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Radio Host Delilah Pulls Kids from Crosspoint Academy, Claiming School Teaches Veiled Mormonism
Kitsap Sun ^ | Dec. 25, 2009 | Marietta Nelson

Posted on 12/26/2009 1:06:10 PM PST by Colofornian

CHICO —

Changes in the curriculum at Crosspoint Academy have some parents, including prominent radio host Delilah Rene Luke, concerned the private Christian school in Chico is straying from its biblical focus.

But school leaders defend the changes, saying the new materials will grow the school’s 290 students into the next generation of Christian leaders.

“The idea that Crosspoint is still fundamentally rooted in strong Christian values and delivers a curriculum with a Christian perspective in mind has not changed and that has never changed in this process,” said Eric Rasmussen, superintendent of schools for Crista, the Christian ministry organization that owns Crosspoint.

The school, formerly known as King’s West, announced this fall that it had a new plan for a curriculum focused on leadership and on five pillars: critical thinking, collaboration, creativity, contemplation and cultural competency. Much of the work has been based on “The Leader In Me,” a program for students from Stephen Covey, author of “The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People.”

The emphasis on Covey’s work is what most concerns Delilah. She recently disenrolled three of her children from Crosspoint.

“I would like to say that I am merely ‘deeply concerned’ about a recent addition to the school’s teaching philosophy, but instead, I am forced to admit I am actually HORRIFIED by the recent addition of a book by Mormon author Steven (sic) Covey,” she wrote in a Nov. 24 open letter to Crosspoint parents.

Further, she wrote that she believes in freedom of religion and does not object to Mormon beliefs or the yoga-type, Eastern religion activities Covey advocates. She said in a recent interview, however, that the materials don’t belong in a Christian school.

“It’s not about being intolerant. It’s about being true to my faith,” she said. “I don’t have a problem with Stephen Covey and businesses that use it. I don’t have any problem with people who want to sign up for yoga classes or attend the church of Satan if they want to. That’s their right. But I can’t imagine someone paying money to send their kids to Brigham Young University so they can get a good basis in Mormon faith and then having their kid come home and saying his new teacher was a Catholic priest teaching the Apocrypha.”

After her letter circulated, Delilah held an informational meeting in Port Orchard for Crosspoint parents. About 30 attended. She also received many supportive e-mails. But the parents contacted by e-mail by the Kitsap Sun about the controversy either declined to be interviewed or did not respond.

Covey has denied in recent years that his leadership materials are repackaged Mormonism. But Delilah is concerned that the leadership materials introduce Mormon tenets in a way that is palatable to non-Mormons.

“He intends to indoctrinate the world with his theology by wiring it in a way that people can accept,” she said.

Delilah questioned whether Crista and Crosspoint leaders were aware of Covey’s beliefs before they adopted the materials. But Rasmussen said the bigger question is whether Crista schools only take materials from Christian publishers. The schools draw from a wide variety of materials and “we will continue to seek and find the best resources and put them in the hands of outstanding Christian educators,” he added.

Additionally, Rasmussen said teaching at Crosspoint goes well beyond “The Leader In Me” to focus on the five pillars. For example, he said, the core value of contemplation means to be “people of reflection.”

“From a Christian standpoint, that means kids would meditate on their faith and the significance of biblical truth in their life, or they would read and think contemplatively about great literature.”

“We believe leaders do these core things, that kids should be contemplative in life and think about next step, about what God has in store and in place for them.”

Delilah said smaller issues have led her to believe Crosspoint is trying to rebrand itself to attract families familiar and comfortable with Covey, but not perhaps with Christianity. A plaque with the Ten Commandments was recently moved from a prominent spot in the school’s main hallway to a not-so-prominent classroom. A “Seven Habits” poster advocating meditation was put up at Crosspoint, with a Bible verse taped to it “as if to make Eastern religion acceptable to the Christian,” Delilah wrote in her Nov. 24 letter.

“They even changed the school’s name to take the Lord’s name out,” she said.

Further, school leaders did not properly inform parents of the changes until the beginning of this school year, giving them little time to understand or react, she said.

But Rasmussen said the school’s changes are not about rebranding, rather it’s trying to improve on past success in academics and extracurriculars.

