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Barak: 'Regular' Attack Cannot Hit Iran's Nuclear Plant
IsraelNationalNews ^ | December 28, 2009 | By Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu

Posted on 12/28/2009 5:28:40 AM PST by Fennie

The recently-revealed Qom nuclear plant in Iran is buried so deep under concrete that a "regular" military attack would not affect it, Defense Minister Ehud Barak revealed to the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Security Committee on Monday.

Concerning Iran, the Defense Minister said that the Qom nuclear reactor was under construction for several years and is buried in a bunker that is resistant to regular bombing. He did not mention the prospect of a nuclear strike.

(Excerpt) Read more at israelnationalnews.com ...


TOPICS: Breaking News; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Israel
KEYWORDS: barak; barakisisraeli; barbaraann; ehudbarak; iran; iraniannukes; islam; israel; israelibarak; madmullahs; nukes; obama
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1 posted on 12/28/2009 5:28:41 AM PST by Fennie
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To: Fennie

Take one of our older “obsolete” space shuttles and fill it with depleted uranium rods in tungsten casings and have it make a Mach 6 re-entry, I would think that should create some damaged.

The best way to defeat an underground target that deep is to come up from even deeper, there is technology to create a subterranean boring torpedo, it can be nuclear powered using a plasma cutting head, it only needs to be 2 foot in diameter.

Air drop it as close as possible and program it to burrow to the target, use an explosive device that may exclude nuclear fission, possibly anti-matter. And I’m not just thinking of Angels and Demons, anti matter is a reality. So is a plasma warhead.


2 posted on 12/28/2009 5:35:19 AM PST by Eye of Unk (Phobos, kerdos, and doxa, said the Time Traveler. “Fear, self-interest, and honor.”)
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To: Fennie

A “regular” attack?


3 posted on 12/28/2009 5:38:01 AM PST by cweese (Hook 'em Horns!!!)
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To: Fennie

Wait until the wind is just right and.....


4 posted on 12/28/2009 5:40:16 AM PST by Dr. Ursus
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To: Fennie

Israel should build their own version of MOP.


5 posted on 12/28/2009 5:40:37 AM PST by Wiz
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To: Fennie

Causes one to wonder why our new and improved bunker buster bomb was put on hold....


6 posted on 12/28/2009 5:40:40 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: Dr. Ursus

Let’s hope the radioactive dust does not hit our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.


7 posted on 12/28/2009 5:43:27 AM PST by Wiz
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To: Fennie

Is he really this stupid?

Somebody get the kid out of the White House.


8 posted on 12/28/2009 5:44:20 AM PST by wastedyears (If I'm going out, I'm going out like Slim Pickins in Dr. Strangelove.)
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To: Fennie

That must be why Obama delayed our new giant bunker buster bomb program. Makes sense.


9 posted on 12/28/2009 5:44:22 AM PST by screaminsunshine (!!)
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To: Fennie

Our idiot “leadership” has left us with only “regular” and nuclear options.


10 posted on 12/28/2009 5:44:53 AM PST by G Larry (DNC is comprised of REGRESSIVES!)
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To: Eye of Unk

Anti-matter is a reality?


11 posted on 12/28/2009 5:45:21 AM PST by wastedyears (If I'm going out, I'm going out like Slim Pickins in Dr. Strangelove.)
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To: wastedyears

I believed it was “publicly” announced maybe a year or two ago that it was indeed created, sustained and stored.


12 posted on 12/28/2009 5:47:37 AM PST by Eye of Unk (Phobos, kerdos, and doxa, said the Time Traveler. “Fear, self-interest, and honor.”)
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To: wastedyears

Wrong Barak, though he does need to get out of the White House.


13 posted on 12/28/2009 5:48:19 AM PST by Future Snake Eater ("Get out of the boat and walk on the water with us!”--Sen. Joe Biden)
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To: Fennie

Underground installations have ventilation shafts and access doors.
The facility itself does not have to be destroyed.
It, along with the people inside, can simply be entombed.


