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Mormon Media Observer: Top 10 LDS newsmakers of 2009
Mormon Times ^ | Dec. 30, 2009 | Joel Campbell

Posted on 12/30/2009 1:32:39 PM PST by Colofornian

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To: LeGrande
I think I will take my own advice and ignore the troll.

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101 posted on 01/08/2010 3:39:41 PM PST by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut; LeGrande; Religion Moderator
So reaganaut tricked me into answering that question? [legrand]


102 posted on 01/08/2010 3:43:41 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: LeGrande
Often we only see what we expect to see.

Very good, Grasshopper.

Expect the unexpected.

103 posted on 01/08/2010 3:47:00 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Godzilla
Guess I am just sneaky that way.
104 posted on 01/08/2010 3:51:37 PM PST by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Godzilla

sorry forgot the /sarc tag


105 posted on 01/08/2010 3:57:23 PM PST by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut
Yeah, so? So have I, several times and many in their original languages (I am fluent in several). Point?

I am impressed. You read the Koran in Arabic? Or the Bhagavata in Sanskrit. The Tanakh in Hebrew? The Buddhavacana in Pali? That is really amazing :) Or were you just pulling my leg?

Familiarity with the stories does not equal a detailed or scholarly knowledge. That applies to believers as well as non. A knowledge of a religion goes far, far beyond a reading of the “standard works”.

Yes, but a familiarity with the teachings does go a long ways towards understanding the religion. Have you found that most of your comrades truly understand their beliefs?

And reading does not equal comprehension.

I couldn't agree more : )

A book knowledge is entirely different from a faith. Christians usually refer to it as a “head” knowledge vs. “heart” knowledge.

And your point is that faith trumps actual knowledge? The reality is the other way around : )

I will agree that blind faith often has the power to get people to do stupid and crazy stuff, the Moslem suicide bombers for example.

106 posted on 01/08/2010 4:00:34 PM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: metmom
It's irrelevant whether I deny it or not. You made an accusation about me in the previous post, post 65. Back it up.

I will accept your lack of denial as an admission.

107 posted on 01/08/2010 4:05:08 PM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: zerosix

“Mormons are definitely on the move — I’ve had no less than 5 calls per day (excepting Sunday, of course) since 12/26 from “Mitt Romney for President” campaign.”

I find it interesting how those of us who dislike Romney are accused of not liking him because he is Mormon.
But then a person realizes that most of his support and organization is from Mormons; and they support him precisely because he is Mormon. And his liberal views are excused away.


108 posted on 01/08/2010 4:06:52 PM PST by HereInTheHeartland (The End of an Error - 01/20/2013)
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To: Elsie
Expect the unexpected.

So you read the "Black Swan' too? There is hope for you yet : )

109 posted on 01/08/2010 4:06:54 PM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: reaganaut
More of a serial agitator. Likes to hear their own voice type. Another case of the knowledge beyond the grasp of their understanding we have discussed

Your own advice is good advice, there is no need to treat this one seriously by any means.

110 posted on 01/08/2010 4:17:50 PM PST by ejonesie22
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To: Godzilla; reaganaut
So reaganaut tricked me into answering that question? [legrand]

Yep Reaganaut will need to savor that for a long time : )

Where have you been Godzilla? It has been a long time since I last smacked you down : )

111 posted on 01/08/2010 4:18:02 PM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: reaganaut
I think I will take my own advice and ignore the troll.

Another one bites the dust : ) All these fundamentalists without the courage of their convictions.

112 posted on 01/08/2010 4:20:06 PM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: LeGrande

I am impressed. You read the Koran in Arabic? Or the Bhagavata in Sanskrit. The Tanakh in Hebrew? The Buddhavacana in Pali? That is really amazing :) Or were you just pulling my leg?

- - - - - -
Not pulling your leg. Arabic, Sanskrit and Hebrew, (not Pali) as well as Greek, Egyptian (demotic and hieroglyphs), Latin, Gaelic, and several modern European languages. It’s a gift made easier by a Graduate degree in Linguistics.


