Posted on 01/05/2010 5:03:06 AM PST by thackney
I support no tax credits for anybody.
OK...
you support tax credits for certain industries.
Really? I had no idea. Where did I post that?
I say that gasoline/diesel would be 6 to 10 bucks without our tax dollars supporting Oil companies.
...based on the exhaustive research you conducted while completing your PhD in economics, no doubt.
I say that food would be 100 to 200 percent higher in price without subsidies.
...based on the research you conducted while compiling your Master's thesis.
I say that ethanol (w/o ANY subsidies) would be a cheaper alternative to gasoline (because, mainly, we have a viable infrastructure to manufacture it) and that it could bring a revenue stream to farmers that surely would feel the pinch due lost farming subsidies.
Wow. This whole "make stuff up as you go" approach is certainly liberating, isn't it?
Corn is what? 3 x higher than prices in 1950..Cars are 10 to 30 times higher, homes are 20 to 50 times higher...the list goes on.
Yeah, we should kill those government subsidies for home builders too!
Oh.... wait... Never mind.
I dont care if we are talking about ethanol or haircuts, if you are a capitalist, then the market needs to decide the price of a product, not us, as servants to a government that decides on “our behalf” what is the best thing to subsidize.
Guess what, FRiend? It's a bit more complicated than the outline you've given.
Why do you argue everything backward, like a liberal?
It's the ALTERNATIVE ENERGY sources that get subsidies, not petroleum. Your insistance that Big Oil gets taxpayer subsidies is absolutely, completely, laughably false. It's doubly absurd when you consider that there would be nearly NOTHING in the way of Ethanol fuel projects or wind farms without THEIR government subsidies.
Why project the sins of alternative energy's daydreams onto the real, proven economics of petroleum?
All your claims are just plain false. There's no other way to put it.
I like the way you put things in perspective.
I tried to reason with him but he avoided my direct questions and went after oil companies.
Guys like that think oil is something unnatural when it actually is God’s blessing He gave us as natural as mining salt from the ocean.
Here’s another tag with substance I did not throw at him as he did not seem reasonable enough to accept it.
http://www.marshall.org/pdf/materials/472.pdf
None of the protein in corn is lost in the distillation of ethanol. In fact the protein in the distillers dried grain is more readily digested by animals than the protein was in the raw corn to begin with.
Yes that concentrated protein in the distillers grain
is great for putting on the meat, and many millions of
tons are produced, even enough to sell overseas.
bestintxas— There is no price supports on most farm
commodities as prices are high enough to be above
support level.The reason they are higher than support
levels is energy costs drive up fuel and fertilizer,
and all farm inputs, so the price has to be up
some, compared to 15 years ago, to even
allow the farmer to produce it.And oil companies do
get much more in depletion and tax credits, for their
whole operations, than farmers ever got even when
farm prices were low and price supports were paid.
By 5-10 times as much. Oil companies have congress
bought just like drug and insurance companies do.
From the time there was taxes oil companies have
got huge credits.An the silly irony is people keep
talking about ethanol and farm subsidies, when it is
the oil companies are getting a tax credit.......
TO USE A FARM PRODUCT.......
Some think market running things completely with 10 buck
hamburg, 15 buck gas would things right. Well only top
10% could live at that level,and the rest would starve,
meaning in short time, none produced at any cost
as labor force in that bottom 90% would be dead.
Everyone can’t be paid, working or not,
200 grand a year, to afford those prices.
Ed Hubel.
“bestintxas— There is no price supports on most farm
commodities as prices are high enough to be above
support level.The reason they are higher than support
levels is energy costs drive up fuel and fertilizer,
and all farm inputs, so the price has to be up
some, compared to 15 years ago, to even
allow the farmer to produce it.And oil companies do
get much more in depletion and tax credits, for their
whole operations, than farmers ever got even when
farm prices were low and price supports were paid.
By 5-10 times as much. Oil companies have congress
bought just like drug and insurance companies do.
From the time there was taxes oil companies have
got huge credits.An the silly irony is people keep
talking about ethanol and farm subsidies, when it is
the oil companies are getting a tax credit.......”
I’ll say it again, strip away any type of tax credit to oil companies and they will hurt but just a few will go belly up. Credits simply are, on a basis of total enterprise value, not significant compared to what the credits and subsidies are for ethanol activities.
There was insignificant amounts of biofuels prior to the biofuels credits and the federal mandates. That alone tells one there is no basis for competitiveness in the marketplace.
Go ahead and look at the numbers: the credit alone on ethanol last year was $0.45 per gallon. That represents at least a 25% credit subsidy of a gallon of gas(less taxes).
That is far, far more than what oil and gas companies supposely get tax credits for. Furthermore, there is no mandate to use oil and gas, as there is for biofuels.
If Congress is bought and paid for by oil companies, I wish they would show it. All I ever see is a never ending castigation of them whenever prices go up and shouts of “Big Oil”(which is a lie as there are only 3 majors left in this country with a combined market share of less than 50%.)
For some time now, the leader of the ethanol movement ADM was branded by the Cato Institute as the largest corporate welfare recipient in the country’s history.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-241.html
What is really ironic on your comments is that you noted that energy costs are up for the farmer, but do not even realize that it is partially due to the price supports for the production of ethanol which add to it.
Energy is not in a vacuum. It does not magically rise and fall. Its price is the product of supply, demand, and the costs to produce.
Subsidization of ethanol adds to that cost of production of energy bigtime.