“We’re thrilled in terms of where we’re going and moving forward to make this great school better to be really intentionally focused,” he said. “We see the need in terms of this world for good intentional Christian leaders who will lead in their churches and their communities and their homes.”


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: antimormonthread; christianschools; covey; curricula; delilah; education; lds; mormon; paranoidparents; parnoidchristians
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From the article: Delilah questioned whether Crista and Crosspoint leaders were aware of Covey’s beliefs before they adopted the materials.

See link below.

From the article; Covey has denied in recent years that his leadership materials are repackaged Mormonism.

Oh, no? See:

A Closer Look at Stephen Covey and His 7 Habits - LDS

From the article: She said in a recent interview, however, that the materials don’t belong in a Christian school. “It’s not about being intolerant. It’s about being true to my faith,” she said. “I don’t have a problem with Stephen Covey and businesses that use it. I don’t have any problem with people who want to sign up for yoga classes or attend the church of Satan if they want to. That’s their right. But I can’t imagine someone paying money to send their kids to Brigham Young University so they can get a good basis in Mormon faith and then having their kid come home and saying his new teacher was a Catholic priest teaching the Apocrypha.”

1 posted on 12/26/2009 1:06:10 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: All
Now Mormons are on the attack of Delilah over this...all while one of them claims he doesn't want them to go on the attack...just 'cause she's exercise oversight of her kids' education. (Last time I look, 'twas a Free Republic re: exercising parental educational rights...but not to Deseret Times Mormon columnist Joel Campbell).

The way the Lds columnist would have it, all Christian parents should have their kids subjected to veiled Mormonism in their so-called "Christian" schools...'cause if they won't, then Campbell pulls out the "B" label ("bigot) & hurls it at...
...Delilah...
...Focus on the Family (compared Delilah's actions to Focus on the Family withdrawing an article on Glenn Beck late last year)...
...and anybody objecting to any voter-citizen not wanting a "god-in-embryo" in the White House (Romney)...
...all the while having the gall to claim, Let's not go on the attack of Delilah"...
...If calling people "bigots" is not attacking -- showing his own lack of tolerance over parents' educational decisions-- then what is?

2 posted on 12/26/2009 1:17:42 PM PST by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it!)
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To: Colofornian
Right from the horse's mouth:

A Closer Look At The 7 Habits of a Highly Successful Mormon: Stephen R. Covey

Yet, 7 Habits contains many of the same principles, anecdotes, and illustrations found in one of Covey’s earlier books, The Divine Center. This book was written by Covey to promote Mormon beliefs and show that any spiritual model other than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) is a false "map" that limits the personal development of its followers.

Covey explains in The Divine Center that he has discovered how to communicate Mormon truths to non-Mormons by simply changing his vocabulary. He writes, " I have found in speaking to various non-LDS groups in different cultures that we can teach and testify of many gospel principles if we are careful in selecting words which carry our meaning but come from their experience and frame of mind." [Divine Center, p. 240.]


3 posted on 12/26/2009 1:19:06 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (Obamacare: Old folks don't deserve healthcare. They use up too many carbon credits just breathing.)
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To: All
Many of the Covey principles of "7 Habits of Highly Effective People" were found in Covey's earlier Mormonized "The Divine Center."

Let's take a brief look at Covey's beliefs:

From the Southern Baptist article I linked to in post #1: Covey’s beliefs about salvation are also uniquely Mormon. He warns his readers against seeking “any kind of ‘special’ relationship” with Jesus Christ. [Divine Center, pp. 67-68.] He writes, “The Christ-only approach is inappropriate for Latter-day Saints and for this book.”

Well, on this, Covey "brothers" Lds apostle Bruce R. McConkie, who lectured BYU students in a devo there in the early 1980s NOT to seek a special relationship with Jesus Christ.

What's quite interesting is there's four verses in the Book of Mormon which talk about Book of Mormonites worshiping the Mormon jesus...I mean, some of them are all-out worship. Yet McConkie said, "No" not to worship Christ (directly).

There's also a whole chapter in the Book of Mormon about praying directly to Jesus (3 Nephi 19). Yet, once again, those behind the scenes of Mormon doctrine ensured that they cautioned their followers NOT to pray directly to Jesus.