14 posted on 12/28/2009 5:48:32 AM PST by Repeal The 17th (I AM JIM THOMPSON!)
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To: wastedyears

Oh good. I’m not the only one who thought this was the Barak we’ve been cursed with. Wrong Barak.


15 posted on 12/28/2009 5:58:21 AM PST by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ Þ)
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To: Fennie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimatter_weapon

An antimatter weapon is a hypothetical device using antimatter as a power source, a propellant, or an explosive for a weapon. Antimatter weapons do not currently exist due to the cost of production and the limited technology available to produce enough antimatter in sufficient quantities for it to be an acceptable weapon. The United States Air Force, however, has been interested in military uses—including destructive applications—of antimatter since the Cold War, when it began funding antimatter-related physics research. The primary theoretical advantage of such a weapon is that antimatter and matter collisions, though significantly limited by neutrino losses, still convert a larger fraction of the weapon’s mass into explosive energy than a fusion reaction in a hydrogen bomb, which is on the order of only 0.7%.[citation needed]

On March 24, 2004, Eglin Air Force Base Munitions Directorate official Kenneth Edwards spoke at the NASA Institute for Advanced Concepts[2]. During the speech, Edwards ostensibly emphasized a potential property of positron weaponry, a type of antimatter weaponry: Unlike thermonuclear weaponry, positron weaponry would leave behind “no nuclear residue”, such as the nuclear fallout generated by the nuclear fission reactions which power nuclear weapons. According to an article in San Francisco Chronicle, Edwards has granted funding specifically for positron weapons technology development, focusing research on ways to store positrons for long periods of time, a significant technical and scientific difficulty.

There is considerable skepticism within the physics community about the viability of antimatter weapons. According to an article on the website of the CERN laboratories, which produces antimatter on a regular basis, “There is no possibility to make antimatter bombs for the same reason you cannot use it to store energy: we can’t accumulate enough of it at high enough density. (...) If we could assemble all the antimatter we’ve ever made at CERN and annihilate it with matter, we would have enough energy to light a single electric light bulb for a few minutes.”[3]

Antimatter production and containment are major obstacles to the creation of antimatter weapons. Quantities measured in grams would be required to achieve destructive effect comparable with conventional nuclear weapons; one gram of antimatter annihilating with one gram of matter produces 180 terajoules, the equivalent of 42.96 kilotons of TNT (approximately 3 times the bomb dropped on Hiroshima - and as such enough to power an average city for an extensive amount of time).

(Read the full article and then consider the possibilities of major funding by Black Ops, regardless of whats publicly said its a possibility as a weapon)


16 posted on 12/28/2009 5:59:58 AM PST by Eye of Unk (Phobos, kerdos, and doxa, said the Time Traveler. “Fear, self-interest, and honor.”)
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To: Eye of Unk; wastedyears

Anti matter exists ...it has been produced in colliders. HOWEVER, it should be noted that ALL of the anti matter so far produced is so little it has the energy of a matchstick! Thus, NO warheads made of anti-matter. At least not for a very very very very long time ....and if we were even to get sufficient quantities of it, storing the stuff would be something else.


17 posted on 12/28/2009 6:08:27 AM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: screaminsunshine

I have this feeling that some minds continue to work on this important device....on dining room tables with some brews nearby.

Despite Obama’s best efforts, he will not infect the entire US with his brand of socialist stupidity.


18 posted on 12/28/2009 6:15:30 AM PST by Loud Mime (Liberalism is a Socialist Disease)
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To: Loud Mime

I do not know hat to say. We are infected. We have a severe Socialist infection. They are everywhere and coming out of the woodwork.


19 posted on 12/28/2009 6:23:24 AM PST by screaminsunshine (!!)
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To: Dr. Ursus

Make a parking lot out the entire country. WGAS about the Iranians


20 posted on 12/28/2009 6:23:58 AM PST by dumpthelibs (dumpthelibs)
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To: wastedyears; G Larry

Who knows the difference between Ehud Barak and Barack Obama?

