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Polish bishop accuses Jews of using Holocaust as propaganda
Haaretz ^ | 1-25-2010 | via Reuters

Posted on 01/25/2010 7:53:17 PM PST by smokingfrog

A leading Polish Catholic bishop caused a stir on Monday when he was quoted as saying that Jews had "expropriated" the Holocaust as a "propaganda weapon".

The comments by Bishop Tadeusz Pieronek, a former head of the Polish bishops' conference, prompted concern among Jewish leaders in both Poland and Italy after they were published on the conservative Italian Catholic website www.pontifex.roma.

Pieronek later went on Polish television to say his comments had been manipulated and he denied one phrase in which he was quoted as saying "the Holocaust as such is a Jewish invention".

He also said that he did not "authorise" the publication of the interview, which was still on the website on Monday evening.

"It is undeniable that the greatest number of dead in concentration camps were Jews but there are also Polish gypsies, Italians and Catholics on the list," he was quoted as saying.

On Wednesday some countries will mark International Holocaust Remembrance Day on the 65th anniversary of the liberation of the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Polish President Lech Kaczynski and ministers from many European countries are due to attend commemorative events at Auschwitz on Wednesday.

"It is not right to expropriate that tragedy for propaganda," Pieronek was quoted as saying, adding that memorial days should be held for the "victims of communism, for Catholics, for persecuted Christians and so on."

He continued: "But they, the Jews, enjoy good press because they have powerful financial means behind them, enormous power and the unconditional backing of the United States and this favors a certain arrogance that I find unbearable."

(Excerpt) Read more at haaretz.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Israel; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: auschwitz; holocaust; propaganda
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1 posted on 01/25/2010 7:53:18 PM PST by smokingfrog
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To: smokingfrog

Well, I might get flamed for this, but he has a point. 5,000,000 non-Jews died in the Holocaust and almost no one knows it. We only hear about the Jews, sometimes about Gypsies and homosexuals and that’s about it.


2 posted on 01/25/2010 7:56:13 PM PST by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: smokingfrog
"and this favors a certain arrogance that I find unbearable"

Sound like the pot calling the kettle black. Lets not talk about the wholesale slaughter by the Church of indigenous people of South America and Mexico.

3 posted on 01/25/2010 7:57:41 PM PST by guitarplayer1953 (Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to GOD! Thomas Jefferson)
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To: smokingfrog

There are, very sadly, some Jewish folks (even in the ADL itself) who hype this already horrendous tragedy, not for the sake of revising generally agreed historical statistics, but to keep on wringing money out of parties, even some of their own.


4 posted on 01/25/2010 7:58:22 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (I am in America but not of America (per bible: am in the world but not of it))
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Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: guitarplayer1953

They made the Aztec system go away.


6 posted on 01/25/2010 7:59:47 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (I am in America but not of America (per bible: am in the world but not of it))
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To: vladimir998

Yes but it was Stated and Planned policy to practice Genocide on the Jews.

Anyway this guy is an idiot.


7 posted on 01/25/2010 8:00:35 PM PST by Marty62 (former Marty60)
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To: smokingfrog

In so far as Poland lost 6 million people (20% of its population) and only half were Jewish, I can understand soe bitterness at what they see as appropriation. However, let us not forget that the communist government of Poland actually tried to downplay Jewish deaths, perhaps as cover for their antisemitism. Meanwhile, East Germans and other communists used the Holocaust to attack all nationalism. I see no condemnation of this. I also see no condemnation of homosexuals trying to appropriate the Holocaust. Instead, he is singling out Jews and claims against Israel. The bishop does himself no favors.


8 posted on 01/25/2010 8:03:28 PM PST by rmlew (Democracy tends to ignore..., threats to its existence because it loathes doing what is needed)
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To: smokingfrog

why do those who hate jews find it so hard to believe that it did happen, after all they themselves would be happy to carry it out, right now


9 posted on 01/25/2010 8:06:37 PM PST by 4rcane
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To: smokingfrog
Well, the Catholic church is a big organization. There's always going to be the danger of a bad selection in the clergy. If this guy wasn't a nutcake when he was appointed(?) there's always the danger of going mental after he reached his position. The 40’s and 50’s are the danger years for male brains, so consider that as well.