Don't seek any kind of special relationship with JC?
Don't directly worship JC?
Don't directly pray to JC?
(Even though both the Bible AND Book of Mormon tells you to?)
Can you say "anti-Jesus" as in "anti-Christ?"

4 posted on 12/26/2009 1:23:00 PM PST by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it!)
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To: greyfoxx39; All
From the Southern Baptist article I linked to in post #1: Covey warns his readers against privately interpreting scripture. Rather he advocates that they “look to the present prophet and Church (LDS) leaders and official Church policies for the manifestation of the Lord’s will and interpretations.” [Divine Center, p. 199.] He also writes, “The inspired words of living prophets may be of greater worth to us than the words of the dead prophets. Their words also can be scripture.” [Divine Center, p. 199.]

(Yeah, yeah, yeah...whenever we quote a Mormon "prophet" saying something embarrassing, we hear from somebody Lds claiming, "Well, that's not canon...That's not 'scripture' "scripture"...it's only verbal 'scripture' of the type Brother Brigham talked about ... saying he never sent out a corrected sermon that he couldn't call 'scripture'"...Boy, it sure becomes confusing on all the suddenly-inserted new standards that are introduced into conversations mid-sentence)

5 posted on 12/26/2009 1:25:05 PM PST by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it!)
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To: Colofornian

Hmmmm, which of these seven principle are unChristian:

The Seven Habits of Covey are:
1. Be proactive. This is the ability to control one’s environment, rather than have it control you, as is so often the case. Managers need to control their own environment, using self-determination and the power to respond to various circumstances.
2. Begin with the end in mind. This means that the manager needs to be able to see the desired outcome and concentrate on activities which help in achieving that end.
3. Put first things first. Managers need to personally manage themselves and implement activities which aim to achieve the second habit – looking to the desired outcome. Covey says that habit 2. is the first, or mental creation; habit 3 is the second, or physical creation.
4. Think win-win. This is the most important aspect of interpersonal leadership because most achievements are based on cooperative effort, therefore the aim needs to be win–win solutions for all.
5. Seek first to understand and then to be understood. By developing and maintaining positive relationships through good communications, the manager can be understood, and can understand the subordinates.
6. Synergize. This is the habit of creative cooperation - the principle that collaboration often achieves more than could be achieved by individuals working independently towards attaining a purpose.
7. Sharpen the saw. Learning from previous experience and encouraging others to do the same. Covey sees development as one of the most important aspects in being able to cope with challenges and aspire to higher levels of ability.

From what I can see of the many of the fine “true” Christians I have had the privilege to chat with on the forum, it must be number 5, but that is only what I can see from how they behave. I could be wrong.

So, which of those seven principles is unChristian?


6 posted on 12/26/2009 1:35:01 PM PST by urroner
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To: greyfoxx39; All; Utah Binger; urroner
From the Southern Baptist article linked to post #1: One of the things that Covey believes evangelical churches have gotten wrong is the doctrine of the Trinity which he calls an “apostate doctrine.” He claims that the doctrine of the Trinity has “lead people to believe that we are a creation of God rather than his literal offspring.” [Divine Center, p. 82.] Covey believes that the maps (paradigms) used by most people are false because of apostasy.

What usually gets me are defenders of Mormonism who aren't Mormon but are either members of a church -- or their parents were. And yet they don't seem to comprehend that not only Covey, but every true believing Mormon sees every other church & their members as consisting of "apostates." Many somehow understand that Islam defines Christians as "infidels," but they don't quite comprehend that Lds label us in exactly the same way!

So, the "irony" here is that Crosspoint Academy, which I assume is "Christian" and trinitarian, uses an author who is anti-trinitarian (and therefore anti-Christian)! And it's called "Crosspoint" even though their curricula is based upon Mormons like Covey who militate vs. the cross??? (More irony)

And Mormon columnists like Joel Campbell -- who are paid by the LDS HQ -- call Delilah "irrational" just 'cause she "doesn't understand Mormons are Christians?". If Campbell hurls this at Delilah and others who refuse to call Romney a "Christian," then what does that equate to for the LDS Church HQ's view of all others who refuse to bow to their edicts that they be recognized as "Christians?"