113 posted on 01/08/2010 4:22:31 PM PST by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: LeGrande; Religion Moderator

A lack of response does not indicate an inability to respond. Thread hijacking is not taken well here on the RF.

Vague accusations does not a debate make.


114 posted on 01/08/2010 4:25:20 PM PST by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: LeGrande

Are you willing to defend your beliefs or do you want to run away?

- - - - - -
You have given me nothing to defend. I don’t run away, I just don’t feed trolls.


115 posted on 01/08/2010 4:26:17 PM PST by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: LeGrande
Where have you been Godzilla? It has been a long time since I last smacked you down : )

I've been right here wondering when you'd stagger in again.

116 posted on 01/08/2010 4:26:45 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: LeGrande; Religion Moderator; reaganaut; Elsie

You made an accusation about me that you refuse to back up with sources or links.

The argument that I refuse to answer your question as being admission of guilt is intellectually dishonest and I will not accept it.

Back up your contention or admit that it’s a lie and what you’re up to.

RM, for the record, I haven’t pinged lg in months. Out of the blue, he comes along and makes an accusation about me that he treats as fact because of some bizarre *reasoning* (for lack of a better term) on his part. I don’t know what provoked this incident, but it was completely unwarranted.

If he’s going to make statements like this, he either needs to support them or acknowledge them as slander.

Reaganaut and Elsie were courtesy pinged to this comment because they were the ones he posted the comment to and he was making accusations about them as well.


117 posted on 01/08/2010 4:34:02 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: LeGrande; Religion Moderator; reaganaut; Elsie

I will not play your game.

Try someone else.


118 posted on 01/08/2010 4:36:37 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom; LeGrande; Elsie

From LG’s profile page:

Libertarian who thinks what we need is more Honor and Accountability

- - - - - - - -
Anyone else find the humor in that statement?


119 posted on 01/08/2010 4:41:37 PM PST by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Godzilla; ejonesie22

Irony ping to #119


120 posted on 01/08/2010 4:42:49 PM PST by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut

:)


121 posted on 01/08/2010 4:44:39 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: reaganaut

It’s the most ironic thing I’ve read in a long time.


122 posted on 01/08/2010 4:50:39 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: reaganaut

No, make that.... ever......


123 posted on 01/08/2010 4:50:57 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

No, make that.... ever......

- - - - - -
Chuckle. It is “up there” for me as well.


124 posted on 01/08/2010 4:54:10 PM PST by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Colofornian

This list is worthless without Donny Osmond. He won “Dancing With The Stars”.


125 posted on 01/08/2010 4:57:58 PM PST by SeaHawkFan
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To: reaganaut

Are you familiar with the term *pwnd*?


126 posted on 01/08/2010 5:27:40 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

Are you familiar with the term *pwnd*?

- - — - -
As a “”hard core” gamer, yes I am. lol.


127 posted on 01/08/2010 5:33:09 PM PST by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut

Among other things...


128 posted on 01/08/2010 6:08:10 PM PST by ejonesie22
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To: Godzilla
Why when I think of our friend here am I reminded of this poster:


129 posted on 01/08/2010 6:20:26 PM PST by ejonesie22
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To: ejonesie22

ROTFLAICGU!!!!!!!


130 posted on 01/08/2010 6:50:43 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: reaganaut; All
I am curious. What prompted you to leave the LDS religion and become anti Mormon? I am mostly curious about the bitterness aspect. I left but have no animosity.

I have asked this question before from the Mormon apostates, but have never gotten an intelligible answer.

131 posted on 01/08/2010 8:11:17 PM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: LeGrande
I will accept your lack of denial as an admission.

By your same standard, I will accept your lack of evidence to support the statement you made about me as an admission that you lied about me.

132 posted on 01/08/2010 8:33:11 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: HereInTheHeartland; zerosix
I find it interesting how those of us who dislike Romney are accused of not liking him because he is Mormon. But then a person realizes that most of his support and organization is from Mormons; and they support him precisely because he is Mormon.