Y’all are a major embarrassment.


21 posted on 12/28/2009 6:26:04 AM PST by upchuck (The plan for 2010: Pray; Raise/conserve cash; Pray; Pay your debts; Pray; Stockpile; Buy ammo; VOTE!)
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To: cweese

A regular attack from BO would be his talking points and apologies.


22 posted on 12/28/2009 6:27:20 AM PST by maddog55 (Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.)
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To: Fennie
is buried in a bunker that is resistant to regular bombing.

Well let's try anyway, bet we have something that would make it through.

23 posted on 12/28/2009 6:29:06 AM PST by SouthTexas (May you have a Blessed Christmas!)
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To: Fennie

Actually i wonder if he isn’t going to try and do something. He is making all the wrong moves on the economy, so if it is an economy stupid election in 2010 it is going to be a bloodbath for the dems. Politically he will need something, I wonder if he will be desperate enough to try an attack on Iran? If it works it might get him another 2 years of a congress that can force things through, OTOH Carter got desperate and attacked Iran and look where it got him.


24 posted on 12/28/2009 6:29:59 AM PST by cmonkey
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To: spetznaz

Well, think outside the box! Perhaps anti matter could be created in sufficient quantities on the spot so there won’t be a need to store it?


25 posted on 12/28/2009 6:30:33 AM PST by MRadtke (Light a candle or curse the darkness?)
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To: upchuck

I would think it’s a case of reading just the headline, then commenting.


26 posted on 12/28/2009 6:31:27 AM PST by wastedyears (If I'm going out, I'm going out like Slim Pickins in Dr. Strangelove.)
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To: Eye of Unk

I don’t care how deep it is, there’s an easy way to destroy it that doesn’t involves nukes, anti matter, or plasma warheads... The US and our allies know it but I doubt they’ll use it.


27 posted on 12/28/2009 6:33:01 AM PST by BCR #226 (07/02 SOT www.extremefirepower.com...The BS stops when the hammer drops.)
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To: Repeal The 17th

“It, along with the people inside, can simply be entombed.”

I concur. It’s also the case that such facilities have limited value if the political leadership is decapitated—a fact presumably recognized by Iran and Israel alike.

While I wish the Israelis success and the best possible outcome, I also have to own up to feelings of concern that a “too” successful Israeli initiative in 2010 (one that both disables its nuclear capability but also culminates in toppling the leadership, a revolt of the people and installation of a far more moderate regime), may also stimulate a level of euphoria in the U.S. that short-circuits the growing discontent with Obama—converting what potentially could be a massive show-stopping rout of Democrats next fall to a more conventional mid-term election in which they lose only a handful of seats in both houses. In short, “it’s complicated.”


28 posted on 12/28/2009 6:35:03 AM PST by DrC
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To: SouthTexas
A neutron bomb would vaporize everybody inside while leaving the structure undamaged in any way. no residual rads after a couple of days. All they would need to do is send down a replacement shift and resume. So the only way to do this is to rubble the entrances and air shafts, too.
29 posted on 12/28/2009 6:36:25 AM PST by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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To: BCR #226

My first thought when you posted that was the mythical Tesla Earthquake Device. The Russians claim to have a working model from what I heard some years ago.


30 posted on 12/28/2009 6:40:15 AM PST by Eye of Unk (Phobos, kerdos, and doxa, said the Time Traveler. “Fear, self-interest, and honor.”)
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To: Fennie

Massive Ordnance Penetrator

Canceled Fasthawk

These two munitions are capable of smashing through the thick concrete shell and destroying the nuke plant beneath it.

31 posted on 12/28/2009 6:44:29 AM PST by myknowledge (F-22 Raptor: World's Largest Distributor of Sukhoi parts!)
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To: Eye of Unk

Rather ironic that there's no word from the "One nuclear bomb can ruin your whole day" crowd who should be HIGHLY concerned about one more nation with their hands on the nuclear bomb.