(More labels like "irrational...bigots" await them, too)

Strange. Lds "prophets" like Hinckley fumed at the fLDS being labeled as "Mormon" and on the Larry King refused to even recognize their very existence. ("No such thing" was his summation) So Mormons from the top-down want to define Mormonism but get all huffy when any boundaries are set for Christianity.

7 posted on 12/26/2009 1:36:48 PM PST by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it!)
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To: Colofornian

Wasn’t that a Mormom who tried to blow up that airliner in Detroit? Oh no, wait, that was a Muslim wasn’t it. Never mind.


8 posted on 12/26/2009 1:54:56 PM PST by centurion316
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To: centurion316
Wasn’t that a Mormom who tried to blow up that airliner in Detroit? Oh no, wait, that was a Muslim wasn’t it. Never mind.

Wasn't the orginal 9/11 terrorist attack in our country (Sept. 11, 1857) committed by the hands of Muslims? Where about 120 children aged 8 & up along with their unarmed mothers & fathers were executed at point blank range? Oh no, wait, that was Mormons, Mormon leaders and Mormons-dressed-up-as-Native Americans wasn't it? Never mind...we all may want to watch the movie, "September Dawn" though during these holidays as a history refresher for us all.

9 posted on 12/26/2009 2:05:58 PM PST by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it!)
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To: urroner; All; greyfoxx39; centurion316
So, which of those seven principles is unChristian?

Well's let's look at "another seven principles" of Stephen Covey which are indeed unChristian, courtesy of piecing together Bill Gordon of the Southern Baptist North American Mission Board 9here is Bill's contact information: http://sub.namb.net/staff/StaffView.asp?CONTACTID_HMB=00000096)

(I guess we can call these "The Seven Principles of Highly Effective Heretics"...Note: "The Divine Center" sourced is Covey's earlier book)

1.[LDS Church is] “literally God’s church and the President of the Church is truly God’s prophet.” [Divine Center, p. 224] Bill Gordon's summation of Divine Center, p. 225: "Covey believes that those who oppose the LDS prophet are opposing the Lord and that they are guided by an evil spirit."
2.‘As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may become.’ [couplet by Lds "prophet" Lorenzo Snow as cited in Divine Center, 81.] Bill Gordon's summation of Divine Center, pp. 164-166: "Covey’s belief that people have a limitless potential is derived from the Mormon doctrine that people are gods in embryo."
3. Gordon's summary of Divine Center, p. 246: "Following the correct map found in the LDS Church 'liberates man' and 'releases his divine potentialities.'"
4. Covey is anti-Christ in that he warns his readers against seeking “any kind of ‘special’ relationship” with Jesus Christ. [Divine Center, pp. 67-68.] “The Christ-only approach is inappropriate for Latter-day Saints and for this book.” [Divine Center, p. 83.]
5. Gordon's summation of Divine Center, p. 271: "He even claims that one of Satan’s lies to the world is that all God wants us to do is receive Christ Jesus through faith."
6. Gordon's summation of Divine Center, p. 15: "He also argues that the beliefs of traditional Christianity are 'false maps ... in the form of beliefs or doctrines or creeds.'" Covey refers to Mormon scripture (Joseph Smith — History 1:19) to prove that the beliefs of evangelical churches are 'an abomination in the sight of God.'
7. Gordon's summation of Divine Center, p. 68: "Covey labels the evangelical doctrine of salvation by grace alone a 'false concept' and an 'apostate doctrine.'"

10 posted on 12/26/2009 2:08:08 PM PST by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it!)
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To: Colofornian
I can't understand why Latter Day Saints would be disturbed by this woman (I've never heard of her) pulling her child from the school. She doesn't like the curriculum. I homeschool because I don't like what the Publik Skool teaches.
11 posted on 12/26/2009 2:08:08 PM PST by FourPeas (Why does Professor Presbury's wolfhound, Roy, endeavour to bite him?)
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To: urroner

I have been through the 7 habits, and found them to be very useful in the management of people. I found nothing theological about it, it is mostly philosophical. I will admit, though, several participants claimed to see veiled Mormonism— even in enlightened California. Delilah has every right to send her children to any school she likes, but I see nothing wrong with the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. I was not familiar with a version aimed specifically at Mormons, although Covey has extended his concept to many different areas....