What was that I heard? Something along the lines of *Voting for someone because of their religion (race, gender, whatever) is as bad as voting against them because of their religion (race, gender, whatever).

Those who vote for him because he's a Mormon are in no position to point fingers and complain when others use the same criteria for voting.

133 posted on 01/08/2010 8:37:08 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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Comment #134 Removed by Moderator

To: LeGrande

I am curious. What prompted you to leave the LDS religion and become anti Mormon? I am mostly curious about the bitterness aspect.

- - - - - -
You make an interesting assumption. I am not bitter and I am not anti-MORMON, I am anti-MormonISM (and I do make a distinction). I can see how many LDS would think that all “anti’s” are angry, bitter, and or hateful, I thought so as well when I was LDS. Any animosity I may feel is directed at the leadership and those who deliberately mislead the rank and file members about LDS church history and past teachings. Those who know there are issues yet cover them up, say “we never taught that” when the sources say otherwise, and those who deliberately mislead investigators.

I do not know what you are looking for when you say “intelligible answer” and I suspect that my answer will not satisfy you either, however I will be forthright about my leaving the LDS.

Since you were LDS, (I may be wrong, but I suspect LeGrande may have been a reference to LeGrand Richards although spelled differently) and left, it now makes sense you are an atheist. That is very common (over 50%).

I was a convert to the LDS (rather than BIC), and I believe that was a factor in my becoming a Christian rather than an atheist. About 85-90% of the ex-LDS I know who are agnostics/atheists were BIC. I did not grow up having “either the LDS church is true or NO church is” drilled into me and I never seriously doubted the existence of God. I was always a seeker.

I am asked this question so often I really should do a formal one on my profile page.

There were many factors in my leaving. Quick list of some things that were NOT factors.

I did not leave the LDS becuase someone offended me, becuase I wanted to sin, because I never had a testimony, or becuase I couldn’t live up to the standards. I was a great Mormon. But there came a time, when confronted about the truth of the the LDS church history and doctrines and the changes that I could no longer defend them in good conscience.

I set out to be an LDS apologist. I HATED the “anti-Mormons” like Jerald and Sandra Tanner. I LOVED Hugh Nibley. I was TBM and wanted to defend “the Church” and take down the Tanners.

I set out to prove that the “anti’s” were taking things out of context or misusing sources or making things up. I spent almost a year researching both at BYU and the LDS Church History library. I poured over journals, sources, read the full JoD, and old Church manuals. In a way, that experience is what led me into a career as a historian. I also did the same to some of Hugh Nibley’s works and the Brown’s series “They lie in wait to deceive”.

I was shocked to find out that, more often than not, it was the LDS apologists that did not properly cite sources, made up sources, took things out of context and had poor scholarship.

By this point, I already had a background in Latin, Koine Greek and Hebrew and was able to “undo” quite a bit of Nibley’s footnotes.

During this time I also took Egyptian Hieroglyphs classes at UCLA in order to better “prove” the Book of Abraham “true”. You can imagine the failure that turned out to be.

The final straw, in many ways, came about this time while I was preparing for an LDS mission. I was enrolled in a “Mission Preparation” class at BYU. One of our first sessions, we were given a list of doctrines NOT to teach investigators such as: Mother in Heaven, Godhood, Adam/God (which was still widely accepted on campus), Jesus was married and a polygamist, etc.

It bothered me because I believed the LDS was the only true church and we had all truth. I asked the professor, why, if we had the truth, could we not just be honest with investigators. His response was “If we told the truth, no one would ever join”. I was not going to spend my money to go out and not be completely honest.

There are other factors as to why I became an Evangelical Christian, but the above is much of the reason I left.

I have many loved ones in the LDS still and their freedom from deliberate Church deception is what I fight for. I love them, not hate them.

I am sure you will disagree with me, but my hope is that the LDS question their faith and history the way I did and see there is a better way, faith in Jesus alone, not any “church” or denomination.


