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City to vote on assault rifle buy; Cops want an M-4 in every patrol car
El Paso, Inc. ^ | Timothy Roberts

Posted on 01/13/2010 3:15:33 PM PST by greatdefender

Members of the El Paso City Council appear to favor the purchase of over 1,000 assault rifles for the police department, which says it needs them to protect the city from increasingly better armed criminals.

The council will be asked on Tuesday to approve the purchase of 1,145 assault rifles at a cost of $772,646. That would supply all patrol officers with the civilian version of the M-4 military rifle. The lowest bid is from recommended bidder GT Distributors Inc. of Austin.

The money would come from a federal grant of up to $899,287, funds targeted at stimulating the economy.

The case for the purchase is usually couched in terms of the drug-cartel violence in Juárez.

“We definitely don’t want our police officers to be outgunned by any cartel operatives who might come over to El Paso,” says El Paso Mayor John Cook.

But in the wake of shootings at Fort Hood and incidents here involving soldiers, some council members say they are also concerned about errant soldiers.

Peter Pacillas, assistant chief for training and special operations, does not single out soldiers for concern. He says, “Anybody who has the capability of using a high-caliber weapon is a concern for us.”

Gun seizures

Three incidents in El Paso involving soldiers last year underscore those concerns. In each, soldiers used handguns, but police say the logical defense would be a rifle capable of shooting accurately over a significant distance.

Last April, a Chapin High School student was killed by a solider who was firing from across the street. The soldier, according to the Army’s Criminal Investigation Division, used a handgun. He was charged with murder.

In August, a solider was charged with shooting another solider at an El Paso bar. That, too involved a hand gun, according to the CID.

But perhaps the most notorious case cam in June, when an 18-year-old soldier stationed at Fort Bliss was charged in connection with the contract killing of a Mexican drug cartel lieutenant who also was a police informant. According to the El Paso Police Department, Michael Jackson Apodaca used a semi-automatic handgun.

According to statistics kept by the police department, the total number of guns seized by the police during searches and arrests has dropped over the last three years. What is worrisome, police say, is the increase in the percentage of those guns that are automatic or semi-automatic. Being able to fire more lead in a short period of time makes the criminal more dangerous.

Police seized 287 weapons in 2007, 265 in 2008 and only 253 in 2009. But the percentage of those weapons that are automatic or semi-automatic rose from 46.7 percent in 2007, to 50.2 percent in 2008, and to 59.7 percent in 2009.

“I feel comfortable with the request,” says Beto O’Rourke, city representative for the Westside District 8. “We are not trying to outgun the people with guns in our community, but to protect the public.”

Gang worries

Susie Byrd, District 2 representative, says she still has some questions.

“You always want police to approach any situation with an abundance of caution,” she says. “Having big assault rifles might embolden less cautious behavior.”

But she says she also worries about the violence across the border and the possible impact of military gangs.

According to the National Gang Threat Assessment for 2009, issued by the U.S. Department of Justice, the number of gang members who are in or who have come out of the military is unknown.

But, the report says, “the threat that (gang members with military training) pose to law enforcement is potentially significant, particularly if gang members trained in weapons, tactics and planning pass this instruction on to other gang members.”

A spokesman for the Army’s Criminal Investigation Division acknowledges the presence of criminal gangs in the military, but says the problem is not rampant.

“We certainly recognize this is a serious issue, and each incident or credible allegation will be fully investigated,” says Chris Grey, Army CID chief of public affairs.

The population increase caused by expansion at Fort Bliss may become a factor in crime levels, says city Rep. Steve Ortega, District 7.

“If you add to that a population coming back from an extremely violent environment integrating with the civilian population, we want to make sure that the police department has all the resources it needs to make us the safest city in the nation.”

For West Side District 1 Rep. Ann Morgan Lilly, the decision was relatively easy.

“If the police are asking for them (the assault rifles) and need them, that’s OK,” she says. “(Police Chief) Greg Allen never asks for anything he doesn’t need.”

If council approves the purchase, the M-4s could be here in 90 days. Police officials say all officers will receive 40 hours of training before putting the weapons in the locked racks of their patrol car trunks.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: banglist; city; m4; police
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1 posted on 01/13/2010 3:15:37 PM PST by greatdefender
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To: greatdefender

I want an M-4 in each of my vehicles (or two, or three) ;-)


2 posted on 01/13/2010 3:17:34 PM PST by SoldierDad (Proud Dad of a U.S. Army Infantry Soldier whose wife is expecting twins SONS.)
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To: greatdefender

Not really sure about the need for an M-4 in every car, but $674.80 per rifle is at least a reasonable price.