You are aware that there has been quite a resurgence of antisemitism in the world of late, though we in the US haven't really had that much exposure. It seems to be far more of a European thing, or a Middle Eastern thing, or a Far Eastern thing.....Hell, it's worldwide and getting worse as far as I can tell. I really don't believe it ever went away in Europe. The Jews need every edge they can get with those odds.

10 posted on 01/25/2010 8:07:43 PM PST by Habibi ("It is vain to do with more what can be done with less." - William of Occam)
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To: Marty62
“Yes but it was Stated and Planned policy to practice Genocide on the Jews.

Anyway this guy is an idiot.”

Exactly!

11 posted on 01/25/2010 8:09:36 PM PST by pieceofthepuzzle
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: HiTech RedNeck
Yes they burn many books and records. Yet some was saved by the very ones who burned them.
13 posted on 01/25/2010 8:11:10 PM PST by guitarplayer1953 (Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to GOD! Thomas Jefferson)
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To: vladimir998

Sadly, my DH had no clue that there was anyone but Jews killed in the Holocaust. He didn’t believe me that there were Catholics in the camps.


14 posted on 01/25/2010 8:13:36 PM PST by netmilsmom (I am Ilk)
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To: guitarplayer1953

The Church didn’t slaughter Indians in Mexico or South America—Spaniards did on some occasions but not for religious reasons. The Inquisition existed in the New World but the indigenous people were not put to death by it. Most of the decline of population (very severe in some regions) was from the spread of disease. Anyway the Poles were not involved.


15 posted on 01/25/2010 8:18:11 PM PST by Verginius Rufus
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To: guitarplayer1953

Sound like the pot calling the kettle black. Lets not talk about the wholesale slaughter by the Church of indigenous people of South America and Mexico

wait a second, I think all those armies were made up of protestants and......oh wait a second, there were no protestants then......sorry, they’re johnnie come latelys from a much later period of time...but always think they’re right...pathetic


16 posted on 01/25/2010 8:18:51 PM PST by terycarl (lurking, but interested and informed)
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To: FrPR
The holocaust was pure evil. Blaming the Jews for their revulsion to it fans the same flames of hatred which caused the holocaust in the first place.

This cleric should learn from Jesus and stop hating. This is not a man of God. This same poison permeated Poland before and during WW II and led to extreme suffering and genocide. A religious leader should know better.

17 posted on 01/25/2010 8:24:39 PM PST by Armaggedon
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To: rmlew

He sounds like one of Father Rydzyk’s wackos.


18 posted on 01/25/2010 8:25:04 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: guitarplayer1953
"Lets not talk about the wholesale slaughter by the Church of indigenous people of South America and Mexico."

The Spanish military and governmental forces, not the Church, were responsible for the deaths of the indigenous peoples. The Church actually sent missionaries, many of whom suffered greatly and died.

19 posted on 01/25/2010 8:27:04 PM PST by Natural Law
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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2437098/posts


20 posted on 01/25/2010 8:27:48 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Happy New Year! Freedom is Priceless.)
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To: vladimir998

Yes, however, only the Jewish people faced the intentional threat of extinction as such. That is a qualitative difference between the treatment of the Jews and the treatment of non-Jews.


21 posted on 01/25/2010 8:29:51 PM PST by Oceander (The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance -- Thos. Jefferson)
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To: Natural Law

Who burnt all the books? The Amish?


