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Mormon Media Observer: Top 10 LDS newsmakers of 2009
Mormon Times ^ | Dec. 30, 2009 | Joel Campbell

Posted on 12/30/2009 1:32:39 PM PST by Colofornian

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To: reaganaut

Thank you for your reply. It actually helped answer a few questions.

I also found your comment about the difference between converts and BIC to be enlightening, but I think in my case I was a born skeptic and a slow learner : )

I too found the difference between the beliefs and facts to be disconcerting. That is why I left, but I have continued to be amazed by the same disconnect everywhere I look.


151 posted on 01/09/2010 7:29:36 AM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: Elsie
"Where did the ENERGY come from?"

Which is another way of saying where did the mass come from? They are equivalent. Energy and mass are simply waves of nothing.

If you take it one step further to QM you will see the answer in the spontaneous pair production. In the final equation it all balances out.

The big bang, expansion of the universe, energy, matter, etc. Can all be explained from the particle anti particle spontaneous creation that occurs all the time. The energy balance stays the same though, zero. : ) Something really does come from nothing and it will go back to nothing too.

152 posted on 01/09/2010 7:47:36 AM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: LeGrande; Elsie
Something really does come from nothing ....

So the Bible really is right. Imagine that....

153 posted on 01/09/2010 7:57:38 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
Something really does come from nothing ....

So the Bible really is right. Imagine that....

Which part of the Bible says that?

154 posted on 01/09/2010 8:12:48 AM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: LeGrande

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.


155 posted on 01/09/2010 8:48:25 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
I naively thought you were going to refer to Genesis.

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

Where is the something from nothing there?

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

This is actually the more interesting part and confirmed by Einstein, light, life and matter are one and the same.

You may find this of use someday : ) Mormon teachings directly conflict with ex nihilo doctrine. The Mormon God does not create something from nothing. Ergo the Mormon God is not omnipotent.

156 posted on 01/09/2010 10:11:33 AM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: LeGrande
Something really does come from nothing and it will go back to nothing too.

Ah...

FAITH!

157 posted on 01/09/2010 11:25:03 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: LeGrande
This is actually the more interesting part and confirmed by Einstein, light, life and matter are one and the same.

I've missed this part...

158 posted on 01/09/2010 11:27:12 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: LeGrande
This is actually the more interesting part and confirmed by Einstein, light, life and matter are one and the same.

I've missed this part...

159 posted on 01/09/2010 11:27:52 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: LeGrande
The Mormon God does not create something from nothing. Ergo the Mormon God is not omnipotent.

How do you know he COULDn't if he WANTED to?

Maybe he be layin' low 'til something REALLY fancy is needed!

(Thanks for the tip though.)

http://www.atheistnexus.org/group/exmormonatheists/forum/topics/antidepressant-use-in-utah

160 posted on 01/09/2010 11:59:17 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
I've missed this part...

Twice obviously : ) Life is a soliton.

161 posted on 01/09/2010 12:18:47 PM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: Elsie
How do you know he COULDn't if he WANTED to?

That is the tricky part, full of logical contradictions. Those logical contradictions falsify the idea of any omnipotent god.

162 posted on 01/09/2010 12:20:50 PM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: LeGrande
Those logical contradictions falsify the idea of any omnipotent god.

I always got an "F" if I didn't show my work...

163 posted on 01/09/2010 1:46:04 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: LeGrande; Elsie
That is the tricky part, full of logical contradictions. Those logical contradictions falsify the idea of any omnipotent god.

Sarcasm is obviously lost on you.

Regardless, God is not an idea that He can be falsified. Nor does logic work if you start with erroneous presuppositions.

Presuming that that argument falsifies an omnipotent God depends on wrong presuppositions about God and wrong use of the definition of *omnipotent*.

If you want to disprove God, you're going to have to find a better method than one devised by the finite and imperfect minds of man.

164 posted on 01/09/2010 2:02:35 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
God is not an idea that He can be falsified.

That is correct. God is an idea that man created.

Presuming that that argument falsifies an omnipotent God depends on wrong presuppositions about God and wrong use of the definition of *omnipotent*.