3 posted on 01/13/2010 3:17:53 PM PST by Domandred (Fdisk, format, and reinstall the entire .gov system.)
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To: Domandred

I believe, given what is happening in Cd. Juarez and given what has happened in El Paso already, that this is a smart move. I am glad the price is right.


4 posted on 01/13/2010 3:20:41 PM PST by La Lydia
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To: greatdefender

Here again we have Federal Funds being used to up arm the local police. Bad Idea. If the city of El Paso and it’s elected leaders want to arm the police to that level fine, let them do it with local money. God himself, and Mayors office knows what strings are attached to those M4’s, and the Federal money that bought them. I for one don’t want the local governments armed like the 101st Airborne.


5 posted on 01/13/2010 3:20:50 PM PST by DariusBane (Even the Rocks shall cry out "Hobamma to the Highest")
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To: greatdefender

Get rid of the illegals and enforce the borders will cut down on the violence. Might need all those evil assault rifles for the border, though.


6 posted on 01/13/2010 3:21:27 PM PST by dynachrome (Barack Hussein Obama yunikku khinaaziir!)
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To: greatdefender

Did anyone notice how an article about guns became an article about soldiers shooting people?


7 posted on 01/13/2010 3:23:52 PM PST by Waverunner ( "Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too." Voltaire)
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To: greatdefender

A high-caliber weapon would be .408 and up.

Anybody can use a firearm. The question is about proficiency.


8 posted on 01/13/2010 3:26:38 PM PST by wastedyears (If I'm going out, I'm going out like Major Kong.)
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To: dynachrome

You don’t need M4’s if you could at least mine the border with bouncing betty’s...


9 posted on 01/13/2010 3:27:00 PM PST by max americana
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To: DariusBane

SO instead you want to see dead police?
in some instances the police have to armed like this. It isnt mayberry there.
I also believe that honest people have the same right to buy the rifles themselves to defend hearth and home.


10 posted on 01/13/2010 3:27:46 PM PST by Yorlik803 (better to die on your feet than live on your knees.)
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To: greatdefender

The M-4 has a shorter barrel than the M-16. Maybe the 16’s would be a bit more accurate?


11 posted on 01/13/2010 3:30:41 PM PST by rbosque (11 year Freeper! Stock up on weapons while you have the chance.)
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To: DariusBane

SEMI-automatic rifles do not, in any way, arm somebody “like the 101st Airborne”.

I have THREE of these rifles, in various configurations.

IMHO, EVERY cop should have access to a semi-automatic rifle, if trained.


12 posted on 01/13/2010 3:33:06 PM PST by SJSAMPLE
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To: DariusBane

SEMI-automatic rifles do not, in any way, arm somebody “like the 101st Airborne”.

I have THREE of these rifles, in various configurations.

IMHO, EVERY cop should have access to a semi-automatic rifle, if trained.


13 posted on 01/13/2010 3:33:07 PM PST by SJSAMPLE
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To: Domandred
but $674.80 per rifle is at least a reasonable price.

That's a great price. Just the upper assembly alone is selling for that.

14 posted on 01/13/2010 3:33:10 PM PST by Nachoman (Think of life as an adventure you don't survive.)
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To: rbosque

Not by any appreciable measure.
The longer sight radius helps at the far end of the rifle’s effective range, but the use of optics (compact scopes or red-dot sights) negate this advantage. And the M-4 is much more compact for somebody in a vehicle.


15 posted on 01/13/2010 3:35:05 PM PST by SJSAMPLE
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To: rbosque
M4 is just fine. The barrel length is usually 16" and it's mainly a close-quarters weapon. It will still reach out and touch someone at 500 yards.

Personally, I'm a fan of the mid-lengths and that's what I'm using on my current build.
16 posted on 01/13/2010 3:37:05 PM PST by randomhero97 ("First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow!" - Ash)
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To: SJSAMPLE

My son is building an M-16, he bought the lower trigger housing group. I was thinking of doing the same, particularly since we live in California and they’re Nazis here. The A4 version of he M-4 would be nice.


