Posted on 12/26/2009 7:35:28 PM PST by DemforBush
LOS ANGELES – A sign inside the Humming Motors auto repair shop says, "We do the worrying so you don't have to."
These days, owner David Baur spends a lot of time worrying in his full-service garage near downtown Los Angeles.
As cars become vastly more complicated than models made just a few years ago, Baur is often turning down jobs and referring customers to auto dealer shops. Like many other independent mechanics, he does not have the thousands of dollars to purchase the online manuals and specialized tools needed to fix the computer-controlled machines...
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
I miss the old days.
This is why I work on my own vehicles - I can do the ‘plug-&-pray component bingo game’ just as well as most “certified” mechanics, and for a heck of a lot less per hour.
Thank goodness, all todays cars are designed to prevent Global Warming.
You and me both. Sad times. My father taught me how to fix cars, now all I can do is tell my son … take your car to a dealership, I can’t help you.
“I miss the old days.”
We will all miss the old days as the new computer controlled and hybrid cars come on the market.
The equipment to service one will cost as much as the car.
It will also be a big problem if you are out in a rural area,
were Joe’s auto shop, will have no clue.
The bill, which has been sent to the House Committee on Energy and Commerce, would require automakers to provide all information to diagnose and service vehicles.”
Is there any part of daily life the government is NOT part of. Although it seems it is needed for this story.
Working as intended.
I can fix just about anything given the right tools and information. That’s the problem. The automakers, I believe, are intentionally writing the firmware, withholding information, and designing parts so that experienced mechanics, like myself, can’t do the work. Even if you have the skill and tools to replace a part, you might not have the ability to program/recalibrate the computer properly (as mentioned in article). Of course, that’s their right, but it’s also one of the reasons why I’m less likely to buy newer cars.
My rule of thumb is to take the car to the dealer while it is warranty. Once out of warranty, anybody but the dealer. I don’t want to reward bad behavior.
The real issue with the compterized-everything engines is they charge you $100 or more just to diagnose a potential problem, before they even attempt a repair.
You should be able to copyright software, but patenting an algorithm is like patenting the Pythagorean Theorem.
Just using dealerships as an example of the inability of the average citizen to repair their own vehicles. I use local repair shops and encourage my offspring to do the same.
I miss the good old days too the cars ran even after you turned of the ignition
But not EMP.
Autozone will do it free for you
You can buy a diagnosis kit for 200
It’s pretty easy to diagnose
Expensive to repair do
Remember the days when a fuel pump was on the engine?Now its in the gas tank and cost about 500.00 bucks and then the labor which is about half more.The after market stuff wont hold up but is cheaper.I buy parts off of evil bay for a fraction of a new one.How I long for a 1969 anything.
I don’t miss the old days at all. Cars were somewhat easier to fix, but you also spent a lot of your spare time fixing them or hunting for parts because they were constantly falling apart. Unless you liked to tinker with your car, it was a PITA. Plus cars back then handled poorly and had none of the features that modern cars have. For actually getting around, I’ll take a modern car. If I want a hobby, I’ll get an old clunker.
My first car was a 62 buick. My father and I replaced the lifters and pushrods in his driveway. There was nothing on that car I couldn’t fix myself. Later on I bought a 72 jeep. I broke the motor mount on the way to college my freshman year. I fixed it in the parking ot of an ace hardware store with a couple of bucks worth of chain and a cable tensioner - then I drove it down to school and used it like that for a couple of years. While I was in school, I broke the clutch connector too. I fixed that out in the parking lot with another cable tensioner and some bailing wire and drove it like that for a couple more years. Try to do any of this with a new car and you’ll probably just make your inevitable trip to the dealership more expensive. I really miss those simple machines.
That’s the thing - you can *gain* the ability to program / recalibrate the computer given the motivation.
I can attach my $130 tactrix cable to my $200 laptop and use free / open source software to tune and re-calibrate my engine to perform at peak performance (aka better than ‘factory’). You just need to educate yourself on the engine ‘programming’ and have a support community (as Subaru’s do).
I look at it like when we went from typewriters to wordprocessors / computers. It’s just a new tool we need to learn how to use.
There is nothing on my 1970 Ford F100 that I can’t diagnose and fix. There is almost noting on my wife’s 2007 Toyota Sienna that I can diagnose and fix.
I don't know if it was just my local Autozone policy or nationwide but they aren't allowed to reset ( clear ) the fault code. Advance can and that helped allot to find my car's problem.
>>Thank goodness, all todays cars are designed to prevent Global Warming.
>
>But not EMP.
A Diesel is the way to go for a vehicle that’ll run during an EMP. {Caveat: Provided the fuel injection is mechanically and not computer controlled.}
They are OK with that because in a few years old cars will be all written off and crushed. If not, they will not pass the smog check, so you can't use them anyway. Your options would be very few - either to walk, or to buy what is offered.
