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I shot US abortion doctor to protect children, Scott Roeder tells court
Guardian ^ | 28 January 2010 | Ed Pilkington

Posted on 01/28/2010 12:16:12 PM PST by Ben Mugged

A self-proclaimed born-again Christian who believes all abortions are a sin told his trial for murder today that he shot dead an abortion doctor in Wichita, Kansas, to protect unborn children.

Scott Roeder said he had bought a .22-calibre Taurus gun and ammunition on 30 May 2009, the day before he shot George Tiller, and practised target shooting with his brother. Then he checked into a motel in Wichita, and the next day followed Tiller to the church in the town where the doctor was an usher.

His defence lawyer asked: "Did you go and shoot Dr Tiller?"

Roeder replied: "Yes."

His confession is part of his defence that he felt forced to kill in order to save the lives of unborn children. He has pleaded not guilty to first-degree murder.

It is the first time in US legal history that a violent anti-abortionist has been allowed to present the jury with his justification for murder.

The judge in the case, Warren Wilbert, caused dismay among pro-abortionists and doctors this month when he ruled that Roeder would be allowed to present his justification to the court. Wilbert will decide later in the trial in Kansas whether the jury will be permitted to find the defendant guilty of the lesser crime of manslaughter.

Tiller was killed in the Reformation Lutheran church with one shot to the head. He had long been a target for anti-abortionists as he was one of few doctors prepared to perform legal late abortions, after 21 weeks of gestation.

(Excerpt) Read more at guardian.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; US: Kansas
KEYWORDS: 2savelives; abortion; abortionists; babykillerkilled; churchshooting; doctrineofnecessity; justifiablehomicide; justwar; killedbabykiller; necessitydefense; selfdefense; tiller; wichita
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The prosecution wouldn't want me on this jury.
1 posted on 01/28/2010 12:16:13 PM PST by Ben Mugged
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To: Ben Mugged

It sounds like the guy has his head on straight enough to tell the truth.


2 posted on 01/28/2010 12:17:15 PM PST by ConservativeMind (Hypocrisy: "Animal rightists" who eat meat & pen up pets while accusing hog farmers of cruelty.)
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To: Ben Mugged

Totally agree.


3 posted on 01/28/2010 12:18:38 PM PST by ClearCase_guy (We have the 1st so that we can call on people to rebel. We have 2nd so that they can.)
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To: Ben Mugged

The jury sits in judgment of the law, which makes being a juror the single most important civil/political function the ordinary citizen ever performs.

Nope, the prosecution wouldn’t let me on this jury either.


4 posted on 01/28/2010 12:18:43 PM PST by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: Ben Mugged

Lock the POS up for life, he committed murder and he hurt the pro-life movement.


5 posted on 01/28/2010 12:19:54 PM PST by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: Ben Mugged
desperate times, desperate measures.

in the big picture, the government that allows the untenable practice of abortion is culpable in the slaying of the doctor.

6 posted on 01/28/2010 12:21:03 PM PST by the invisib1e hand (governance is not sovereignty [paraphrasing Bishop Fulton Sheen].)
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To: Ben Mugged

Frankly, one shot to the head sounds a lot more humane than partial-birth abortion. But hey, that’s just me.


7 posted on 01/28/2010 12:21:08 PM PST by nysuperdoodle
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To: Ben Mugged

I’d be happy to sit and happy to convict. We are a nation of laws and NOT a nation of theocrats. Right now, abortion is legal in this country. If you don’t like the law, then work within the law to change the law. But, your moral beliefs aren’t license to murder someone with whom you disagree. If we go down that road - and endorse it, as you seem to be doing - then we might as well start dressing in bedsheets with diapers on our heads, because we will have become just like the Jihadists so many hate.


8 posted on 01/28/2010 12:21:44 PM PST by OldDeckHand
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To: ConservativeMind

I don’t believe that it was right to kill the abortionist, but the abortionist certainly got what was coming to him.


9 posted on 01/28/2010 12:21:50 PM PST by brwnsuga (Not a Slave!)
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To: trumandogz
Lock the POS up for life, he committed murder and he hurt the pro-life movement.

He isn't any more or less guilty than those responsible for a million baby murders per year. Where's your call to lock them up?

10 posted on 01/28/2010 12:22:32 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: trumandogz
Lock the POS up for life, he committed murder and he hurt the pro-life movement.

Yeah.

Wonder how many abortions were interrupted/cancelled as a result of this.

Guess you could say he accomplished his mission.

11 posted on 01/28/2010 12:23:13 PM PST by the invisib1e hand (governance is not sovereignty [paraphrasing Bishop Fulton Sheen].)
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To: Ben Mugged

Left-wing pro-lifer.