17 posted on 01/13/2010 3:38:13 PM PST by rbosque (11 year Freeper! Stock up on weapons while you have the chance.)
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To: DariusBane
If the city of El Paso and it’s elected leaders want to arm the police to that level fine, let them do it with local money.

Actually if you would just let them carry one most officers would purchase their own. You would also have less lost or stolen weapons if the officer owned it.

18 posted on 01/13/2010 3:38:21 PM PST by usurper (Liberals GET OFF MY LAWN)
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To: SJSAMPLE
SEMI-automatic rifles do not, in any way, arm somebody “like the 101st Airborne”.

Well, if they start outfitting SAWs in departments then I might start getting concerned.
19 posted on 01/13/2010 3:38:31 PM PST by randomhero97 ("First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow!" - Ash)
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To: greatdefender

Why do so many, including some LEOs, have such a hard-on for the M4? Short barrel equals crazy muzzle blast and a huge loss of ballistic energy from a cartridge with none to spare. Our guys who carry this weapon overseas have lots of other stuff including crew-served and explosive ordnance that will reach out to the bad guys.

For a domestic LEO who just might get caught out all by himself there are better rifles than the M4 to hunker down with.


20 posted on 01/13/2010 3:39:50 PM PST by SBprone
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To: Yorlik803; SJSAMPLE

“so you want to see dead police?” Oh geez, not this crap again. The Following is Sarcasm: Yes Yorlik803 I have always wanted to see dead police. I am looking on the internet for snuff videos right now. The Preceding was Sarcasm.

1. Yes everyone and I mean everyone should own a semi auto, mag fed carbine. The Second Amendment requires that we be able to defend ourselves.
2. I said if the city of El Paso wants to buy the weapons without federal money fine, do that.
3. On a personal level I want the government less well armed than me. Because I don’t trust the government to have more power than me. The police are the strong arm of the government.

That’s not really all that controversial is it?


21 posted on 01/13/2010 3:40:15 PM PST by DariusBane (Even the Rocks shall cry out "Hobamma to the Highest")
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To: randomhero97

“Civilian version” is the 16” barrel, semi-auto, not a bad price at all. Looking at GT Dist. site, it’s a Bushmaster. Looks like typical LE price to me...


22 posted on 01/13/2010 3:40:53 PM PST by brushcop (SFC Sallie, CPL Long, LTHarris, SSG Brown, PVT Simmons KIA OIF lll&V, they died for you, honor them)
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To: greatdefender

If they need the firepower okay. But why buy such a lousy rifle?


23 posted on 01/13/2010 3:41:11 PM PST by Seruzawa (If you agree with the French raise your hand - If you are French raise both hands.)
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To: Seruzawa
But why buy such a lousy rifle?

What? This isn't your daddy's M16A1 from Nam, these have evolved into pretty reliable weapons.
24 posted on 01/13/2010 3:44:17 PM PST by randomhero97 ("First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow!" - Ash)
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To: Seruzawa

They could buy some of the very fine piston operated models. I was never happy with my M16, as it was pretty good through the first 3 mags, then got hot and unreliable. I believe that the gas piston on like the POF model would solve the problem. My next AR will be gas piston. (I know, lots of controversy on this issue).


25 posted on 01/13/2010 3:44:33 PM PST by DariusBane (Even the Rocks shall cry out "Hobamma to the Highest")
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To: brushcop

I wish they would buy built 6.8SPC M4 configured rifles that way there would more 6.8 ammo in production. I want to buy an upper in 6.8 but it’s hard to find ammo and I don’t reload as of yet.


26 posted on 01/13/2010 3:46:33 PM PST by randomhero97 ("First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow!" - Ash)
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To: DariusBane

Like I said, get a mid-length upper and many of your problems will be solved.


27 posted on 01/13/2010 3:47:55 PM PST by randomhero97 ("First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow!" - Ash)
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To: greatdefender

Every cop want to look Tacti-Cool dont they....
I use a 16” barrel with the A2 stock,, not quite an M4gery.
Whats wrong with the Mini-14s they all had to have years ago?


28 posted on 01/13/2010 3:47:55 PM PST by ▀udda▀udd (7 days - 7 ways Guero >>> with a floating, shifting, ever changing persona.....)
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To: Domandred
Not really sure about the need for an M-4 in every car, but $674.80 per rifle is at least a reasonable price.

And the reason I can't get this price even if I buy 10 is because?????