32 posted on 12/28/2009 6:46:11 AM PST by BP2 (I think, therefore I'm a conservative)
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To: Fennie

Israel will not preemptively use a nuclear attack. They will use one in defense. Sometimes that line gets blurred, but not this time.

I would not put it past them, though, to have something up their sleeve. We’re only at this point because of US, Nato, and Israeli dallying.

I can only assume that they wanted Iran to have nukes. I’m curious as to why.


33 posted on 12/28/2009 6:49:39 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: Repeal The 17th
You forgot the escape tunnels.

What if the nuclear wizards decide to flee the facility during a bombing strike? What then? At least the nuke program would be given a minor delay, as long as the scientists are alive.

34 posted on 12/28/2009 6:50:38 AM PST by myknowledge (F-22 Raptor: World's Largest Distributor of Sukhoi parts!)
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To: Eye of Unk
Take one of our older “obsolete” space shuttles and fill it with depleted uranium rods in tungsten casings and have it make a Mach 6 re-entry, I would think that should create some damaged.

Aside from the fact that the space shuttle can only do Mach 6 in the upper atmosphere, who would pilot it in this scenario?

Air drop it as close as possible and program it to burrow to the target, use an explosive device that may exclude nuclear fission, possibly anti-matter. And I’m not just thinking of Angels and Demons, anti matter is a reality.

While antimatter is indeed a reality, the total sum of antimatter produced so far is just about sufficient to blow up a mosquito. At current rates of production, making enough antimatter to produce a practical weapon would take several billion years.

35 posted on 12/28/2009 6:56:43 AM PST by GL of Sector 2814 (One man's theology is another man's belly laugh -- Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: upchuck

It was blowing my mind with the misunderstanding. Almost made me upchuck.


36 posted on 12/28/2009 6:58:25 AM PST by halfright (My presidents picture is in the dictionary, next to the word, "rectum".)
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To: wastedyears
Anti-matter is a reality?

Yes it is. At projected production rates, CERN should be able to produce 1 gram of anti-hydrogen every 2 billion years...so don't expect to see it on sale at 7-11 anytime soon.

37 posted on 12/28/2009 7:01:16 AM PST by GL of Sector 2814 (One man's theology is another man's belly laugh -- Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: spetznaz
Thus, NO warheads made of anti-matter. At least not for a very very very very long time ....and if we were even to get sufficient quantities of it, storing the stuff would be something else.

You forget, we have a new lightworker, an attuned special being in the White House who is able to stop the seas from raising, help Mother Gia from rid herself of this fever, heal the planet and in general stand asride the earth in a godlike stance, so what's so hard about making enough anti matter.

He's Obama!

38 posted on 12/28/2009 7:01:16 AM PST by Popman (Election 2010: Congress: your pink slips are coming ............... :)
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To: xzins

I’m sure Israel doesn’t want them having Nukes, but they
keep hoping that the EU and US will wake up. They really
don’t want to send their best young men on a one way mission
unless its the last alternative.

If they do it, the attack will come from an unexpected
direction and method.


39 posted on 12/28/2009 7:03:05 AM PST by rahbert (There are no fish here! What kind of ocean is this?)
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To: GL of Sector 2814

The shuttle does not require a pilot. It can be fully controlled from the MSC and KSC. But that would be a big waste. Just use the sdi ordnance that was tested in the late 80’s.


40 posted on 12/28/2009 7:08:49 AM PST by StolarStorm
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To: Repeal The 17th

re: can simply be entombed

My first reaction too! For every upside there’s downside. In this case it’s the fact they still depend on eventual communication and connection with the outside world if the facility is to be anywhere near useful. Block that ability and you soon have the same problem as the guy who is constipated.


41 posted on 12/28/2009 7:13:05 AM PST by jwparkerjr
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To: wastedyears
Anti-matter is a reality?

yes but it would take next to forever to create enough to do any damage....better off using nukes....