22 posted on 01/25/2010 8:30:30 PM PST by guitarplayer1953 (Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to GOD! Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Oceander
Yes, however, only the Jewish people faced the intentional threat of extinction as such. That is a qualitative difference between the treatment of the Jews and the treatment of non-Jews.
Plenty of Roma/Gypsies would disagree. And Hitler's plans for Catholic Poles was no walk in the park. More like cultural genocide, murder of 1/3, and enslavement.
23 posted on 01/25/2010 8:37:29 PM PST by rmlew (Democracy tends to ignore..., threats to its existence because it loathes doing what is needed)
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To: guitarplayer1953
"Who burnt all the books? The Amish?"

Prior to the discovery of the New World the Spanish had spent nearly 700 years taking the Iberian Peninsula back from the Muslims and had developed a culture in which those who had forfeited their souls through the rejection of Christ had no human value. Upon arriving in the New World the Spanish encountered a cultural horror that made Islam seem pale and weak. Human sacrifice, slavery, ritual and commercial cannibalism were widespread. At the center of this was the religion of the natives. Were it encountered today there would be a similar response by civilized people to stamp out the religions that fostered these practices.

24 posted on 01/25/2010 8:38:48 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: rmlew
And plenty of people would disagree with me about the Earth being round, or orbiting the Sun, or about Blacks and Whites being the same species of mammal. That means rather little, however.


25 posted on 01/25/2010 8:40:53 PM PST by Oceander (The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance -- Thos. Jefferson)
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To: Oceander
And plenty of people would disagree with me about the Earth being round

It isn't round; it's an oblate spheroid.
26 posted on 01/25/2010 8:47:19 PM PST by aruanan
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To: rmlew

Interesting parallel between two nations, Slovakia and Poland.

Both nations were Slavic and Catholic, yet Hitler left the Slovaks alone, yet persecuted the Poles. Of course the Slovaks, through Father Tiso, were in fact full-blown collaborators with the Nazis.

Hitler may have had such arrangement with the Endecja, but their antisemitism was only matched with their hatred of the Germans.


27 posted on 01/25/2010 8:49:19 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: aruanan
"It isn't round; it's an oblate spheroid."

See!?


28 posted on 01/25/2010 8:52:53 PM PST by Oceander (The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance -- Thos. Jefferson)
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To: vladimir998
"Well, I might get flamed for this, but he has a point. 5,000,000 non-Jews died in the Holocaust and almost no one knows it."

Put into perspective, "The Holocaust" ranks only third in 20th century in terms of the numbers of victims. History is rife with holocausts. To claim that only a part of one is "The Holocaust" diminishes all of the victims and exonerates all perpetrators other than those motivated by antisemitism.

29 posted on 01/25/2010 8:55:40 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law

I will say the one thing that makes the Nazi Holocaust stand out is the fact that the Nazis had the audacity to film it, and meticulously document it.


30 posted on 01/25/2010 8:59:55 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator

The Croatian Ustaše and Romanian Iron guard were explicitly Catholic Fascist movements allied with the Nazis. On the other hand Franco not only refused to join the Axis, but accepted refugees and refused to let the Germans take Gibraltar. (Some have argued that this is because Franco was a Moranno, but this is meaningless. He was a Catholic.)


31 posted on 01/25/2010 9:02:33 PM PST by rmlew (Democracy tends to ignore..., threats to its existence because it loathes doing what is needed)
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To: Natural Law

Sound like Hitler now.


32 posted on 01/25/2010 9:02:40 PM PST by guitarplayer1953 (Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to GOD! Thomas Jefferson)
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To: dfwgator
Both Stalin and Mao created extensive film archives of their purges. The one thing that makes the Nazi Holocaust stand out is that the leftists in the west were far more reluctant to tout the film as naseum.
33 posted on 01/25/2010 9:04:57 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: rmlew

And Hitler was a great admirer of Pilsudski, even making a point to post an Honor Guard at his grave after the Nazi invasion of Poland.

Which begs the question, What if Pilsudski had lived in 1939? What course would they had taken with regards to Poland. Hitler knew of Pilsudski’s hatred of the Russians and might have tried to make a deal with him.