The blending credit was a dime more and congress
keeps lowering it. And will lower it more and over a
few years may be gone. And I look at the results at
the farm, the feedlot, and the pump. A miniscule amount
of credit(about 4 billion a year) compared to the trillions
handed out by the gov(not credits but tax dollars) gives
us all—
One— A lower pump price of gas that allows the consumer
to save 4 billion bucks every 2-3 weeks....
Two—Farmers with a better market that has raised prices
at the farm, of commodities so that about 15 billion
of subsidies don’t have to be paid.And the farmers price
of corn has settled at less than half of the highs
that was driven up by speculators, now that speculators
are mostly broke.
Three- With plenty of high protein feed, raising our meat
is easier, and with speculators gone the store price of
beef, hamburg is about the same as before the
speculative bubble.
Four— taking away all the blending credit won’t hurt farmers or ethanol companies. If they sold
ethanol for $1.35 instead $1.80, if the 45 cents goes away
what is effect. The $1.80 for ethanol is a byproduct
that brought in another $2.50 worth to company for a
total of about $4.30, so losing 45 cents won’t hurt, if
they lose it. The ethanol price dropped over a dollar
and most plants are still going.
Two big refining oil companies have bought
whole bunches of ethanol plants to run, and refiners
understand that thet make money selling product and
ethanol adds volumne, that they didn’t have to fight green
asswipes to build a plant for, or buy as much from the
terrorist ME.Ed Hubel.
To complete a thought about previous post,
if the blending credit was all phased out, most
companies would still buy the ethanol as I think
most have given up on trying to fight the
prohibitions on producing large amounts of oil
here in North America,and with the huge problem
in getting more refineries going, and will
just will go along with the libs/greens..
As shown by oil refiners setting up or buying
their own ethanol plants.
And conservatives can’t keep beating on ethanol
and farmers, as I know that in my area, some farm
areas, are fed up hearing this and voted
dem last year.This is what they say, IE, people
get in an uproar over 4 billion in tax credits,
but yet most of same people supported a trillion
spent for Irag.I don’t agree with the last
sentiment, but they feel that way. Ed Hubel
“Two big refining oil companies have bought
whole bunches of ethanol plants to run, and refiners
understand that thet make money selling product and
ethanol adds volumne, that they didn’t have to fight green
asswipes to build a plant for, or buy as much from the
terrorist ME.Ed Hubel.”
Ethanol use is a mandate. Period. That means if you wish to sell gasoline you have to use it. What stupid oil company would not build ethanol plants under that mandate?
You can achieve a lot more self sufficiency if you allowed companies to drill for oil and gas in more area in this country, promoted clean coal and accelerated nuclear power.
You do NOT have to subsidize these industries as they would have to compete in the marketplace, unlike biofuels which cannot.
See this article from the prestigious GeorgeMarshall Institute. http://www.marshall.org/pdf/materials/472.pdf
Ethanol is extracted without destroying the food value of the grain. This myth about competing with food is just a propaganda tool.
I personally am glad it is a mandate as it
makes my vehicles run better with less soot
and hydrocarbons coming out of the tailpipe,
without having to buy premium grades.
Here in Michigan our air is actually clean
enough to see many miles, when years ago we
couldn’t, and this improvement partly due
to ethanol in the gas mix.
I would like to see unlimited drilling in US also,
and more nuclear plants, gas & coal fired plants,
and more refineries. pipelines from Alaska,
as well as ethanol added to supplementgas, as I
feel we also could be energy independent.
With a drop in energy costs, which would be the
biggest stimulus for our economy.
M-gal—That is right and the anti ethanol campaign
was started in 2007-8 and funded by the National Grocers
Alliance to try to shift blame for food prices going
up away from them.Bunch of crooks.
Ed Hubel
“I personally am glad it is a mandate”
Then you are the kind of person who supports govt healthcare, onerous taxation and exapnisve govt.
We know you and people like you as liberals, or those who despise freedom.
By the way, if you ever read any posts at all on ethanol usage, you will find that it has a lot more serious environmental effects than that of burning plain old gasoline.
Good luck with your lunatic liberal dreams, friend.
The tax credits and depletion allowances oil
companies get on oil operations are 15-20
times what that ethanol blending credit is,
so they get helped at about the same or higher
percentage as ethanol does. And the ethanol credit
is being brought down.It all should go as the ethanol
plants can take 45 cents less for ethanol from
oil guys and part of them wouldn’t drop it at all
as they need the volumne.Every ethanol gallon represents
about $4.30 of feed and ethanol product and if
45 cents was cut they’d still be operating. It won’t
hurt them.
The tax credits and depletion allowance for other oil company operations should be kept as they are needed
to help develope new supplies.
Your other silly post about me being liberal is a joke.
I’ve been a conservative logger and farmer, now a
wildcat cartridge redneck gun nut. I supported the
Klamath farmers against the greens who shut off their
water, with time and money.Iown the Klamath bucket
brigade Michigan bucket.
Ive been in the ethanol squabbles on FR for 3 years
now, and here we are talking transportation and energy,
and just because I think ethanol is a good way to
improve gasoline burning cleaner, believe in road
taxes for road upkeep, believe in k-12 education that we
all work to pay for, doesn’t make me a lib.
Just google hubel458.
A 4billion credit that saves us that much cash at the
pump every 3 weeks, and our motors run cleaner——
is the same as paying road tax to have decent, passable,
smoother, roads, that also cut the repairs on my vehicles
by more than what road tax I pay.
Some of you seem to cut off your nose to spite your face
with some these issues. Ed Hubel
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