In any case, automakers are quite happy with computer-controlled cars because they are really better, more reliable and more clean. There are costs to get tools, but they aren't that high (ODB-II tester costs as low as $45) and Toyota offers online access to all repair manuals for, IIRC, $1/day or cheaper if you buy a yearly subscription. The owner of Luscious Garage (Carolyn Coquillette, mentioned in the article - I knew about her for a couple of years, she posts on mailing lists) spends a lot, but probably this is spread across many manufacturers, and as a business she needs permanent, unlimited access. If you have only one car you probably can get away with a less expensive access to service manuals.
Todays diesels won’t run after EMP. Too many electronic controls that are vital to engine performance.
Even my 2000 PowerStroke will be dead.
Todays diesels won’t run after EMP. Too many electronic controls that are vital to engine performance.
Even my 2000 PowerStroke will be dead.
True of many electronic things.....had a sales lady I was discussing a new washing machine with tell me to avoid the push button ones (electronic) and go for the dial one...LESS problems....EASIER to fix.
First car was a VW Karmann-Ghia. I removed and overhauled the engine by myself without any special tools. That was pretty cool. But keeping it tuned was a bummer— every few weeks or so, adjusting the points and valves. It was a super basic car and got me from here to there, but I actually prefer one that is quiet, comfortable, powerful, easy to drive, and has the niceties like a working radio and AC. It’s a worthwhile trade off.
As far as GM goes, they SHOULD provide it to any American taxpayer who wants it. After all, WE paid for it and WE own the damned company now. (Never mind the fact that it was stolen)
Cant beat a Bug for easy to fix.
I am looking for a 68-75 to build a Baja out of.
I wouldn’t mind a 67 Vette “clunker” with cruise, tilt, disc brakes, PS and AC.
Some of us wouldn’t mind suffering a bit driving that car around.
I have an `83 Oldsmobile diesel, I’m pretty sure it’ll run.
Though that is one of the nice things about Diesel engines: they can be far simpler than a similar gasoline engine... but then again I suppose that the vehicle-manufacturer/dealers could want more complex items so as to lock-in service.
They do not belong there for the same reasons they don't belong in health care.
I have been an automotive technician.
It is a hard way to make a living.
Your challenge is to find a good honest tech.
Just like you have to find a good doctor.
With the government involved, more good techs will bail.
Do you see a similarity?
I can't believe some of you actually seem to buy this BS.
Car companies are not conspiring against you. Small shops are struggling because people are not having their cars maintained then, it comes in on the hook with it really messed up.
They find out the cost, then go buy a new car.
Shops sometimes take inexpensive stabs at the problem and come up short. Example: replace front brake pads on pick up $250
Okay customer says, then upon dis-assembly tech finds cracks in caliper pistons.
So it needs calipers.
Customer is pissed because of extra $200 asked for by phone.
Reluctantly says yes, picks up vehicle then leaves mad,never to return.
Honest tech has to warn customer of possible extra charge $ 200 and hope customer does not go back to shop that said $250 for whole job without the warning.
Or the tech has to just bid $450 and hope the customer trusts them aand he replaces the calipers even if they don't really need it.
The main point I am saying is that so many people are their own worst enemy when it come to putting money into car maintenance.
I agree. My first pickup, a 63 Chevy, had the gas tank in the passenger compartment and a straight rod steering column. In any significant wreck you’d either get the steering column through the chest or be in a cab full of gas. They were great for their time, and in some ways I miss the old vehicles, but a while back I needed a truck and looked getting an old pickup and restoring it. I thought about the rougher ride, AM only radio, no AC without installing one, drum brakes all the way around, and went with a newer one.
“modern” cars fall apart all the time too. They ususally (though not always by any means) make it slightly past their warranty but then the problems begin and average mechanics can’t easily fix these problems because the manufacturers have taken measures to ensure that their cars have to be fixed at the dealerships. Interesting story aboout that: I had a mechanic replace a cam position sensor and he broke one of the mounting brackets on the distributor so, eventually, I registered another faulty cam position sensor because he couldn’t torque it down properly. So, I replaced the distributor but then, as I’m driving out of the dealership, the check engine light comes on and the tach is acting eratically (exactly what it was doing with the original bad cam position sensor). Those mechanics ran the fault and, sure enough, “faulty cam position sensor”. They played dumb (very convincingly). I took it to the mechanic who replaced the original cam sensor (the one who broke the mounting bracket I think). after about $80 worth of labor he tells me that “he thinks” the computer is bad and needs replaced... he thinks. And this is going to cost $500. I told him to forget it because I don’t really drive that car much anymore anyways. fast forward a few months. I tried to start it and the battery was dead. it had been dead for I don’t know how long but probably over a month or two. I jump started it and guess what? It drives like a champ now. The cars battery was completely drained and the computer’s memory banks cleared. When it was jump started, the computer reset to its defaults and the problems corrected themselves...for free. The mecahnic was gonna charge me $500 and he has a good reputation in my town. Moral of the story” “new cars kinda suck”. A long story but pretty pertinent to this debate.