34 posted on 01/25/2010 9:06:27 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: Natural Law

But those purges tended to be targeted mainly at politicians, not innocent men, women and children.


35 posted on 01/25/2010 9:07:39 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator
Which begs the question, What if Pilsudski had lived in 1939? What course would they had taken with regards to Poland. Hitler knew of Pilsudski’s hatred of the Russians and might have tried to make a deal with him.
Pilsudski would not have given up Danzig and the corridor. That would have meant land-locking Poland and forcing Poles under German rule. Then again, who knows.
36 posted on 01/25/2010 9:10:18 PM PST by rmlew (Democracy tends to ignore..., threats to its existence because it loathes doing what is needed)
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To: dfwgator
"But those purges tended to be targeted mainly at politicians, not innocent men, women and children."

I thought that at one time too, but I actually did some research. Tens of millions of innocent men, women and children died at the hands of Stalin and Mao. You just won't hear about it from Hollywood, the MSM, and academia who are far more forgiving of the transgressions of the left than of the Nazis.

37 posted on 01/25/2010 9:12:55 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: smokingfrog

Oh Really? Yeah, thanks for that warning Bishop. The Roman Catholic Church knows NOTHING about exploiting suffering for their own benefit. NOTHING at all...


38 posted on 01/25/2010 9:15:30 PM PST by patriot preacher (To be a good American Citizen and a Christian IS NOT a contradiction. (www.mygration.blogspot.com))
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To: Marty62
Yes but it was Stated and Planned policy to practice Genocide on the Jews.

Actually, it was "stated and planned" Nazi policy to practice genocide against all Slavs, Poles in particular, as well as against Jews, gypsies, and others.

The genocidal program against the Slavs was more one of gradual attrition (through contraception, abortion, starvation, disease, etc.) than through industrial-scale extermination. But the final result was to be the same.

39 posted on 01/25/2010 9:18:10 PM PST by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: rmlew
On the other hand Franco not only refused to join the Axis, but accepted refugees and refused to let the Germans take Gibraltar.

He also refused to join Hitler in the war, and refused to enact the anti-Semitic laws the Nazis tried to push on him.

The Romanian Iron Guard weren't "explicitly [Roman] Catholic". (Very few Catholics in Romania, then or now.) Romanian Orthodox, maybe.

40 posted on 01/25/2010 9:22:26 PM PST by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: patriot preacher
"The Roman Catholic Church knows NOTHING about exploiting suffering for their own benefit."

Do you have some specific examples or are you just using this for another ignorant Catholic bashing opportunity?

41 posted on 01/25/2010 9:23:20 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: patriot preacher

I don’t know much about the Holocaust vis a vis Catholics. Did Hitler target them?


42 posted on 01/25/2010 9:56:17 PM PST by boop (Democracy is the theory that the people get the government they deserve, good and hard.)
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To: guitarplayer1953
Lets not talk about the wholesale slaughter by the Church of indigenous people of South America and Mexico

Proof, please. Otherwise, nice talking point from the DUmp and Madeline Murray O'Hare.

The Church has done more to help humanity (converted or not) since its founding than ANY other group. To spread such a lie about those trying to do God's work is beneath contempt.

God bless you. He WILL judge all of us who have sinned. This includes you, like it or not.

43 posted on 01/25/2010 10:39:20 PM PST by Don W (I only keep certain folks' numbers in my 'phone so I know NOT to answer when they call)
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To: smokingfrog

Many of us Jews know that millions of Poles and other nationalities/ethnics/religious people died at the hands of the Nazis.

A late friend of mine was Stefan Korbonski, a leader of the Polish Home Army. He was one of the few PHA leaders to smuggle guns into the Jewish Warsaw Ghetto so that the people could resist the Nazis. For this he was honored with the title of Righteous Gentile by the Vad Yashem Memorial/Foundation in Israel. He was a nice gentleman, a friend of Karski.