Omnipotent is pretty self explanatory, hard to get that definition wrong.

If you want to disprove God, you're going to have to find a better method than one devised by the finite and imperfect minds of man.

Falsifying the idea of God is trivial. If I look in the bottom of my coffee cup and don't see God I have falsified it. On the other hand you have your work cut out for you if you want to prove the existence of God. Good luck : )

165 posted on 01/09/2010 2:56:13 PM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: Elsie
I always got an "F" if I didn't show my work...

Elsie you never show your work : )

Here is a simple, easy to understand example. If God is Omnipotent then it can do anything right? So it should be trivial to build a mass that can't be moved right? But God is omnipotent and can do anything so there is no mass that it can't move. Therefor he can't build a mass that he can't move. But God can do anything, therefor it can build a mass that it can't move. Ad infinitum.

God can do one or the other but not both. When people start throwing around words like omniscient and omnipotent, those are easily falsified concepts.

166 posted on 01/09/2010 3:08:45 PM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: LeGrande
If I look in the bottom of my coffee cup and don't see God

That darned coffee cup of yours again. You've been looking for God in there for many years, on FR alone.

Are you expecting the grounds in the bottom to self-organize into an image of Jesus or something? Maybe a little tiny Jesus walking across the surface of your coffee? What, exactly, is it that would convince you of the existence of God, in your coffee cup?

167 posted on 01/09/2010 3:14:27 PM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: LeGrande
God is not an idea that He can be falsified.

That is correct. God is an idea that man created.

First you agree that He is not an idea, then you say He is. Which is it? Is He an idea or not?

Then you shouldn't have any problem distinguishing the difference between having unlimited power and being able to *do everything*, as if having power makes one able to do contradictory things, which it doesn't. Starting with a false premise leads to erroneous conclusions. God is not capable of doing *whatever He wants* which is really a inadequate man-made construct.

God cannot change and God cannot lie, to start with, so the premise that God can do everything, or anything He wants, is false, therefore any conclusions based on that will be wrong.

Time for you to head back to Logic 101

Disproving God takes more that corrupted reasoning. In order for you to definitively demonstrate that there is no God, you need to know all things for all time and eternity, and everywhere, which would make you God. Since you can't do that, and aren't that knowledgeable, you by, default cannot disprove God.

168 posted on 01/09/2010 3:57:45 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: RegulatorCountry

We can’t see air either, therefore it must not exist....


169 posted on 01/09/2010 3:58:54 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: RegulatorCountry
That darned coffee cup of yours again. You've been looking for God in there for many years, on FR alone.

Howdy Regulator : ) As an ex Mormon there were taboos against drinking coffee. Mormons are actually pretty accepting folk, but drinking, smoking and coffee tend to push the limits.

Are you expecting the grounds in the bottom to self-organize into an image of Jesus or something? Maybe a little tiny Jesus walking across the surface of your coffee? What, exactly, is it that would convince you of the existence of God, in your coffee cup?

I am subtly making fun of all those people who see images of Christ or Mary on a potato or burnt toast : )

170 posted on 01/09/2010 4:58:21 PM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: metmom

If I knew his address, I’d send him a custom coffee cup with the word “god” silkscreened in the bottom. He probably still wouldn’t find God as a result, but we wouldn’t have to read about him looking in that infernal, godless coffee cup anymore.


171 posted on 01/09/2010 4:59:29 PM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: LeGrande

Ah, so you’re ribbing Catholics, then, while engaging in a formerly illicit behavior?

Just don’t start talking into that coffee cup, the next time you’re looking for Him in there, especially if you’re in Utah. The irony would be so thick, I’m sure something would spontaneously combust, lol.


172 posted on 01/09/2010 5:05:34 PM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: ejonesie22

He who has ears, let him hear. - Matthew 11:5


173 posted on 01/09/2010 5:22:52 PM PST by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: metmom
Metmom - "God is not an idea that He can be falsified."

LeGrande - "That is correct. God is an idea that man created. "

Metmom - First you agree that He is not an idea, then you say He is. Which is it? Is He an idea or not?

