, except perhaps as the distorted echo of liberal internationalism that it has always been."

8 posted on 12/22/2009 6:42:07 PM PST by Bokababe (Save Christian Kosovo! http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: FastCoyote
"There are only two options, win the war or lose it"

Agree completely. But to win that war, you have to decide what "winning looks like" before you go in, in order to take steps to achieve it. And you have to be realistic about your goals based on the true situation is on the ground -- not what you'd like it to be.

The fact is that we have never defined what "winning" looks like in any sort of realistic and consistent way for Afghanistan. Is it "killing bin Laden"? Is it "wiping out "al Qaeda"? Is it "wiping out the Taliban"? The fact is that one even talks about getting bin Laden anymore. Al Qaeda just gets up and moves on to destabilizing the next country, and the next country until our military forces are tuckered out following them around. Wiping out the Taliban is unrealistic. As much as being a woman, I'd like to see the Taliban's head on a plate, I have to agree with Chuck DeVore. The best we can do is to show the Taliban that it is unprofitable to support al Qaeda, nothing more.

9 posted on 12/22/2009 7:00:12 PM PST by Bokababe (Save Christian Kosovo! http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: rabscuttle385

bump


10 posted on 12/22/2009 7:16:14 PM PST by Ben Ficklin
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Justin Raimondo

Ah yes, the good old days.. watching Justin and antiwar.com make nancy-boy idiots of themselves.

11 posted on 12/22/2009 8:10:38 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: rabscuttle385; Abathar; Abcdefg; Abram; Abundy; akatel; albertp; AlexandriaDuke; Alexander Rubin; ..



Libertarian ping! Click here to get added or here to be removed or post a message here!
View past Libertarian pings here
12 posted on 12/23/2009 6:09:31 AM PST by bamahead (Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master. -- Sallust)
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To: rabscuttle385

“.Most of what Frum has been doing for the last several years and the purpose of his website have been to move the GOP and the movement to the left on most domestic policies.”

Bingo!


13 posted on 12/23/2009 6:11:23 AM PST by stephenjohnbanker (Support our troops, and vote out the RINO's!)
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To: stephenjohnbanker

Neo-cons are liberals.


14 posted on 12/23/2009 6:14:07 AM PST by stephenjohnbanker (Support our troops, and vote out the RINO's!)
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To: rabscuttle385; bamahead; socialismisinsidious; Candor7; patriot08; SatinDoll; firebrand; ...
The posted article is a very accurate analysis.

I've seen David Frum in person and know others that know him quite well. His problem seems to be that he is too full of himself, as demonstrated by his clumsy attempts to assert himself as a GOP party leader and pundit. The fact is that Frum's only political credential worth anything at all is his year or two as a GWB White House speechwriter, during which time he coined the term "Axis of Evil."

He is a most definitely a RINO, and a pessimistic one at that. His prescriptions for GOP revival by movement toward the "center" are not realistic - especially considering the current political climate - and his books have met with very little enthusiasm.

15 posted on 12/23/2009 7:44:41 AM PST by justiceseeker93
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To: stephenjohnbanker; All
Neo-cons are liberals.

I don't know how you can make such a broad, sweeping statement. Neo-cons are pretty much defined by their foreign policy preferences, and would be all over the map in terms of domestic issues.

16 posted on 12/23/2009 7:49:16 AM PST by justiceseeker93
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To: stephenjohnbanker

That’s a pretty broad statement.

I suppose it depends on how one defines “neo-con.”


17 posted on 12/23/2009 8:23:33 AM PST by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: rabscuttle385

Oh, for the love of Pete!!! Justin Raimondo??? Are you freaking kidding me?????


18 posted on 12/23/2009 8:24:56 AM PST by MestaMachine (Your CORE is the path you walk. RINOs don't walk paths, they build roads to nowhere..)
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To: stephenjohnbanker

Neo-liberals are cons. There I fixed it.