hh


12 posted on 12/26/2009 2:08:48 PM PST by hoosier hick (Note to RINOs: We need a choice, not an echo....Barry Goldwater)
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To: Colofornian

I think you would find Delilah more willing to have Muslim principles taught to her children. I have heard enough of her program to believe she would not want to be viewed as anti-Muslim....

hh


13 posted on 12/26/2009 2:10:41 PM PST by hoosier hick (Note to RINOs: We need a choice, not an echo....Barry Goldwater)
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To: Colofornian

Well, I happen to know some about Mountain Meadows, since the Fanchers are relations. Things were pretty nasty on the Kansas-Missouri border around that time too.

And you help make my point. I know many Mormons and have found them to be wonderful people who lead exemplary lives. They are welcome as my friends and neighbors anytime, anywhere. As for those who spew hatred and bigotry towards Mormons without respite on this site, stay away from me. I do not care to know you or have anything to do with you.


14 posted on 12/26/2009 2:11:10 PM PST by centurion316
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To: centurion316
As for those who spew hatred and bigotry towards Mormons without respite on this site, stay away from me.

Well, nobody handcuffed you & forced you to come into this thread. But since you entered it, I'd be interested in your take of Covey's points 6 & 7 as found on post #10:

Gordon's summation of Divine Center, p. 15: "He also argues that the beliefs of traditional Christianity are 'false maps ... in the form of beliefs or doctrines or creeds.'" Covey refers to Mormon scripture (Joseph Smith — History 1:19) to prove that the beliefs of evangelical churches are 'an abomination in the sight of God.' 7. Gordon's summation of Divine Center, p. 68: "Covey labels the evangelical doctrine of salvation by grace alone a 'false concept' and an 'apostate doctrine.'"

So, tell us...since Covey calls Christians' beliefs to be "false maps" and references Mormon Scripture Joseph Smith -- History 1:19 which calls 100% of Christian creeds to "an abomination in the sight of God" and 100% of Christian professors to be "corrupt" -- does that by your religious book also equate to Covey & other Mormons who believe Joseph Smith's first vision recorded in 1:19 to be guilty of "hatred and bigotry"...or, are you always this inconsistent in your assessments?

And do not Christians have a right -- when a Muslim calls us an "infidel" or a Mormon calls us an "apostate" -- to defend and "contend for the faith once delivered to the saints" (Jude 3)...or do you only read John 3:16 and passages that agree with that line and avoid passsages like Jude 3?

15 posted on 12/26/2009 2:23:17 PM PST by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it!)
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To: Colofornian

No thanks, I’ll stick to Muslim bashing and let you nutters have Mormon bashing all to yourselves.


16 posted on 12/26/2009 2:27:38 PM PST by centurion316
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To: centurion316; colorcountry; Colofornian; reaganaut
I know many Mormons and have found them to be wonderful people who lead exemplary lives. They are welcome as my friends and neighbors anytime, anywhere. As for those who spew hatred and bigotry towards Mormons without respite on this site, stay away from me. I do not care to know you or have anything to do with you.

Well, I grew up mormon, have lived amongst them in several areas and have found that they are no better or worse than any other group of people.

Some were wonderful honest people, but I personally knew mormon drunks, check-kiters, thieves and had a mormon pedophile teacher when I was 10-11. These all were mormon priesthood holders and showed up on the the front pew on Sunday.

As for those who spew hatred and bigotry towards ANTI-Mormons without respite on this site, stay away from me.

As Colofornian said, if you do not care to know us, just don't click on these threads.

17 posted on 12/26/2009 2:35:00 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (Obamacare: Old folks don't deserve healthcare. They use up too many carbon credits just breathing.)
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To: urroner

More importantly, there is nothing there that IS Christian in princple.

Fact is God runs my life. I can do the foot work but I cannot guarantee the results. God’s ways are NOT my ways. I am to seek His guidance and direction in my life but the ‘end’ is not my goal. My goal on a daily basis is to be of maximum service to God and my fellows. Covey’s habits do not reflect that.


18 posted on 12/26/2009 2:50:10 PM PST by the long march
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To: the long march

So, which of the seven principles are unchristian?