Working on cars isn’t my living. It’s my hobby. I always used to say it was cheaper to buy the tools, manuals, and parts than to take the car to someone else. I’m not so sure on some of the latest cars.
The manufacturers seem to be intentionally making it more difficult to do repairs yourself. Some of this stuff is assembled so that it’s nearly impossible, without the manufacturer’s tools, to even take it apart.
I used to do everything on my cars short of machine work, like regrinding the crankshaft. It seems that everything started getting intentionally more difficult to work on in the late 90’s. Before then, you could read a code, change a sensor, and be back up.
I too miss "The Old Days". While I won't trade my 98 Durnago 4x4 for ANYTHING, the next car I but is going to be a 1970 something Chevy Nova with a 230 inline 6 and a 2 speed power slop. They were tanks and the one I had - bought it for 400 bucks in the 80's BTW - NEVER let me down.
My oldest son has a 1995 Grand Am...it needs a new heater core. Easy...I thought, but I thought WRONG. You have to take the entire dash apart. (Same with the Durango but at least it's big enough that I can move around)
Plus instead of having 2 lengths of 3/4 inch heater hose the Pontiac has some ridiculous molded "H" hose. The hose costs around a hundred bucks...the core itself around 40 to 50.
That isn't automotive advancement!
prisoner6
dittos — ‘plug-&-pray component bingo game’
And I get a bunch of new parts that I wouldn’t get from the auto repair guy. After spending 100s in diagnostics, I realized they knew less than I did. I bought the best $300 Actron diagnostic tool with graphing and have at it.
Right now I have an choice of two ‘buys’ to try and fix another new problem.
right way right: “Your challenge is to find a good honest tech.”
That’s true for just about any task. Going to a dealership isn’t any guarantee you’ll get a good tech.
Really, you think they would do that? LOL
Information hiding is the new wave. From the White House to your car.
Tarpon: “Information hiding is the new wave. From the White House to your car.”
And it’s entirely a business’s right to do so. The government, on the other hand, is supposed to work for me.
People who don’t have the skill or inclination to repair their cars are really, really dependent on the good graces of dealers and mechanics. That’s a position I refuse to be in until I’m so old I simply can’t do my own work any more.
If you want something done right, do it yourself!
Your right, in fact , when you take your car in for warranty you are likely to get a less experienced tech working on your car.
Why? because the Manufacture only pays so much for any particular repair.
The more senior techs will push these job onto the lesser techs in the food chain because the companies are really tight in the times they will pay for.
If a writer messes up bids a low bid on a particular job, guess who gets it?
Yes, it’s business’s right to do so, but they are doing it purposely to prevent independent shops from repairing your car. Much less yourself.
I believe you can make the case on the grounds it is unfair competition to withhold diagnostic information from the person who bought the product. My car has two sets, at least, of diagnostics, one which is accessed by OBDII and the other that is factory proprietary. If you have the know-how you can generally with a good diag tool get it down to a few parts. But it is expensive. A while back I was guessing which $500 part to buy, I guessed right — now the car is back running perfectly — But still, it’s not fair.
The white house just wants to turn the USA into a dictatorship ... what’s wrong with that.
I’m a tinkerer. Largely, I don’t mind computer controls. IMHO,OBD II really cleaned things up. One fifty dollar piece of equipment can point you in the right direction for any car sold in The USA. BTW, most of the sensors involved deal with emissions controls...but they are ‘real’ pollutants, and its not a bad idea to have emissions controls. The ability to reprogram the computer is rarely needed, and usually not in the tinkerer’s skill set. From a tinkerer’s point of view, I am much more concerned with the need for special tools, and some elaborate parts - I dread changing some of the hoses on my Expedition, for example, because they look like a manifold. What should cost seven dollars will surely cost eighty. I think this is really where most consumers will feel the pinch (special parts).
I miss the old days.
Me too. I remember the day when all you needed for a tune up was a set of spark plugs, a timing light, a tach & dwell meter, some feeler gauges and some assorted hand tools. Maybe a vacuum gauge too. I remember buying my first timing light & TDM set for about $25!
Mark
Points/condensor?
But I refuse to be trapped to the stealership ... so I'm making an effort to stay current on repairs.
Actually, if one has access to Alldata auto info, there is a ton of stuff that can be fixed w/o stopping by the $95 an hour crowd's hangout.
:-) I sell the tools that mechanics need to do exactly this type of programming. The information is in fact available to these independent shops, but the environment is becoming so technical and so fast that the very business model is changing for independent garages and they’re dividing into the technical shops or the old style garages.
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