135 posted on 01/08/2010 9:18:18 PM PST by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: LeGrande

One more factor I forgot to include. The big changes in the LDS temple ceremony in 1990. As LDS, I was taught that the Endowment was given by God and the same on that existed in ancient temples (many rank and file LDS believe this).

Then they made HUGE changes and I could not reconcile what I had been taught with the sudden disappearance of the penalties and the minister who was a hireling of Satan.

Either the principles, teaching and oaths were eternal or they were not.


136 posted on 01/08/2010 9:29:40 PM PST by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut
I do not know what you are looking for when you say “intelligible answer” and I suspect that my answer will not satisfy you either, however I will be forthright about my leaving the LDS.

For those who are not truly interested in answer, no answer will suffice...

137 posted on 01/09/2010 5:25:43 AM PST by ejonesie22
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To: ejonesie22; reaganaut

GMTA.

reaganaut gave a very intelligible answer, but you are no doubt right.


138 posted on 01/09/2010 5:36:49 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
It has been proven over and over with this one...
139 posted on 01/09/2010 5:40:23 AM PST by ejonesie22
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To: LeGrande
I will accept your lack of denial as an admission.

Yes Honor:

I request a new attorney!

140 posted on 01/09/2010 5:43:56 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: LeGrande
I will accept your lack of denial as an admission.

Your Honor:

I request a new attorney!

141 posted on 01/09/2010 5:44:13 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: LeGrande
 
All these fundamentalists without the courage of their convictions.
 


In a landscape far, far away (For a Hoosier boy, 50 years ago - Denver was QUITE foreign), walking back to Lowry Airbase after midnight on a cool late fall night morning, ruminating over the late night TY show (something about miracles at Lourdes), I found myself stating what I'd heard in school: Big Bang, Evolution, etal - I dismissed the show as fiction; a religion advertisement, a sawdust trail appeal.

Looking up at the brilliant pinpoints of light, sparkling in the high plains air, I thought of how they came to be.

Einstein's formula - E=Mc2 floated up from memory...

Knowing that the equation can be turned around to M=E/c2 I thought, "Yeah! All that MASS up there now shining down - it appeared after the tremendous energy burst of the Big Bang! The rest is history."

Almost back at the gate, confident that I'd figgered it out; an almost audible thought(?) came to me...

"Where did the ENERGY come from?"

At that time; I had no answer.


142 posted on 01/09/2010 5:46:39 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: reaganaut
Are you willing to defend your beliefs or do you want to run away?

And I don't play defense.

143 posted on 01/09/2010 5:47:47 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom
I will not play your game.

The TarBaby will NOT be happy!

144 posted on 01/09/2010 5:49:04 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: SeaHawkFan

...and his sister fell over!


145 posted on 01/09/2010 5:50:01 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: LeGrande
I have asked this question before from the Mormon apostates, but have never gotten an intelligible answer.

Oh... I'll bet you HAVE; it's probably just that you didn't AGREE with their answer.

146 posted on 01/09/2010 5:52:51 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: reaganaut
 I was enrolled in a “Mission Preparation” class at BYU.
 
 
Did you get to hear THIS fellow?


 
 
 
Professor Robert Millet        teaching at the Mission Prep Club in 2004  http://newsnet.byu.edu/video/18773/  <-- Complete and uneditted

 
 
Timeline...    Subject...
 
0:59            "Anti-Mormons..."
1:16            "ATTACK the faith you have..."
2:02           "We really aren't obligated to answer everyone's questions..."
3:57           "You already know MORE about God and Christ and the plan of salvation than any who would ATTACK you."

147 posted on 01/09/2010 5:55:49 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: reaganaut
Either the principles, teaching and oaths were eternal or they were not.
148 posted on 01/09/2010 5:57:04 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Or probably just not the answer he wanted to hear.


149 posted on 01/09/2010 6:03:11 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: ejonesie22

No kidding.....


150 posted on 01/09/2010 6:04:11 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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