Another historical fact. The majority (some say up to 70% of the Polish Reserve Officers killed in the Soviet-perpetrated Katyn Forest Massacre) were Jewish. Many Jewish citizens of both German and Poland joined Reserve organizations, often after having served in WW 1.

My friend’s great-uncles received two Iron Crosses Second or Third Class for their serving in the German Army in WW1. One was killed in action; the other was beaten to death by the Nazis in 1933 eventhough he was a well known civic figure in his town.


44 posted on 01/25/2010 10:41:11 PM PST by ToTheMax
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To: vladimir998

“Well, I might get flamed for this,”

And deservedly so. Your comment might have been made in innocence, but it was also made in ignorance.

“but he has a point.”

Nonsense. No Jew or Jewish organization (Simon Wiesenthal Foundation, YIVO, etc.) has ever claimed that only Jews suffered or that non-Jews were not also marked for extermination by the Nazis. What irks many is that it has been mainly Jews and Jewish organizations that have researched these atrocities, published scholarly books and articles about them, pointed accusatory fingers at collaborators, and taken the dangerous step of hunting Nazis (including kidnapping them, if necessary) in order to bring them to justice. If you know of any homosexual organizations, or Gypsy organization that have done anything similar to this, please let me know.

“5,000,000 non-Jews died in the Holocaust and almost no one knows it.”

Baloney. Anyone interested in the subject can easily learn this. That it has not penetrated into popular consciousness is due precisely to what I mentioned above: to my knowledge, no homosexual or Gypsy has bothered to inform the public. Why is it the fault of Jews that the proverbial man-in-the-street might not know about the attempted Nazi extermination of homosexuals, Gypsies, Slavs, and Freemasons? Why is this not the fault of surviving homosexuals, Gypsies, Slavs, and Freemasons?

“We only hear about the Jews, sometimes about Gypsies and homosexuals and that’s about it.”

See above.

The reason Jews have concentrated on the specific Jewish experience with Nazism is because Jews in Germany were an integral part of German and European culture and were already noted for cultural achievements in medicine, music, philosophy, mathematics, etc., etc. and who fought patriotically for the Fatherland during WWI. Jews — not homosexuals — were (and still are) recognized as a unified culture, a “people.” Not so for homosexuals. Gypsies, indeed, are a people, but with a connection to European cultural achievements in art and science that were (and are) considered very different from that of Jews.

The Polish bishop also conveniently forgets that there was a great deal of Polish complicity with the SS Einsatzgruppen (mobile death squads) that would follow on the heels of the Wermacht as it blitzkrieged through town after town in eastern Europe, round up all the Jews and either shoot them outright, or poison them with carbon monoxide in special vans motorized vans. Millions of Jews were murdered this way, as opposed to dying in camps. Jewish homes and wealth were then expropriated, often by local Poles. This is not even controversial scholarship today, and has all been documented by academic scholars such as Raul Hilberg, as well as by the French documentary filmmaker Claude Lanzmann in his 9-hour documentary “Shoah.” I recommend you see it; you’ll learn a lot and it may stop you from making foolish “flame-worthy” statement later on.

The idea that SS Einsatzgruppen murdered millions of homosexuals in homosexual villages and towns across Eastern Europe in an attempt to erase a long-standing homosexual culture intertwined with the evolution of western civilization is ludicrous. You can replace “homosexual” with “Gypsy” and “Freemason” and it will be just as ludicrous.

Jews — not homosexuals, not Gypsies — were singled out for special treatment in propaganda attacks. There are many extant examples of Nazi-era high-school physics textbooks that would ask students questions such as these: “If a Jew weighing 80 kilograms is hanging by the neck on a gallows, what is the tension on the rope? Draw a force diagram.” Julius Streicher made a special point of attacking Jews in “Der Sturmer”, not Gypsies or homosexuals. Goebbels approved the making of a film called “Die Ewige Jude” (”The Eternal Jew”) in which Jews were likened to rats infesting a city; an infestation requiring extermination by poison gas. Jews were also attacked by a revival of an old Czarist-era anti-Semitic tract called “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” in which Jews were seen as acting in concert to take over the world through an international conspiracy of bankers and media moguls. I know of no similar tract accusing homosexuals or Gypsies of attempt to “take over the world.” I know of no similar event against homosexuals or Gypsies as the notorious “Kristallnacht.” I’m not claiming homosexuals and Gypsies weren’t made to suffer under the Nazis; I’m saying that I know of no similar action against them.