God is an idea that can't be falsified, unless it is clearly defined. Once it is clearly defined, like saying God is Omnipotent then the idea can be falsified.

God is not capable of doing *whatever He wants* which is really a inadequate man-made construct.

Then clearly God is not omnipotent, by your own admission. I apparently was under the false impression that you thought God was Omnipotent.

God cannot change and God cannot lie, to start with, so the premise that God can do everything, or anything He wants, is false, therefore any conclusions based on that will be wrong.

We are in total agreement that God cannot be omnipotent. Now you are starting to sound like a Mormon : )

Disproving God takes more that corrupted reasoning. In order for you to definitively demonstrate that there is no God, you need to know all things for all time and eternity, and everywhere, which would make you God. Since you can't do that, and aren't that knowledgeable, you by, default cannot disprove God.

You are correct. I can't prove a negative (or prove anything at all). In other words I can't disprove the possible existence of Despator (God of creation). It is only when people give that God defining characteristics that I have a shot at falsifying it. I can falsify some things : )

As it turns out though, Despator and I are good drinking buddies and he doesn't recall a JHWH around when he created everything (himself included) ex nihilo : ) Can you falsify Despator?

174 posted on 01/09/2010 5:23:59 PM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: Elsie

Are you willing to defend your beliefs or do you want to run away?

- - - - - - -

No, I would never claim you did. LOL. Offense, however....


175 posted on 01/09/2010 5:37:46 PM PST by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: RegulatorCountry
Ah, so you’re ribbing Catholics, then, while engaging in a formerly illicit behavior?

Yes. Life is good isn't it?

Just don’t start talking into that coffee cup, the next time you’re looking for Him in there, especially if you’re in Utah. The irony would be so thick, I’m sure something would spontaneously combust, lol.

Hmm, my wife has become quite the barrista. She even draws pictures in the espresso's. It is kind of a daily joke trying to guess what the drawing is of : ) Maybe I will see God one day.

176 posted on 01/09/2010 5:38:25 PM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: reaganaut
I still can't believe people are playing around with this clown.
177 posted on 01/09/2010 5:39:18 PM PST by ejonesie22
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To: LeGrande; RegulatorCountry

God is omnipotent.

Messing with the definitions creates a false premise which will get you a wrong answer.

You cannot disprove God. It’s not possible. And you haven’t falsified anything, either.

Tell me, why are you so interested in disproving God and trying to dissuade people from believing in Him?

What’s it to you whether people believe or not? How is it hurting you any?


178 posted on 01/09/2010 5:42:48 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: LeGrande

Thank you for your reply. It actually helped answer a few questions.

I too found the difference between the beliefs and facts to be disconcerting. That is why I left, but I have continued to be amazed by the same disconnect everywhere I look.

- - - - - - -

You are welcome.

I understand, that for some, the idea of having faith necessitates the dismissal of the so-called differences between said faith and “reality”. And in some cases that is true, I suppose.

My current primary research area is Medieval hagiography, and many of the experiences of the mystics require a “willing suspension of disbelief” even among the faithful.

However, that does not necessarily mean that all faith requires such. Most conflicts or controversies, especially within much of the history/doctrine of traditional Christianity, Judaism, and Buddhism can be explained satisfactorily.

Don’t get me wrong, Christian Church History stinks and there have been many wrong things done and claimed in the name of Christianity, but that does not mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water.

Christianity is about Christ, separate from the Church Militant and more and more Christians are recognizing problems in our history and dealing with them. For the most part, practicing Christians do not whitewash nor manipulate (including destruction of sources) that are considered controversial or embarrassing.

My problem with the LDS faith is that they deliberately lie and mislead their own followers as well as outsiders. I have seen firsthand how they whitewash their history, remove sources, edit microfilms, and manipulate their members. The LDS faith, IMO, be better off and would have a much less apostasy rate, if the leaders were up front about the problems and deceptions of their church. Theoretically, they could admit there are multiple contradictory “first vision” accounts, that certain doctrines were taught and believed by many but are NO longer considered doctrine, and develop a consistent systematic theology that would solidify their doctrine. Furthermore, the dismissal of the idea of a “prophet”, with the impression/belief of infallibility could be an “out” for many issues, including the contradictions in teachings.