19 posted on 12/23/2009 8:27:15 AM PST by MestaMachine (Your CORE is the path you walk. RINOs don't walk paths, they build roads to nowhere..)
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To: justiceseeker93

The more he doesn’t get it, the more he doesn’t it. Circular file. I don’t even pay attention to this crap any more.


20 posted on 12/23/2009 8:30:20 AM PST by MestaMachine (Your CORE is the path you walk. RINOs don't walk paths, they build roads to nowhere..)
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To: rabscuttle385; Condor51
There he goes again-----Frum's full-time occupation is being an ****ole. BTW, there's a reward out for anyone who can determine what Frum and the rest of the pukeneos actually do for a living-----with a bonus if you can find out who signs their paychecks.

No one has yet figured out if the pukeneoes have any visible means of support...... other than infiltrating the US government, putting out agit-prop, incessantly pontificating on foreign policy issues, squatting in the Repub Party, and kicking us so/cons to the curb .

Oh wait---I just remembered (snicker)...... Punkneo Perle IS going into the oil business in Iraq. Nice that US tax dollars and the blood of young Americans made the region safe for Perle's business ambitions, wasn't it?

Pukeneos get paid handsomely to squat in the Repub Party, kicking so/cons to the curb, hoping to destroy it from within. (That ain't happening.)

========================================================

And now--The Winner of the 2008 Best Election Night Performance Award in the category of:
"Neos Know Nothing About this Republican Disaster."


Smirkin' Billy Kristol (McCain's campaign mastermind)

"Thank you very much. But I could not have done it without the help of all the
punkeos--David Frum, Michael Gerson, David Brooks, Richard Perle, and my Dearest Daddy."

"Sniffle---my Dearest departed Daddy (RINO Giuliani's foreign policy advisor)
wrote: "The historical task and political purpose of neoconservatism is
to convert the Republican Party and American conservatism in general,
against their respective wills, into a new kind of conservative politics suitable
to governing a modern democracy."

"Sob."

"I especially want to thank punkneo Douglas Feith for faking documents on his
home computer so we punkneos could dupe the president."

"Without Doug we would not have been able to transfer trillions of US dollars
into the Mideast, into the pockets of war profiteers, which enabled Richard Perle
to startup an oil business in Iraq with his cut."

Kristol smirked: "Making Iraq safe for Perle's oil business with US tax dollars was truly a noble punkneo effort."

==============================================

AFTERTHOUGHTS The 2008 political entrail readings showed the crucial conservative base stayed home. Too bad the pukes "forget" to tell McC that would be one outcome of the punkneo-RINO bi-partisanship. Be aware that many senior neocons are rank opportunists who squatted in the Repub Party for their selfish stealth purposes-----they are actually former Trotskyites that flew the coop when Stalin executed their hero.

AS FREEPER TADSLOS COGENTLY POSTED : "People forget that candy-ass Kristol, and his crony, metro-sexual Brooks are the original makeover artists for McCain post-2000. They are McC's original groomers and media switch operators.....obsessed with religious cleansing of the party. Kristol at his most smirkiest---urging McCain to fire his 2008 staff, to start all over at the 11th hour, as McC's numbers tanked. Shows how how ill-conceived, advised, equipped and poorly managed McC's campaign was. But then, what else to expect from a Republican candidate made up of neopunks Kristol and Brooks."

Watching Kristol smirking and squirming in his Fox seat election night as McC lost was a consolation prize to this abortion of a losing 2008 election cycle.

=================================================

FRUM'S STUCK ON STUPID Frum endlessly argues that the GOP is a rump party and the only way for it to survive is to religiously cleanse the party and kick so/cons to the curb.

21 posted on 12/23/2009 8:39:23 AM PST by Liz
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To: justiceseeker93
Frum's only political credential worth anything is his brief time as a GWB White House speechwriter. His prescriptions for GOP revival by movement toward the "center" are not realistic - especially considering the current political climate - and his books have met with very little enthusiasm.