29 posted on 01/13/2010 3:51:42 PM PST by MrPiper
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To: randomhero97

Maybe, but they are still jam prone and are .223.

FNFAL. Accept no substitute. LOL!


30 posted on 01/13/2010 3:53:05 PM PST by Seruzawa (If you agree with the French raise your hand - If you are French raise both hands.)
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To: DariusBane

“2. I said if the city of El Paso wants to buy the weapons without federal money fine, do that.
3. On a personal level I want the government less well armed than me. Because I don’t trust the government to have more power than me. The police are the strong arm of the government.

That’s not really all that controversial is it?”

I’m with you all the way.


31 posted on 01/13/2010 3:56:11 PM PST by dljordan (Psalm 109:8 "Let his days be few; and let another take his office. ")
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To: Seruzawa
There is 75gr and 77gr loads out there that are pretty devastating.

I've been thinking about getting a FAL, but I've read that parts quality has gone down the last couple of years. DSARMS has some nice STGs
32 posted on 01/13/2010 3:56:45 PM PST by randomhero97 ("First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow!" - Ash)
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To: randomhero97

Is there a web site that’ll help with building your own?


33 posted on 01/13/2010 3:58:21 PM PST by rbosque (11 year Freeper! Stock up on weapons while you have the chance.)
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To: greatdefender
Back in the Clinton Administration, our wonderful president destroyed thousands of M14 Rifles. This was stupidity squared, but not untypical of Bill Clinton.

I said at the time that the government could give these weapons to Law Enforcement at no cost. They could have been modified to be semi automatic for law enforcement purposes. If the police in the North Hollywood shootout had had just one of these rifles, the whole incident would have been over in no time.

These would be good weapons for our law enforcement at no charge. Now the police (tax payers) are going to have to pay top dollar for M4. What a waste Bill Clinton was.
34 posted on 01/13/2010 4:00:56 PM PST by truthguy (Good intentions are not enough!)
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To: greatdefender
“If you add to that a population coming back from an extremely violent environment integrating with the civilian population, we want to make sure that the police department has all the resources it needs to make us the safest city in the nation.”

Incompetano would be sooooo proud. They read her memo. They really did.

Secretary Of Homeland Security – Returning Veterans Pose Terrorist Threat

35 posted on 01/13/2010 4:01:05 PM PST by NonValueAdded ("'Diversity' is one of those words designed to absolve you of the need to think." Mark Steyn)
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To: randomhero97

It’s all in good fun.

I did carry the M16A1 in Nam, not my Daddy. So I can’t get over the experience and will never trust those suckers. However, seriously, if the police want firepower over drug gangs and body armor then I think they would be better off with M1As. The .308 is far more devastating and auto-fire is way overrated anyhow. Aimed .308 AP fire would put down gangbangers in pretty short order IMHO.


36 posted on 01/13/2010 4:03:25 PM PST by Seruzawa (If you agree with the French raise your hand - If you are French raise both hands.)
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To: Domandred
Not really sure about the need for an M-4 in every car, but $674.80 per rifle is at least a reasonable price.

Volume discount.

37 posted on 01/13/2010 4:05:52 PM PST by Doomonyou (Let them eat Lead.)
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To: rbosque
ar15.com

There are several tutorials there and a forum for any questions you have.
38 posted on 01/13/2010 4:13:15 PM PST by randomhero97 ("First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow!" - Ash)
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To: All

Nearly all police sniper shots have been under one hundred yards, so this rifle is just fine for those intermediate distances between pistol and a dedicated sniper rifle.

I have never heard of anyone who has been shot with 5.56 saying it didn’t hurt.

The females in our department prefer it over the shottie because of felt recoil.


39 posted on 01/13/2010 4:15:14 PM PST by Molon Labbie
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To: randomhero97

Thanks!


40 posted on 01/13/2010 4:18:43 PM PST by rbosque (11 year Freeper! Stock up on weapons while you have the chance.)
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To: Seruzawa
I did carry the M16A1 in Nam, not my Daddy.

Just joking with ya, my dad and his brothers are Nam vets as well. I have heard first hand accounts of special operators taking AKs off of dead VC and throwing their M16 out, lol.

