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To: cynwoody; SvenMagnussen
"Your document provides further evidence of his Hawaiian birth. Which makes him a natural born citizen, eligible to be president."

Let's assume, for the sake of your argument, that he was born in HI.

Do you then, believe that someone born a subject of the British crown, born in HI, is a Natural Born Citizen of the US? That is, someone born with multiple citizenship's?

140 posted on 01/12/2010 9:40:35 AM PST by rxsid (HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'S STATUS BE "GOVERNED" BY GREAT BRITAIN? - Leo Donofrio (2009))
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To: rxsid; Fred Nerks; LucyT; InspectorSmith; BP2; Kenny Bunk; Red Steel; STARWISE; Seizethecarp; ...
I am concerned with several posts on this thread by the poster Seizethecarp because a modest amount of analysis of the actual law as reported reveals that those posts do not state the law correctly. What the correct law is can be shown by reference to clear authority and so I post some of that authority along with a brief discussion to make clear the actual law is as applicable in the Hollister case. I believe it will be helpful to do so to those who are following this matter attentively and who wish to know what the law is.

The first of these assertions is mentioned in several posts. It is the assertion that “`Lack of claim’ is an element of standing applied to the plaintiff, not an element of jurisdiction applied to the court.” See post 95 above. A little bit of inquiry shows that this is not the law. “Lack of claim” under Rule 12 (b)(6) is separate from standing and standing is not an element of lack of claim since the two things, under the law, are distinct.

This can easily seen by examining the opinion of the Supreme Court in the well-known case of Simon v. Eastern Kentucky Welfare Rights Organization, 426 U.S. 26, 37-38 (1976), at a point where it quotes on point regarding standing from the even better known case of Flast v. Cohen, 392 U.S. 83 (1968). Here is what it said about standing to distinguish it clearly from other doctrines such as failure to state a claim:

No principle is more fundamental to the judiciary’s proper role in our system of government that the constitutional limitation of federal-court jurisdiction to actual cases or controversies. See Flast v. Cohen, 392 U.s. 83, 95, 88 S.Ct. 1942, 1950, 20 L.Ed.947, 958 (1968). The concept of standing is part of this limitation. Unlike other associated doctrines, for example, that which restrains federal courts from deciding political questions, standing “focuses on the party seeking to get his complaint before a federal court and not on the issues he wishes to have adjudicated.” Id., at 99, 88 S.Ct. at 1952, 20 L.Ed.2d at 961.

In the Hollister case Judge Robertson, in his opinion of March 5, 2009, stated that he had jurisdiction because of the interpleader statute and then dismissed the case, he specifically stated, for failure to state a claim under Rule 12(b)(6). Thus, he focused on the issues that Colonel Hollister was seeking to focus the court’s attention on and not on Colonel Hollister as a party. In order to dismiss for that reason he had to consider with the claim of Colonel Hollister was meritorious. As his opinion reveals his principal focus was on what he found to be a lack of tangible property as an interpleader “stake.” This preoccupation was with the merits of the interpleader claim of Colonel Hollister and not with any issue involving Colonel Hollister as a claimant. It was on the claim and not the party.

That Judge Robertson was thus assuming standing by stating that he, as the judge, had jurisdiction, was recognized by Robert F. Bauer, who was at that point counsel for the defendants Soetoro/Obama and Biden on the appeal when he filed his original opposition brief for the defendants as appellees prior to the briefing being rescheduled. This is document 1204814 on the appellate docket in the case, filed September 9, 2009. On page 21 Bauer begins his argument that Colonel Hollister had no standing by claiming that Judge Robertson had assumed he had jurisdiction without analysis and thus, by necessary implication, had failed to analyze standing For Bauer then spends a good deal of argument claiming lack of Article III standing. Of course, any judge at any level may consider standing at any point. But that is not to say that standing is the same as the claim itself or is an element of it.

This distinction between a Rule 12(b)(6) failure to state a claim and standing or any other issue dealing with the claimant rather than the claims has been made in every court that has looked at the issue. There is no law supporting the idea that standing is an element of a claim. It is always addressed as an issue of the right of the claimant to pursue the claim because of the claimant’s status, not the content of his claim. In Peckmann v. Thompson, 966 F.2d 295, 297 (7th Cir.1995) for example, the 7th Circuit found that even if a Rule 12(b)(1) motion were an “indirect” attack on the “merits” of the claim it could be treated as a Rule 12(b)(6) motion for dismissal because of failure to state a claim. This emphasized that Rule 12(b)(6) failure to state a claim motions focus on the merits.

Similarly, in Reeves v. Guifridda, 756 F.2d 1141, 1143 (5th Cir.1985) the 5th Circuit found that a motion, because it went to the merits, had to be treated as a Rule 12(b)(6) motion about whether or not there was a failure to state a claim and considered the merits, finding that a claim had been stated. In an earlier case, Whiting v. Seyfrit, 203 F.2d 773, 774 (7th Cir.1953) the 7th Circuit treated a motion to dismiss a pro se complaint brought charging a conspiracy in violation of constitutional rights where the defendants’ dismissal motion was on the grounds that the complaint “failed to state a cause of action under the Constitution or laws of the United States” as a Rule 12(b)(6) motion to dismiss for failure to state a claim. The Supreme Court again emphasized the distinction between jurisdictional arguments such as lack of standing and claims a few years ago when it held that the statute of limitations defense is not jurisdictional but goes to the merits in the case of Day v. McDonough, 547 U.S. 198, 205 (2006).

For those who wish to see the man in the White House get away with trashing the Constitution and our system of law based on it, of course, the law does not matter, but for those who do claim to be concerned it is imperative that such errors of law not be spread abroad. It is only if judges believe that they are being watched to see if they choose to actually apply the law that we will see the Rule of Law have a chance of prevailing.

143 posted on 01/12/2010 11:45:43 AM PST by AmericanVictory (Should we be more like them or they more like we used to be?)
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