No one has yet figured out if the pukeneoes have any visible means of support...... other than infiltrating the US government, putting out agit-prop, incessantly pontificating on foreign policy issues, squatting in, and religiously cleansing the Repub Party, and kicking so/cons to the curb .

Oh wait---I just remembered (snicker)...... Punkneo Perle IS going into the oil business in Iraq. Nice that US tax dollars and the blood of young Americans made the region safe for Perle's business ambitions, wasn't it?

Pukeneos do get paid handsomely to squat in the Repub Party hoping to destroy it from within. (That ain't happening.)

Frum's main occupation is being an ****ole.

22 posted on 12/23/2009 8:49:09 AM PST by Liz
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To: Liz
*** "I especially want to thank punkneo Douglas Feith for faking documents on his home computer so we punkneos could dupe the president." ... "Without Doug we would not have been able to transfer trillions of US dollars into the Mideast, into the pockets of war profiteers, which enabled Richard Perle to startup an oil business in Iraq with his cut." ***

Doug Feith should be sitting in a Federal Prison. With Richard Perle as his cell mate.

So if Barry and Eric Holder want to go after Bush Admin officials for 'criminal actions', he should start with those two. The evidence against them is overwhelming and the case is a slam dunk. Condi's testimony alone against Doug Feith would put him away for 20 years. Call her as a 'Hostile Witness' and its game over.

If Feith did forge all those documents, and Perle continuously lie to Rummy, I doubt there would have been an Iraq War. Saddam's UN Violations alone weren't enough 'evidence' to warrant the invasion and the Security Counsel never would have passed resolution 1441.

23 posted on 12/23/2009 9:25:26 AM PST by Condor51 (The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits)
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To: Condor51
oops typo
If Feith did forge all those documents'
should be
If Feith didn't forge ...

24 posted on 12/23/2009 9:33:22 AM PST by Condor51 (The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits)
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To: Condor51; Liz

BUMP


25 posted on 12/23/2009 9:47:22 AM PST by stephenjohnbanker (Support our troops, and vote out the RINO's!)
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To: Condor51; stephenjohnbanker
Feith should be sitting in a Federal Prison w/ Richard Perle as his cell mate. So if Barry and Eric Holder want to go after Bush Admin officials for 'criminal actions', he should start with those two. The evidence against them is overwhelming and the case is a slam dunk.

We can dream-----problem is Rahm is one of "them" (in the closet for now). But he may be ready to "come out" what with the economic situation in Mideast hellholes.

One of Emanuel's proudest moments during his tenure in the Clinton admin was when he choreographed the famous handshake between Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and PLO leader Yasser Arafat, in the 1993 Rose Garden signing ceremony after the Oslo Peace Accords.

This event touched Emanuel's political sensibilities due to his lfelong personal ties to Israel. Course, no one knows how Emanuel felt when, predictably, war broke out between the "peace partners" shortly thereafter..

Mmmmmmm........can't wait to see Ohaha and Nutandyahoo in $2500 Armani suits on the White House lawn signing yet another (gag) "$500 billion peace accord".......with Rahm beaming in the bgrnd, waiting for his cut.

26 posted on 12/23/2009 10:56:56 AM PST by Liz
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To: Liz
Nice that US tax dollars and the blood of young Americans made the region safe for Perle's business ambitions, wasn't it.

I'm sorry, Liz, but that's unfair to Perle, just as the 'Rats' continuous harping on Halliburton was unfair to Dick Cheney.

I don't see the hypocrisy involved in an American official vigorously supporting the effort to overthrow the Saddam regime in Iraq, and then taking advantage of less despotic new order there to pursue a new business venture. If a Dummycrat who opposed the Bush Iraq strategy were to do something similar to that in the new Iraq, we would and should rightfully roast him for for it.

27 posted on 12/23/2009 1:47:47 PM PST by justiceseeker93
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To: justiceseeker93; Condor51; stephenjohnbanker
That's unfair to Perle..........I don't see the hypocrisy involved in an American official vigorously supporting the Iraq (invasion), and then taking advantage of less despotic new order there to pursue a new business venture.