12 posted on 01/28/2010 12:23:58 PM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: LearsFool
"The jury sits in judgment of the law,"

Absolutely incorrect. The jury sits in judgment of the accused - more precisely, in judgment of the state's case against the accused - and are instructed, without equivocation, to follow the law, not to evaluate its merit.

If you're arguing for jury nullification, you're no different than the idiotic racists who acquitted OJ Simpson.

13 posted on 01/28/2010 12:24:46 PM PST by OldDeckHand
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To: trumandogz
Lock the POS up for life, he committed murder and he hurt the pro-life movement.

Just for arguments sake, assume the jury found him innocent because he was in fact defending the lives of the unborn. How may doctors could you find that would be willing to perform late term abortions if the doctors could be terminated with extreme prejudice?

14 posted on 01/28/2010 12:24:55 PM PST by Ben Mugged (Unions are the storm troopers of socialism.)
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To: OldDeckHand
We are a nation of laws and NOT a nation of theocrats.

"...a time to obey man, a time to obey God...."

Not postulating that this condones the murder, but, on the other hand, it sort of vaporizes your argument.

15 posted on 01/28/2010 12:24:58 PM PST by the invisib1e hand (governance is not sovereignty [paraphrasing Bishop Fulton Sheen].)
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To: OldDeckHand
If we go down that road - and endorse it, as you seem to be doing - then we might as well start dressing in bedsheets with diapers on our heads, because we will have become just like the Jihadists so many hate.

Wasn't against Germany's laws to kill Jews either.

16 posted on 01/28/2010 12:25:54 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Ben Mugged
Sorry. Men with conviction are not afraid to go to prison forever, or even die, for what they believe in.

If you really think what you did was right despite the law, you would stop trying to weasel-out and would go to prison like a man.

17 posted on 01/28/2010 12:25:58 PM PST by Anti-Utopian ("Come, let's away to prison; We two alone will sing like birds I' th' cage." -King Lear [V,iii,6-8])
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To: trumandogz

Its always fun to view your posts.You are so predictable.


18 posted on 01/28/2010 12:25:59 PM PST by HANG THE EXPENSE (Life is tough.It's tougher when you're stupid.)
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To: Ben Mugged
assume the jury found him innocent because he was in fact defending the lives of the unborn.

You know, that is a perfectly reasonable conclusion.

This man might be a saint.

19 posted on 01/28/2010 12:26:38 PM PST by the invisib1e hand (governance is not sovereignty [paraphrasing Bishop Fulton Sheen].)
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To: Ben Mugged

The prosecution would not want me on that jury.Ditto.


20 posted on 01/28/2010 12:26:46 PM PST by HANG THE EXPENSE (Life is tough.It's tougher when you're stupid.)
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To: Ben Mugged
One is sworn to uphold “the law” when one serves on a jury, however, one is obliged to find a “higher law” superseding “man's law” and find “not guilty” of murder but a justified killing in defense of the life of another.
21 posted on 01/28/2010 12:26:49 PM PST by zerosix (A)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

I’m Pro Life and do not believe in murdering abortion doctors.

And once Abortion becomes illegal in all 50 states, not only should doctors who perform abortions be locked-up for life, but also the women who have abortions and the people who conspire with these women to kill their unborn babies should be locked up for life.

Again, I am Pro Life.


22 posted on 01/28/2010 12:26:57 PM PST by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: Ben Mugged
Well the Lefty's and Atheists have Killed 40 Million and replaced them with Third worlders !! Aside from the continuing Mass Murder..
23 posted on 01/28/2010 12:28:46 PM PST by Cheetahcat (Zero the Wright kind of Racist! We are in a state of War with Democrats)
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To: OldDeckHand

Sounds like a good argument...for the defense at Nuremberg.


24 posted on 01/28/2010 12:29:04 PM PST by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: Anti-Utopian
If you really think what you did was right despite the law, you would stop trying to weasel-out and would go to prison like a man.

Weasel out? He told the court plainly exactly what he did and why he did it. Weasels don't do that. They blame others. Like President Obama in his speech last night. There's your weasel.

And if the man of convictions believe the law is unjust, such that he will take action in contravention of it for the cause of justice, why on earth would he be willing to be judged by the unjust law? A sensible man would protest it with vigor, and leave his fate in God's hands.