However, that would flatten the LDS church doctrinally and philosophically. It would require them to give up the BoM (other than as a 19th C. religious work), the D&C (other than as a group of teachings), the PGP, their claims of priesthood, and the claim of being the only true “restored” church. It would also require less control of their membership and a more lenient stance of the development of doctrine.

BTW, have you ever read any of Lee Strobel’s books? He was a journalist started off seeing the same “disconnect” and as an atheist. A couple of his books are interviews with philosophers and theologians and their answers to his issues. They are worth a read, even if you do not agree with his conclusions.

And I apologize if this is a little rambling. Painkillers kicking in. :)


179 posted on 01/09/2010 7:40:59 PM PST by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: ejonesie22

everyone needs a hobby...


180 posted on 01/09/2010 7:50:29 PM PST by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: LeGrande
This is actually the more interesting part and confirmed by Einstein, light, life and matter are one and the same.

I'm sure you have a scientific article, reference or link on this.

181 posted on 01/09/2010 8:07:23 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: reaganaut; ejonesie22

Sometimes it’s a slow night on FR and boredom kicks in....


182 posted on 01/09/2010 8:10:07 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
You cannot disprove God. It’s not possible. And you haven’t falsified anything, either.

I have certainly falsified the Christian concept of God : )

Tell me, why are you so interested in disproving God and trying to dissuade people from believing in Him?

Have you noticed that with rare exceptions (regarding religion anyway) you only see me on Anti-Mormon threads? I simply enjoy having fun at the expense of anti Mormon Cabal members like yourself : ) As for dissuading people from believing in God, that is not my intent nor do I think that has occurred, at least I hope not anyway.

What’s it to you whether people believe or not? How is it hurting you any?

It doesn't bother me at all. In case you haven't noticed, I am generally defending a certain belief in God (Mormonism) by pointing out the ignorance and inconsistency of the anti Mormons. The vast majority of my family, friends and neighbors are Mormons and except for differences in religious beliefs I agree with them in most other things especially conservative political views.

I happen to believe that faith in God is a good thing for most people. Atheism provides no answers or strength when things are going bad. Atheism's only solace is scraps of truth, a meager fare indeed.

183 posted on 01/09/2010 8:11:19 PM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: Godzilla

That’s presuming a lot.....


184 posted on 01/09/2010 8:11:21 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: LeGrande; reaganaut
I have certainly falsified the Christian concept of God : )

No, you haven't, but you're entitled to your opinion anyway, even if it is wrong.

As for dissuading people from believing in God, that is not my intent nor do I think that has occurred, at least I hope not anyway.

You sure go to great lengths to *prove* that He doesn't exist, from what you call logic to trying to demonstrate that prophecy hasn't been fulfilled for someone who claims to not trying to dissuade people from their faith.

If you're not trying to convince others that God doesn't exist, then who are you trying to convince? Yourself?

In case you haven't noticed, I am generally defending a certain belief in God (Mormonism) by pointing out the ignorance and inconsistency of the anti Mormons.

No, I haven't noticed. Likely, neither has anyone else since what you are claiming you are doing isn't coming across that way.

So, how is claiming that you falsified the concept of the Mormon god defending the belief of Mormonism? And how is claiming that you falsified the idea of the Biblical God pointing out ignorance and inconsistency of the "anti Mormons" (who don't exist except as a construct in the anti-anti's minds.

If any God doesn't exist, why defend the belief in one over the belief in another?

What about the inconsistencies of Mormonism? Why not point out them as well?

If you want to point out the inconsistencies of those you label as *anti-Mormons* then you need to provide concrete examples of how their behavior is inconsistent with what the Bible teaches. Claiming that falsifying God or the idea of God or the concept of God, doesn't accomplish what you claim you are trying to accomplish.

185 posted on 01/09/2010 8:27:55 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom; ejonesie22

Sometimes it’s a slow night on FR and boredom kicks in....