Instead of asking “Why didn’t Spielberg include equal time for homosexuals and Gypsies in ‘Schindler’s List’” it would be more productive to ask “Where are the films by homosexual filmmakers in Hollywood (there are many) about the suffering of homosexuals under Nazism? Where are the Gypsy filmmakers making films about the extermination of Gypsies during WWII?”


45 posted on 01/25/2010 11:23:09 PM PST by GoodDay (Palin for POTUS 2012)
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To: GoodDay
... it would be more productive to ask “Where are the films by homosexual filmmakers in Hollywood (there are many) about the suffering of homosexuals under Nazism? Where are the Gypsy filmmakers making films about the extermination of Gypsies during WWII?”

Excellent comment!

Where are they? Maybe they feel it's not necessary because every time a Jew says NEVER AGAIN! the homosexuals and the gypsies know they are included?

46 posted on 01/26/2010 12:17:24 AM PST by Fred Nerks (FAIR DINKUM!)
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To: Oceander

You wrote:

“Yes, however, only the Jewish people faced the intentional threat of extinction as such. That is a qualitative difference between the treatment of the Jews and the treatment of non-Jews.”

The Nazis wanted to wipe out the Gypsies as well.


47 posted on 01/26/2010 4:36:56 AM PST by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: GoodDay

You wrote:

“And deservedly so. Your comment might have been made in innocence, but it was also made in ignorance.”

No, not at all. I know a good deal about the subject actually.

“Nonsense. No Jew or Jewish organization (Simon Wiesenthal Foundation, YIVO, etc.) has ever claimed that only Jews suffered or that non-Jews were not also marked for extermination by the Nazis.”

That isn’t the issue in itself. What many eastern Europeans resent is the idea that the non-Jews are forgotten while today’s Jews promote Holocaust awareness - meaning really the suffering of Jews in the Holocaust.

“What irks many is that it has been mainly Jews and Jewish organizations that have researched these atrocities, published scholarly books and articles about them, pointed accusatory fingers at collaborators, and taken the dangerous step of hunting Nazis (including kidnapping them, if necessary) in order to bring them to justice. If you know of any homosexual organizations, or Gypsy organization that have done anything similar to this, please let me know.”

For obvious reasons homosexuals and Gypsies would have less reason or ability to do all of those things. Homosexuals would not want to expose themselves as such. Gypsies were dirt poor and scattered throughout Eastern Europe and never ended up with either a large immigration to the US or a newly founded Gypsy homeland.

“Baloney. Anyone interested in the subject can easily learn this.”

CAN learn it. Most people don’t know it. I know they CAN learn it with effort, but they don’t already KNOW it even though they are all but guaranteed to KNOW six million Jews died. Your choice of “can” instead of “know” proves my point. Even you have admitted that they don’t know it already. Everyone already knows about the six million Jewish dead.

“That it has not penetrated into popular consciousness is due precisely to what I mentioned above: to my knowledge, no homosexual or Gypsy has bothered to inform the public.”

What? You think the 5 million non-Jews killed were all gays and Gypsies? Are you insane? Also, most of us learned about the 6 million Jews from TV, school textbooks, an endless series of films, etc. We did not learn about it because of a Jewish organization per se. What you are proposing - that Jews have deliberately organized and “penetrated into popular consciousness” with their or their ancestors suffering is exactly what the bishop was talking about. You’re making it sound like propaganda (and I don’t mean untruthful propaganda either). And I think that’s what the bishop was getting at. You’re just proving my point.