25 posted on 01/28/2010 12:29:11 PM PST by the invisib1e hand (governance is not sovereignty [paraphrasing Bishop Fulton Sheen].)
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To: Ben Mugged
Abortion is the planned murder of the most helpless.
The “humans” who feel it is okay show their hatred
of humanity and their self hatred.
26 posted on 01/28/2010 12:29:13 PM PST by HuntsvilleTxVeteran ((B.?) Hussein (Obama?Soetoro?Dunham?) Change America Will Die From.)
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To: OldDeckHand
When slavery was the law of the land, many chose to help runaway slaves escape their bondage. It was an unjust law just as late term abortion is an unjust law. In the face of such radical injustice there comes a point where men must take a stand.
27 posted on 01/28/2010 12:30:32 PM PST by Ben Mugged (Unions are the storm troopers of socialism.)
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To: trumandogz

You’re spot on. No one needs that kind of “help”.


28 posted on 01/28/2010 12:31:51 PM PST by greatplains
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To: the invisib1e hand
"Not postulating that this condones the murder, but, on the other hand, it sort of vaporizes your argument."

No it sorta doesn't. In fact, it very much emboldens it. Whose God are you talking about? The Indian's God(s)? The Muslim God? The God of Rah? The Gods of Asgard?

We AREN'T a theocracy, we're a Republic built out of law. When you start advocating that people start breaking the laws of man for the laws of their God, then you might as rename Washington, Tehran.

No one in THIS country gets to break the laws of the people out of some notion of moral superiority.

29 posted on 01/28/2010 12:33:09 PM PST by OldDeckHand
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To: Ben Mugged

The man committed murder and should be locked-up.

And yes, abortion should be against the law, but even with 9 of the last 12 justices of the SCOTUS being appointed by Republican Presidents, Roe v. Wade is still the law of the land.

Once Roe is overturned, the people will prosecute those who have and those who preform abortions with murder.


30 posted on 01/28/2010 12:33:38 PM PST by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: trumandogz

How so?

I bet doctors considering doing late term abortions may decide not to do so because they could have the same fate. I say his actions have saved lives.


31 posted on 01/28/2010 12:34:03 PM PST by Wahoo82
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To: the invisib1e hand
He is a coward and a weasel claiming this was an act of "defense," and not the clearly calculated act of murder it was, so he can get a severely reduced sentence and save himself from prison.

Your hero is a disgusting wretch who murdered another disgusting wretch, and nothing more.

32 posted on 01/28/2010 12:35:05 PM PST by Anti-Utopian ("Come, let's away to prison; We two alone will sing like birds I' th' cage." -King Lear [V,iii,6-8])
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To: imahawk

“Its always fun to view your posts.You are so predictable.”

Thanks, and yes it is predictable that my posts on this issue will always come done on the side of Life.


33 posted on 01/28/2010 12:35:30 PM PST by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: OldDeckHand
Sometimes justice needs to be supplied from the barrel of a gun.
34 posted on 01/28/2010 12:36:12 PM PST by Wahoo82
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To: OldDeckHand
...and are instructed, without equivocation, to follow the law, not to evaluate its merit.

Instruction and right are two different things. I hold tightly to the right of self-government, and to the fact that, in the final analysis, all government devolves to the people.

Americans have (like every nation has) gotten the government we deserve. But there are still those among us who will exercise our right of self-government and overrule unjust, murderous laws on a case-by-case basis.

You see, we're opposed to abortion even when it comes to actually stopping abortion.
35 posted on 01/28/2010 12:36:27 PM PST by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: OldDeckHand
"We are a nation of laws..."

Kansas Statutes Amended:

Chapter 21: Crimes And Punishments
PART I.--GENERAL PROVISIONS
Article 32: Principles Of Criminal Liability

Statute 21-3211: Use of force in defense of a person; no duty to retreat.

(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent it appears to such person and such person reasonably believes that such force is necessary to defend such person or a third person against such other's imminent use of unlawful force.

(b) A person is justified in the use of deadly force under circumstances described in subsection (a) if such person reasonably believes deadly force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to such person or a third person.

(c) Nothing in this section shall require a person to retreat if such person is using force to protect such person or a third person.

==========================================

A well crafted defense would establish that Roeder believed that abortions cause death or great bodily harm to a third person, after which the definition of "imminent" will be put to the test. IMHO, if Tiller had an abortion appointment scheduled for the following day, I'd call that imminent. You're right. We are a nation of laws...it will be interesting to see how this one is applied.

36 posted on 01/28/2010 12:36:43 PM PST by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Ben Mugged

The prosecutor fought with the judge over letting him put on this defense. I wonder if she is trying to throw the case. Judge said he would be overturned in a heartbeat if he agreed with her.

If the jury decides it is voluntary manslaughter and not first degree murder, the precedent is not good. I don’t want some whacked out lib getting up and convincing a jury he had a right to murder someone because of what that person did. The left has great power to taint jury pools. They could demonize a victim, say a corporte polluter, and get away with first degree murder.