I like the M1As, but I think the .308 cartridge is more for a main battle rifle while the 5.56/.223 is an intermediary round. The M1A Scout is a pretty sweet rifle, though.
41 posted on 01/13/2010 4:19:52 PM PST by randomhero97 ("First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow!" - Ash)
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To: Waverunner

Sure did...but not so much said about the kidnapping, drug-running Mexican SCUM Juarez cartels...the real threat.

According to the story...El Paso cops want these rifles to combat Ft Bliss soldiers with handguns.


42 posted on 01/13/2010 4:24:30 PM PST by Mister Muggles (.Seattle: A city full of Liberal men with vaginas.)
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To: Domandred
Not really sure about the need for an M-4 in every car, but $674.80 per rifle is at least a reasonable price.

Very reasonable indeed. That is for a volume purchase of course, but We The People could probably get them for ~$800 or so, absent the ban on them for mere citizens. Well maybe a bit more, at first, due to pent up demand. I paid about that for my semi-auto AR-15 carbine, but that was a kit plus separately purchased lower receiver. But if *I* can put one together, anyone can. It's actually pretty accurate too.

43 posted on 01/13/2010 4:35:11 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: DariusBane
I for one don’t want the local governments armed like the 101st Airborne.

The 101st had M203 grenade launchers, AT4 anti armor rockets, and lots of other goodies, including artillery and air support (rotary wing). Few departments woudl have any need for that stuff, but any did, it would be border cities, like El Paso.

Although guarding the border and preventing invasions, by foreign governments or other foreign entitites, is really the job of the Federal Government, per Article IV Section 4 of the Constitution. However, Article I, Section 10, does allow states to "engage in War", if actually invaded or in imminent danger that will not admit delay. Seems to fit the situation from Brownsville to San Diego. But that's a job for the Militia including it's organized components the National Guard and State Guard, not city cops.

44 posted on 01/13/2010 4:43:36 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: MrPiper
And the reason I can't get this price even if I buy 10 is because?????

They are buying around 1,000. Plus it's a different market. The civilian market has been Obamasized, that is heated up by fear of what Obama might do next, once he gets past the Health Care thing.

You could buy a kit, say from Model One For $535, plus around $130-175 for the stripped lower. and you'd come pretty close. The upper comes assembled, you have to assemble the lower, but it's not that hard, and several "how to" sites are available, mit der pictures!

Stag Arms shows their lower for $135, but that's FFL price. (I think I did pretty well at $150 (or was it $175, well still not bad considering folks were selling them for $225 at the same show.)

45 posted on 01/13/2010 5:16:16 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: randomhero97
M4 is just fine. The barrel length is usually 16" and it's mainly a close-quarters weapon

Actually a real M4 has a 14.5" barrel. Although there is a commando version with an 11.5" barrel.

46 posted on 01/13/2010 5:23:09 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: El Gato

To answers:

Number one: I said that no federal dollars with their nasty strings should be attached to up arming ANY local law enforcement.
Number Two: I am well qualified to understand the differences between the armament of an infantry unit vs ar15’s but thanks for the heads up anyway.
Number Three: It should not be controversial within the ranks of liberty loving small government types to express a distrust of a large, powerful well funded domestic police force. That should NOT be a controversial statement.

The 2nd Amendment, if properly exercised would take care of the need for a professionally armed, full time quasi military police force. I just like the local, city, county, state and federal government to always have that gnawing sense of doubt... “Can we take them?”


47 posted on 01/13/2010 5:30:01 PM PST by DariusBane (Even the Rocks shall cry out "Hobamma to the Highest")
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To: El Gato
You could buy a kit, say from Model One For $535....AR15?...no thanks...

I'll keep the TWO AK's I bought for that price years ago and my Remington 700 "deer rifle" for $300/ the close in work..... ;-)

48 posted on 01/13/2010 5:43:47 PM PST by MrPiper
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To: El Gato

Ah, good catch. I thought about it from a civilian standpoint.


49 posted on 01/13/2010 5:45:31 PM PST by randomhero97 ("First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow!" - Ash)
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To: rbosque
Is there a web site that’ll help with building your own?

Several. Here's one, Build Your Own AR15 that will sell you a step by step manual for $7. Cheap at twice the price IMHO. Although I used AR15.com and ShaneDaughtry.Com (real photos verses drawings) to assemble my lower. (Be sure to buy the pivot pin installation tool, it's cheap and makes the hardest step not the hardest at all). You'll also need the stock wrench or the multi wrench.

50 posted on 01/13/2010 5:46:44 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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