42 posted on 12/28/2009 7:18:56 AM PST by Vaquero (BHO....'The Pretenda from Kenya')
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To: BCR #226
I don’t care how deep it is, there’s an easy way to destroy it that doesn’t involves nukes, anti matter, or plasma warheads... The US and our allies know it but I doubt they’ll use it.

OMG, I hope circumstances don't deteriorate to the point where they have to unleash the, the, the dreaded SAND WORMS.

43 posted on 12/28/2009 7:32:20 AM PST by varon (Allegiance to the constitution, always. Allegiance to a political party, never.)
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To: Fennie

“Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man.”
- General George Patton Jr

The following are my thoughts on this matter...posted some time ago... I still see no alternative that is less appalling than this. If anyone has a saner plan they should step up.


Attacking Iran for a 1 - 3 year delay will not be enough. Israel will go well beyond that in my opinion.

Anyone expecting Israel to execute an ordinary sort of attack is mistaken. Circumstances call for something quite extraordinary.

Recent movements by Israeli subs were not sight seeing tours, they almost certainly were dropping munitions on the sea floor for retrieval during a future attack. The subs cannot carry adequate stores of cruise missiles for extended action so they have positioned a supply near Iran.

If Iran were geographically closer Israel could easily use conventional means to totally destroy their nuclear capabilities... but only the United States has the ability to do that, and we all know 0 is not going to step up.

So Israel must do something drastic, simple air strikes with conventional bombs and bunker busters won’t get the job done this time. Israel could of course annihilate Iran using nuclear weapons, but they will not do that unless they are forced to. They will try something else first, something not as drastic as an all out nuclear attack, something very risky and dramatic.

I wrote the following back in May after thinking a long time about what options Israel really has, months later I still can think of no other reasonable option. It is either suffer another holocaust, launch an all out nuclear attack, or try something like this.

The Iranian installations that are in bunkers are what really need destroying to stop their nuclear program.

Nuclear bunker busters might be used, but even a 400kt device like our B61-11 might have difficulty penetrating to a sufficient depth to contain the blast and thus prevent massive fallout when the blast breached the surface and spewed many tons of radioactive debris into the sky. And although a 400kt or even 1 megaton warhead is a very powerful thing...it is quite weak underground when the target for destruction is a fortified bunker. It would be the shock wave that would need to destroy the bunker and for that a 400kt device would need to detonate very close to the bunker, perhaps as close as 400-700 feet. The problem is that even though you know where the entrances to the bunker are the actual bunker might be anywhere within a mile or so from those entrances. This means you would need to somehow get a precise location of the bunker by placement of seismic sensors ahead of time (listening for the sounds from industrial machinery and determining where the sound originates from)

A much more promising attack would be to take control of all the entrances and exits to such an installation and the surrounding area for an extended time.

To hold such an area from the types of assaults the Iranians could bring to bear would require creating your own hasty underground fortifications near the entrances to the bunker.

Massive mine laying would be required to protect against human-wave attacks such as were used in the Iran/Iraq war.
Iranian missile attacks would be totally ineffective against even hastily made Israeli underground defenses and could be dismissed as a real threat.

Chem/biological weapons would be used and so preparations would need to be made for protection.

It might in extreme circumstances be necessary to use battlefield neutron weapons to keep attacking forces at bay... this would require the Israelis to first actually possess such weapons (likely) and be willing to use them in extreme circumstances (also likely), they would also need to be able to protect themselves from the heavy neutron bombardment...this can be done but is not an easy thing to engineer quickly in the field so preparation would need to be underway immediately upon taking control of the area.

The neutron weapons would be able to immediately incapacitate attackers (even inside tanks) inside a blast radius of about 1/3 mile with a radiation dose of roughly 80 Gy...after such a dose only a very few ‘walking deadmen’ would be able to remain active, and those for a very short time.
The small radiation weapons would release the force of about 1kt compared to a conventional nuclear weapon...this is a very small yield and would pose no threat at all to Israeli soldiers in even rudimentary underground shelter.