I once worked with a saved Christian who kept walking around the office saying that God was his co-pilot, but, while that could have been true, we also found out that even though he was married, he had a little dish off to the side. It seems that the devil was the stewardess.

I know several people who went to prison for violent crimes and, while in prison, they “found” Jesus. They told everybody they had found Jesus. They even went to a couple of local churches and claimed before one and all they had found Jesus. Within a short time, one or two years, they were back in prison for committing some pretty violent crimes.

So, when I hear people that I don’t know or trust say things like “God runs my life,” “I have found Jesus,” or “God is my co-pilot,” those things are meaningless to me.


19 posted on 12/26/2009 3:33:22 PM PST by urroner
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To: Colofornian

Geeze, not a good week for Mormons.


20 posted on 12/26/2009 4:03:19 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: centurion316; Colofornian

That was a weak hit and run.

Is yellow your favorite color to wear or the road you travel?

Come’on back the wood pile and let’s exchange thoughts. Mormons are fine people but doctrinaly we are at odds and they truly believe they are superior in their relation to God while all others are apostates.

They, in fact, start from that premise. So it is not us casting the first stone. We are in fact showing others the premise of truth and that your only spiritual relationship, of consequence, is with Jesus Christ.


21 posted on 12/26/2009 4:09:28 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: Vendome

I prefer to exchange thoughts with people who wish to explain their own religious views and preferences. As an unchurched Episcopalian, I have plenty of grist for the mill about the current state of the Episcopal Church.

But, those who simply wish to diss someone else’s religion, no thanks, I have better things to do with my time.


22 posted on 12/26/2009 4:13:59 PM PST by centurion316
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To: centurion316

Well you should been on some of these earlier in the week. Most of the posters here, myself included, had some very good discussions in doctrine.

I learned a lot even about Protestant and Episcopalians.

Sometimes these threads take a while to get off the ground.

Post on.


23 posted on 12/26/2009 4:18:29 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: greyfoxx39

I have found in speaking to various non-LDS groups in different cultures that we can teach and testify of many gospel principles if we are careful in selecting words which carry our meaning but come from their experience and frame of mind.”

- - - - - - -

IOW, “Lying for the Lord”.


24 posted on 12/26/2009 4:21:08 PM PST by reaganaut (When we FACE UP to the Majesty of God, we will find ourselves FACE DOWN in Worship" - Matt Redman)
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To: centurion316

See? Now reaganut has shown up here and will be glad to demonstrate the true word of God without telling anyone they are wrong but instead misled or decieve by a people who one day hope to ascend to the status of god.

The problem with their premise on this issue is it is wholly heretical and well,... not good.

For I am a jealous God

For thou shalt have no other gods before me

Now if God wasn’t keen on ‘ole Belzebub’s plans, what makes anyone think they can ever achieve parity with God?

It seems like he doesn’t care for competitors.

And yet Mormonism states that God was once man and as such, man can become God.

So it makes me ask, where are the Mormon gods that ascended from man and why don’t they reveal themselves?

When do you become a God and on what premise is your gamesmanship improved? Who is the scorekeeper and aribiter of awarding this supreme status.

Can’t be my God, he doesn’t play well others who might one day deem themselves equal.

If God is the Alpha, meaning he existed before anything and the Omega, meaning the end of all things, how can we ever hope catch up to God?


25 posted on 12/26/2009 4:30:30 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: Vendome

Can you direct me to the thread where people spoke of their different doctrines? I have an interest in learning about different religions, but get put off by these threads because a lot like to bash others’ beliefs rather than discussing their own. Once posted a thread asking about everyone’s religions without the bashing. I got less than ten responses on that.


26 posted on 12/26/2009 4:33:16 PM PST by HungarianGypsy
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To: HungarianGypsy

It would take forever to find it. The people you see on this thread are former LDS, Baptist, Episcopalian and Methodist.

It’ll Get there.

I will tell my take away from this week.

There is an old joke and I always thought it was true.

Methodist are working their way to heaven with their system.

In fact, Methodists are but one of many Christian franchises that sprung from the Protestant movement and the word “Methodist” does not imply working your wsy to or climbing a ladder of hierachy to heaven.