37 posted on 01/28/2010 12:37:11 PM PST by Brugmansian
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To: trumandogz
I’m Pro Life and do not believe in murdering abortion doctors.

Somebody say otherwise?

And once Abortion becomes illegal in all 50 states, not only should doctors who perform abortions be locked-up for life, but also the women who have abortions and the people who conspire with these women to kill their unborn babies should be locked up for life.

That's fine. But I'd have to disagree that this gunman has hurt the pro-life cause. I wouldn't ever murder anyone but who's to say he didn't save many lives?

Again, I am Pro Life.

Is there an echo in here?

38 posted on 01/28/2010 12:37:53 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Wahoo82

“I bet doctors considering doing late term abortions may decide not to do so because they could have the same fate. I say his actions have saved lives.”

That being the case, Mr. Roeder should feel satisfied with his accomplishment , as he will have plenty of time to think about it as he stares at the grey wall of a prison cell for the rest of his life.


39 posted on 01/28/2010 12:38:32 PM PST by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
"Wasn't against Germany's laws to kill Jews either. "

German was a totalitarian dictatorship devoid of law except those dictated by the Fuhrer. We are a representative republic, with laws written by for and of the people.

40 posted on 01/28/2010 12:38:42 PM PST by OldDeckHand
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To: Ben Mugged

Anyone that condemns this man for believing his faith 100% isn’t a believer.

That said, the state will impose it’s will through it’s laws.

He is guilty of going outside the law, but he and others have observed that political appointees have systematically ensured the law doesn’t work to protect children even when it appears the law is clear.

I think if I was on the jury, the difference between a not guilty and me wanting the death penalty for this guy would hinge on whether it is true that the system of laws had indeed broken down and the system had become a political tool.

If the system of laws had become a political tool, violence may be the only avenue left against political oppression of the judiciary.

Anyways, this is where I draw the line. I don’t know what is true in this case, but if on the jury I would have to discover the truth.

I would have to have a lot of evidence that a reasonable person could reach the same conclusion before I would let this guy get a pass though.


41 posted on 01/28/2010 12:39:00 PM PST by dila813
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To: LearsFool
"Sounds like a good argument...for the defense at Nuremberg."

Sounds like the most idiotic statement I've read in a while. Congratulations.

42 posted on 01/28/2010 12:40:00 PM PST by OldDeckHand
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To: OldDeckHand
German was a totalitarian dictatorship devoid of law except those dictated by the Fuhrer. We are a representative republic, with laws written by for and of the people.

I see. Its better when more than one person gives it the stamp of approval.

43 posted on 01/28/2010 12:40:22 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: OldDeckHand
No one in THIS country gets to break the laws of the people out of some notion of moral superiority.

righto. I think the very concept of "law" -- and certainly as it was understood by the founders -- was not rooted in pantheism or moral equivalence.

There was a particular God who inspired the Judeo-Christian structure of western civilization, and you apparently are content to ignore or deny that fact, even as you benefit from it.

44 posted on 01/28/2010 12:40:23 PM PST by the invisib1e hand (governance is not sovereignty [paraphrasing Bishop Fulton Sheen].)
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To: trumandogz

Really?


45 posted on 01/28/2010 12:40:54 PM PST by HANG THE EXPENSE (Life is tough.It's tougher when you're stupid.)
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To: Anti-Utopian

I guess you’re not paying attention.


46 posted on 01/28/2010 12:41:15 PM PST by the invisib1e hand (governance is not sovereignty [paraphrasing Bishop Fulton Sheen].)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

“I wouldn’t ever murder anyone but who’s to say he didn’t save many lives?”

I really do not think we want to introduce “I killed a guy because I thought that my doing so would may save other lives” into our legal system as an accepted defense.


47 posted on 01/28/2010 12:41:50 PM PST by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: Ben Mugged
It is the first time in US legal history that a violent anti-abortionist has been allowed to present the jury with his justification for murder.

Wow. Imagine being the accused being able to state his case in an American court of law!

48 posted on 01/28/2010 12:42:16 PM PST by the invisib1e hand (governance is not sovereignty [paraphrasing Bishop Fulton Sheen].)
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To: OldDeckHand
We are a representative republic, with laws written by for and of the people.

...And overturned by a Supreme Court majority.
49 posted on 01/28/2010 12:42:20 PM PST by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: OldDeckHand

After watching Congress last year dealing with healthcare do you really believe your statement?


50 posted on 01/28/2010 12:42:25 PM PST by Wahoo82
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