- - — — -
Or a slow week even....


186 posted on 01/09/2010 8:41:07 PM PST by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Godzilla
I'm sure you have a scientific article, reference or link on this.

H¥=E¥ or the familiar m = mo/√(1-v2/c2) it is just the standard fare. Is there something in particular that you don't understand?

187 posted on 01/09/2010 8:48:29 PM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: reaganaut
I agree with much of what you wrote especially the "certain doctrines were taught and believed by many but are NO longer considered doctrine," I was continually surprised by what I had thought to be doctrine, but upon examination of the scriptures or history turned out not to be the case.

But and this is an interesting but :) my examination (I also had total access to all church records) vindicated Smith more often than not. But it deviated greatly from the 'official' history. For example, the Saints weren't driven from Missouri because of Religious prosecution per se, it was because they weren't slave holders. Obviously the Church prefers religious prosecution as the cause (nothing like being persecuted to unite people) and the modern persecutors preferred polygamy. The truth never stood a chance : ) I saw stuff like that over and over again (and still do, everywhere else).

Don’t get me wrong, Christian Church History stinks and there have been many wrong things done and claimed in the name of Christianity, but that does not mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water.

Why not? Saying the Christian history stinks is being extremely polite. I studied the history not from the perspective of religion but from the history of warfare and found it hard to sympathize with the "Christians".

BTW, have you ever read any of Lee Strobel’s books?

Nah, I haven't read a religious book in years. I prefer history, science and fiction now.

188 posted on 01/09/2010 9:45:17 PM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: LeGrande
That is correct. God is an idea that man created.


189 posted on 01/10/2010 4:33:43 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: LeGrande
So it should be trivial to build a mass that can't be moved right?

If YOU say so; I guess it is.

190 posted on 01/10/2010 4:34:40 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: LeGrande
 
I am subtly making fun of all those people who see images of Christ or Mary on a potato or burnt toast : )
 

191 posted on 01/10/2010 4:36:16 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: reaganaut
 
My current primary research area is Medieval hagiography, and many of the experiences of the mystics require a “willing suspension of disbelief” even among the faithful.
 
 
Beware the Magic STONE!!!
 
 

192 posted on 01/10/2010 4:39:32 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: LeGrande
I have certainly falsified the Christian concept of God
 
You HAVE??

 
 

193 posted on 01/10/2010 4:42:11 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: LeGrande
New caption for above:

Atheism provides no answers or strength when things are going bad. Atheism's only solace is scraps of truth, a meager fare indeed.

194 posted on 01/10/2010 4:43:18 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: LeGrande
Why didn't I think of that before!!
195 posted on 01/10/2010 4:44:27 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: LeGrande
(I also had total access to all church records)

WOW!!!

196 posted on 01/10/2010 4:45:23 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
If YOU say so; I guess it is.

For an omnipotent being of course : )

197 posted on 01/10/2010 5:29:24 AM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: LeGrande

Like I said, you can provide an appropriate scientific reference from a document.


198 posted on 01/10/2010 6:35:04 AM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Godzilla
Like I said, you can provide an appropriate scientific reference from a document.

Hmm, I gave you Feynman's preferred forms of Shrodinger's and Einstein's equations. For some odd reason I thought you capable of grasping their significance, apparently I was mistaken.

Let me explain it in simple terms that anyone of reasonable intelligence should be able to understand. Between the two equations we have a simple principle and that is that energy and mass are both wave functions and interchangeable. In other words light and matter are both wave functions, i.e. the same thing.

So what kind of references would you like? I am partial to books like the New Quantum Universe or The Feynman Lectures on Physics. You may want to start with Feyman's chapter on the Special Theory of Relativity. Those are both relatively basic sources that can get you pointed in the right direction.

199 posted on 01/10/2010 7:58:00 AM PST by LeGrande (The government wants to take over the entire Health Care industry to fix Medicare and Medicaid.)
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To: LeGrande

Incorrect, I want the link that includes “life”. Mass and energy along with wave theory are old school.


200 posted on 01/10/2010 8:01:24 AM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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