My comments "unfair" to Perle? New Order? Where?

In your case, being both glib AND gullible is a dangerous combination.

There are no words to describe the utter vacuity of your comments.

28 posted on 12/23/2009 3:49:15 PM PST by Liz
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To: Liz

“That’s unfair to Perle..........I don’t see the hypocrisy involved in an American official vigorously supporting the Iraq (invasion), and then taking advantage of less despotic new order there to pursue a new business venture.”

Algore: “Are you against free enterprise?”

When questioned about his partial ownership of 3 companies set up to capitalize on global warming/cap n trade Note the irony?? ;-)


29 posted on 12/23/2009 4:09:49 PM PST by stephenjohnbanker (Support our troops, and vote out the RINO's!)
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To: stephenjohnbanker; Condor51
When questioned about his partial ownership of 3 companies set up to capitalize on global warming/cap n trade.....Algore replies: “Are you against free enterprise?” ....... Note the irony??

N-i-c-e example. Cannot miss the irony.

I also observed Gore salivating when he contemplated profits on his plans to capitalize on global warming/cap n trade.

Wish we had a pic of Perle contemplating his oil profits---jerk is probably laughing up his sleeve.

30 posted on 12/23/2009 4:36:14 PM PST by Liz
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To: justiceseeker93; AdmSmith; Berosus; bigheadfred; Convert from ECUSA; dervish; ...

Thanks justiceseeker93.


31 posted on 12/23/2009 4:42:29 PM PST by SunkenCiv (My Sunday Feeling is that Nothing is easy. Goes for the rest of the week too.)
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To: Liz

“Wish we had a pic of Perle contemplating his oil profits-—jerk is probably laughing up his sleeve. “

The neo-cons all scream for our young sons and daughters to go fight overseas. Can you name one prominent one who either fought himself let their kids fight overseas ?


32 posted on 12/23/2009 5:02:26 PM PST by stephenjohnbanker (Support our troops, and vote out the RINO's!)
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To: stephenjohnbanker

OR let their kids fight overseas....lol


33 posted on 12/23/2009 5:03:36 PM PST by stephenjohnbanker (Support our troops, and vote out the RINO's!)
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To: Liz
OK, I retract the phrase "new order" in referring to the current regime and situation in Iraq. It was a poor choice of words and I can see that it can lead to misunderstandings. Still, the current status of Iraq is much better than the status of Iraq under Saddam from the point of view of the US as well as the entire Western world, and I think that a large majority here will stipulate to that.

Many Americans and some foreigners played a positive role in the positive regime change in Iraq, and Perle was among them. That's all I'm crediting him for. And, since conditions have improved there due to the American effort (with a relatively small amount of assistance from the Brits and other allies), I see nothing preposterous for Perle to do this oil thing, unless you can show me that he is engaging in some form of blatantly corrupt activity.

34 posted on 12/23/2009 5:23:10 PM PST by justiceseeker93
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To: justiceseeker93; stephenjohnbanker
justiceseeker93: " I see nothing preposterous for Perle to do this oil thing, unless you can show me that he is engaging in some form of blatantly corrupt activity."

You forgot to add, "Duh."

35 posted on 12/23/2009 11:21:12 PM PST by Liz
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To: rabscuttle385

The author’s description of tea partiers doesn’t match any I’ve ever met.


36 posted on 12/23/2009 11:32:43 PM PST by piasa (Attitude adjustments offered here free of charge)
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To: stephenjohnbanker
The neo-cons all scream for our young sons and daughters to fight overseas. Can you name one prominent one who either fought himself or let their kids fight overseas?

They don't have time to fight (/snic).

They're too busy (a) infiltrating the US government, (2) putting out agit-prop, (3) incessantly pontificating and proselytizing foreign policy issues, (4) religiously cleansing the Repub party, and kicking so/cons to the curb.

37 posted on 12/23/2009 11:33:31 PM PST by Liz
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