The Israeli force would need to be supplied with food and other essentials for a possible extended time...long enough to locate and destroy the Iranian underground installations by placing appropriate charges, nuclear or conventional.

This would certainly call for a dedicated force of extraordinary men....but such men do exist and I’m certain Israel has enough of them to do the job.

If anyone else has a better idea for an Israeli plan of action I’d like to hear it... Diplomacy is a dead end...literally.


44 posted on 12/28/2009 7:35:23 AM PST by Bobalu (I AM JIM THOMPSON)
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To: Eye of Unk
The other problem is that antimatter would make a very poor explosive. First, a chemical or nuclear explosion does massive damage not only because of the energy released, but also because of the massive shock blast (caused by the air surrounding the explosive being hypercompressed by the explosion). In fact, the shock wave is the largest contributor for conventional explosives, and at least equally as destructive as the energy release during the intial blast of a nuke (ignoring fallout/radiation). Antimatter does not feature the same explosive blast. The antimatter only reacts at its point of contact between the matter and antimatter. For this reason, it would be difficult to convert the entire warhead at once: if the matter surrounded the warhead, the reaction would tend to separate the matter from the antimatter (slowing the reaction). If a matter plug was introduced into the antimatter, the same problem occurs... as the antimatter reacts with the matter around it, less matter remains close enough to react. And a slower reaction means less of a shock wave. Your antimatter "bomb" will be more like a fire (in reaction types) than an explosion.

Second, chemical explosives release energy in a narrow range of wavelengths (based on the chemical reaction causing the explosion). Narrow range means concentration. Antimatter-matter reactions release energy all across the spectrum (from gamma to ELF radio). Granted, antimatter reactions release magnitudes more energy than conventional weapons, but in a much broader range, reducing the energy advantage significantly. Combined with the lessened blast wave, and you'd be better off with carefully applied conventional weapons (or a nuke), especially when you consider the incredible expense of antimatter. As a fuel, antimatter would be awesome, but as a weapon... it'll be relegated to the same category as Star Wars lightsabres and Star Trek photon torpedoes for a long time to come...

45 posted on 12/28/2009 7:39:30 AM PST by Charles H. (The_r0nin) (Hwaet! Lar bith maest hord, sothlice!)
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To: Eye of Unk
The problem is, you are thinking 1st and 2d Challange. In 3d Challange warfare, we cannot afford to spend 27 trazilion dollars building such a weapon when they can spend $25,000 on flight lessons and a few nights at Motel 6, then hikack a 747 and fly it into a large building.

Remember, it was pure luck that the plane hit the Pentagon. The pilot couldn’t find the White House. It looks very different from the air. Try it on Google Earth.

The Shanksville A/C was headed for the Capitol Building. We had no viable ADA in place to protect either.

It's a different war, a different world.

46 posted on 12/28/2009 7:42:52 AM PST by MindBender26 (Obama is what you get when you let the O.J. jury selects a president !)
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To: Eye of Unk
(Read the full article and then consider the possibilities of major funding by Black Ops, regardless of whats publicly said its a possibility as a weapon)

Enjoying your Christmas break time away from Jnr High?

47 posted on 12/28/2009 7:45:47 AM PST by killjoy (Life sucks, wear a helmet.)
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To: jhpigott; 1COUNTER-MORTER-68; Nachum; SunkenCiv

*ping*


48 posted on 12/28/2009 7:48:08 AM PST by hennie pennie
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To: jhpigott; 1COUNTER-MORTER-68; Nachum; SunkenCiv

*ping*


49 posted on 12/28/2009 7:48:51 AM PST by hennie pennie
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To: Fennie

Psy-ops.


50 posted on 12/28/2009 7:55:57 AM PST by Genoa (Luke 12:2)
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