“Why is it the fault of Jews that the proverbial man-in-the-street might not know about the attempted Nazi extermination of homosexuals, Gypsies, Slavs, and Freemasons? Why is this not the fault of surviving homosexuals, Gypsies, Slavs, and Freemasons?”

Oh, so justice has nothing to do with anything? It’s all about organizing and penetrating the popular culture with the best propaganda rather than telling the full truth of what happened to everyone? Thanks again for proving my point. Remember, the bishop said:

“It is not right to expropriate that tragedy for propaganda,” Pieronek was quoted as saying, adding that memorial days should be held for the “victims of communism, for Catholics, for persecuted Christians and so on.”

He continued: “But they, the Jews, enjoy good press because they have powerful financial means behind them, enormous power and the unconditional backing of the United States and this favors a certain arrogance that I find unbearable.”

You seem to be actually leaning toward those points - except instead of “powerful financial means behind them” you say “organization”.

“The reason Jews have concentrated on the specific Jewish experience with Nazism is because Jews in Germany were an integral part of German and European culture and were already noted for cultural achievements in medicine, music, philosophy, mathematics, etc., etc. and who fought patriotically for the Fatherland during WWI. Jews — not homosexuals — were (and still are) recognized as a unified culture, a “people.” Not so for homosexuals. Gypsies, indeed, are a people, but with a connection to European cultural achievements in art and science that were (and are) considered very different from that of Jews.”

Why EXACTLY are you fixated on homosexuals and Gypsies? I mentioned them perhaps but the bishops said much more. You are deliberately reducing the 5 million to gays and Gypsies (and to a lesser extent Slavs, and Freemasons).

“The Polish bishop also conveniently forgets that there was a great deal of Polish complicity with the SS Einsatzgruppen (mobile death squads) that would follow on the heels of the Wermacht as it blitzkrieged through town after town in eastern Europe, round up all the Jews and either shoot them outright, or poison them with carbon monoxide in special vans motorized vans.”

Uh, no. There can be no doubt that the Einsatzgruppen killed some Jews in Poland, perhaps 500,000 by mid-1941, but the mass killings of Jews by the Einsatzgruppen were mostly used in the USSR to slaughter Jews. In Poland they were as much used to kill Poles as Jews and the Poles did not help them accomplish this to any great extent. The Poles, in fact, except for small acts of informing on Jews, participated in the Holocaust less than other Eastern European peoples such as the Ukrainians, Lithuanians, some Russians, etc.

“Millions of Jews were murdered this way, as opposed to dying in camps. Jewish homes and wealth were then expropriated, often by local Poles. This is not even controversial scholarship today, and has all been documented by academic scholars such as Raul Hilberg, as well as by the French documentary filmmaker Claude Lanzmann in his 9-hour documentary “Shoah.” I recommend you see it; you’ll learn a lot and it may stop you from making foolish “flame-worthy” statement later on.”

I’ve seen the documentary. I saw it in the 1980s. And it changes nothing I’ve said. In fact nothing I have said disagrees with the documentary.

“The idea that SS Einsatzgruppen murdered millions of homosexuals in homosexual villages and towns across Eastern Europe in an attempt to erase a long-standing homosexual culture intertwined with the evolution of western civilization is ludicrous.”

Who ever suggested that there were homosexual villages? Who? Show me where I suggested that? Is that what the bishop said? No. I can see your desperation here. For you to go to those lengths - suggesting that I said there were homosexual villages where “millions” of homosexuals were murdered is so idiotic that quite frankly I can’t help but conclude you’re a moron. Are you really that desperate that you have to make up such an outrageous lie?

“You can replace “homosexual” with “Gypsy” and “Freemason” and it will be just as ludicrous.”

Yes, it is ludicrous - and no one suggested it except you. I mentioned that we sometimes hear about homosexual and Gypsy victims. They made up only a small portion of the 5 million victims who were not Jewish. I never suggested - nor did the bishop - that anything approaching your idiotic statement.