It is in fact very similar to the Baptists(I am Baptist).

Methodist is a term to describe a way of living in daily prayer and a fulfillment of the greatest command of Charity.

Now the next time my Mom says that, I can offer the truth and dispell an old rumor.


27 posted on 12/26/2009 4:38:39 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: urroner; Elsie; Godzilla; Tennessee Nana
So, when I hear people that I don’t know or trust say things like “God runs my life,” “I have found Jesus,” or “God is my co-pilot,” those things are meaningless to me.

How 'bout the ones who go around saying, "I had a burning in my bosom from the Holy Ghost telling me that Joseph Smith is a twoooo prophet of the Lord and I KNOW the church is twooo."?

You think none of these folks had a " had a little dish off to the side"...and what about Joseph Smith's literal "banquet"??

28 posted on 12/26/2009 4:39:13 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (Obamacare: Old folks don't deserve healthcare. They use up too many carbon credits just breathing.)
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To: Vendome

You have just reminded me of a question I need to ask of the Presbyterians next time I get a chance. My husband made notice that there is a symbol on their churches (at least the one he pointed out) that resembles greatly that of the Templars symbol. I would like to know more about its meaning.


29 posted on 12/26/2009 4:43:26 PM PST by HungarianGypsy
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To: HungarianGypsy; Elsie

Hmmm.... I have never heard that one and my quick research shows that Presbyterians weren’t to keen on Masons and their writings against Masonry date back to the 17th Century.

Ask your husband about this symbol and get back to me.


30 posted on 12/26/2009 4:53:50 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: hoosier hick

I was introduced to this book through work years ago, I had no idea who Covey but as I read it, my inner radar screamed something is not right about this....I later found out Covey was a Mormon. Not a bad book,but it does reek of Mormon good works, however Mormons do not believe the same thing Christians do.


31 posted on 12/26/2009 4:54:55 PM PST by ThisLittleLightofMine
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To: hoosier hick

I was introduced to this book through work years ago, I had no idea who Covey but as I read it, my inner radar screamed something is not right about this....I later found out Covey was a Mormon. Not a bad book,but it does reek of Mormon good works, however Mormons do not believe the same thing Christians do.


32 posted on 12/26/2009 4:55:00 PM PST by ThisLittleLightofMine
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To: Vendome

He said he thinks it was Presbyterian. Will have to look next time we drive by. It is a grail with a red bar cross at an angle.


33 posted on 12/26/2009 4:58:23 PM PST by HungarianGypsy
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To: Colofornian
“It’s not about being intolerant. It’s about being true to my faith,”
34 posted on 12/26/2009 5:03:22 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
Move alonmg: nothing new here.

MORMONism has been saying they, too, are Christians.

But WHY; considering the LDS' past history?


 

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/17#17

  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,
“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
 
 
And, continuing thru the years, the high ranking leaders of that Organization have done the same!
 
Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).
 

 
Only just lately have the MORMONs seem to WANT be called Christians now.
 
Can't find ANYTHING in their doctrine that has changed to warrent this attitude shift; however.

35 posted on 12/26/2009 5:05:27 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: greyfoxx39
...by simply changing his vocabulary.

Here we go!!

36 posted on 12/26/2009 5:06:44 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: HungarianGypsy
It is a grail with a red bar cross at an angle.

Like this?

37 posted on 12/26/2009 5:11:06 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (Obamacare: Old folks don't deserve healthcare. They use up too many carbon credits just breathing.)
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To: greyfoxx39

LIke that, but the colors were reversed. It’s just an interest because we do medieval reenactment, so my husband studies the Hospitalers and the Templars.


38 posted on 12/26/2009 5:16:08 PM PST by HungarianGypsy
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To: HungarianGypsy

Can’t find it.


39 posted on 12/26/2009 5:19:14 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: Vendome

WHen I go past during the day in the next week I will try to remember to get a photo to post. It was just a point of interest for us.


40 posted on 12/26/2009 5:20:55 PM PST by HungarianGypsy
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To: HungarianGypsy

Cool. Always looking to learn new stuff.