“Jews — not homosexuals, not Gypsies — were singled out for special treatment in propaganda attacks.”

Actually they were singled out but Jews - being much more numerous and feared and hated most were especially made the object of propaganda. The Nazis considered this necessary because the German Jews would have to be alienated in Germany itself before they could be exterminated.

“There are many extant examples of Nazi-era high-school physics textbooks that would ask students questions such as these: “If a Jew weighing 80 kilograms is hanging by the neck on a gallows, what is the tension on the rope? Draw a force diagram.” Julius Streicher made a special point of attacking Jews in “Der Sturmer”, not Gypsies or homosexuals.”

Uh, actually to Streicher, to the Jews and Gypsies were analogous sub-humans: http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ds5.htm

Streicher of course focused on Jews more than Gypsies, but he certainly degraded Gypsies often enough.

“Goebbels approved the making of a film called “Die Ewige Jude” (”The Eternal Jew”) in which Jews were likened to rats infesting a city; an infestation requiring extermination by poison gas. Jews were also attacked by a revival of an old Czarist-era anti-Semitic tract called “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” in which Jews were seen as acting in concert to take over the world through an international conspiracy of bankers and media moguls. I know of no similar tract accusing homosexuals or Gypsies of attempt to “take over the world.” I know of no similar event against homosexuals or Gypsies as the notorious “Kristallnacht.””

Why would there have to be? Both Gypsies and homosexuals were looked down upon already by most people in society. There was already anti-semitic sentiment in Germany but not enough to allow the killing of huge numbers of people. That’s why the Nazis had to produce their propaganda against the Jews to excite such hatred and loathing. That was not necessary against the Gypsies and homosexuals because they were already thought of as outsiders or sick. And none of those points you just made changes what I said or even comes close to refuting it. I said: “5,000,000 non-Jews died in the Holocaust and almost no one knows it.” All you’re doing is proving it bu going on and on about Nazi moves against Jews.

Now, you can continue being an idiot and making false claims that someone here suggested there were millions of homosexuals murdered in villages. The truth is that there were 5 million people - of all backgrounds - who were murdered in the Holocaust by the Nazis that have largely been forgotten by the world while we all know about the 6 million Jews.

“I’m not claiming homosexuals and Gypsies weren’t made to suffer under the Nazis; I’m saying that I know of no similar action against them.”

And again, why would there have to be on the part of the Nazis when they could accomplish what they wanted without doing that?

“Instead of asking “Why didn’t Spielberg include equal time for homosexuals and Gypsies in ‘Schindler’s List’” it would be more productive to ask “Where are the films by homosexual filmmakers in Hollywood (there are many) about the suffering of homosexuals under Nazism? Where are the Gypsy filmmakers making films about the extermination of Gypsies during WWII?””

I’m sorry but that’s another idiotic statement. What Gypsy film makers? How many are in Hollywood? Seriously, can you name more than a few? Can you name any? The better question might be, “Why is it that Hollywood makes film after film about Nazis murdering Jews but laregly ignores the 5 million non-Jews?” I think that those who make films in Hollywood are simply not interested in making films about Christians be slaughtered by Nazis. They want to keep up the idea that Nazis and Christians were all but one in the same. Hollywood produces Holocaust films every few years if not every year. Whose story are they telling? Whose story are they not telling?


48 posted on 01/26/2010 5:42:32 AM PST by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: vladimir998

They want to keep up the idea that Nazis and Christians were all but one in the same.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I sense that there is a profound hatred of Christians by those in the highest levels of the film industry. And...I do think you have made a valid point. It does seem that they wish to create the idea that Nazis and Christians are the same.


49 posted on 01/26/2010 6:02:19 AM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid!)
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To: vladimir998
The Gypsies did not bear the same antipathy that the Jews did. Go back to WWII-era Nazi propaganda and read some of it, then come back and we can have an informed discussion.


50 posted on 01/26/2010 6:37:54 AM PST by Oceander (The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance -- Thos. Jefferson)
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