41 posted on 12/26/2009 5:29:20 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: urroner
You missed the point. These principles are most definitely NOT about religion. They are neither Christian nor unchristian. I was not ‘knocking’ them merely saying that their is nothing in them that leads my life.

The fact that you worked for a hypocrite is not my fault. I had nothing to do with that. You notice I did not say what my religious beliefs are only that I work on a daily basis to be of maximum service to God and my fellows? How does committing a violent crime or lying to people or breaking vows or any of a hundred other actions fit into that? It doesn't.

Fact is human beings are flawed and failed. We as a fallen group find it easier to lie than tell the truth. We don't like to face hard truths. Humans left to their own devices end up doing some pretty awful things. Fortunately, Grace is perfect and brings many to being their better selves.

And of course if I mention the bad things that Mormons or Muslims or Jews or Hindus or anyone else does not doubt you will scoff and tell me that's not about the religion.

I am not responsible for others actions. If they claim something which is untrue they will have to live with the consequences of that. All I can do is live my life not the one YOU want me to live

42 posted on 12/26/2009 7:21:53 PM PST by the long march
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To: urroner; the long march
I once worked with a saved Christian who kept walking around the office saying that God was his co-pilot, but, while that could have been true, we also found out that even though he was married, he had a little dish off to the side. It seems that the devil was the stewardess. I know several people who went to prison for violent crimes and, while in prison, they “found” Jesus. They told everybody they had found Jesus. They even went to a couple of local churches and claimed before one and all they had found Jesus. Within a short time, one or two years, they were back in prison for committing some pretty violent crimes. [Urroner]

Yeah, boy this eerily reminds me of a poem I once heard:
Was shelled out some dough from a Joe
-- to find out later that Summ'
'twas big-time counterfeit -- well, at least some
tho the Benji was talkin' "green"
'twas obvious he was quite lean

tho the Benjifeiter did time for the crime
'twas back in the slammer in quick manner
said he reformed but ne'er did replace the two-face

So, when I hear people that I don’t know or trust say things like “God runs my life,” “I have found Jesus,” or “God is my co-pilot,” those things are meaningless to me. [Urroner]

Ever since, Urroner, I'm just like you...
...when I hear people that I don't know or trust say things like...
..."Hey, can I use these greenbacks and c-notes to buy that Craig's list item you put on sale?" or "Here's your change" those things are meaningless to me. (Once you encounter a $ counterfeiter, Urroner, since I know you share my distrust, I know you, too, will forever swear off buying into $ system biz)

43 posted on 12/26/2009 7:36:01 PM PST by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it!)
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To: Colofornian

Another anti-Mormon post from you.
Doesn’t it get old?


44 posted on 12/26/2009 7:40:46 PM PST by Jean S
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To: the long march

Long March, thank for telling me what I think. You have no idea how I want you to live or if I even want to tell you how to live other than not being a hypocrite. I don’t tell the people I work with, most of them are my friends, how to live, so why would I start making demands upon you?


45 posted on 12/27/2009 3:06:30 AM PST by urroner
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To: Colofornian

C-man, you’re weird. I have no idea what you were trying to tell me.


46 posted on 12/27/2009 3:13:13 AM PST by urroner
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To: Vendome

Why wasn’t it a good week for Mormons? BYU decimated OSU and we baptized a family just before Christmas. Sounds like a good week to me.


47 posted on 12/27/2009 3:16:42 AM PST by urroner
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To: Vendome

Vendome said:
Mormons are fine people but doctrinaly we are at odds and they truly believe they are superior in their relation to God while all others are apostates.

I say:
Interesting. I agree that doctrinally, we are at odds, but from what I have seen, many born again Christians truly believe they are superior in their relation to God while all others are apostates. From your post, I see more evidence of that.


48 posted on 12/27/2009 3:21:25 AM PST by urroner
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To: urroner

20 years ago my first introduction to Covey’s 7 habits was from my LDS boss at the time. Now I realize why.


49 posted on 12/27/2009 3:22:13 AM PST by CholeraJoe (My baloney has a first name, it's B-A-R-A-K. My baloney has a second name, it's O-B-A-M-A)
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To: urroner
So, which of those seven principles is unChristian?

None. It's the unnamed MORMON things that make it UNChristian.

50 posted on 12/27/2009 4:46:53 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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