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I shot US abortion doctor to protect children, Scott Roeder tells court
Guardian ^ | 28 January 2010 | Ed Pilkington

Posted on 01/28/2010 12:16:12 PM PST by Ben Mugged

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To: BP2

Life begins at conception, therefore there is no difference between a first and third trimester abortion.


151 posted on 01/28/2010 2:18:16 PM PST by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: LussaO
We can’t descend into moral relativism and situational ethics.

To paraphrase Plato’s argument for reasoning our way toward moral values:

Do we have a good reason for designating certain acts as moral and others as immoral? Suppose that we were commanded to torture a child. Would that make it all right, or would some other standard give us reasons to resist? And if, on the other hand, we were forced by moral reasons to issue some dictates and not others — if a command to torture a child was never an option — then why not appeal to those reasons directly?

Why not indeed?

152 posted on 01/28/2010 2:20:30 PM PST by Ben Mugged (Unions are the storm troopers of socialism.)
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To: LussaO
.
"Roeder committed first degree murder, the worst crime on the books, and he needs to pay the penalty."

The evidence says no.

Under Kansas law, he committed a justifiable act of homicide out of necessity. He should be lauded for his courage.
.

153 posted on 01/28/2010 2:20:34 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Democracy, the vilest form of government, pits the greed of an angry mob vs. the rights of a man)
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To: <1/1,000,000th%
i have not heard that before. was he a leftest?
There are some leftest I know that are pro life.
154 posted on 01/28/2010 2:21:42 PM PST by Steve Van Doorn (*in my best Eric cartman voice* 'I love you guys')
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To: editor-surveyor
"Argumentum ad absurdum!"

Weasels will always prefer the company of other weasels, as they both stink of the same rotten meat and rancid blood.

155 posted on 01/28/2010 2:23:12 PM PST by Anti-Utopian ("Come, let's away to prison; We two alone will sing like birds I' th' cage." -King Lear [V,iii,6-8])
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To: Agamemnon

So, according to you, Roeder would be justified in killing any doctor who may perform an abortion, any doctor who may implant an IUD, or a pharmacist that might dispense “morning after pills?”


156 posted on 01/28/2010 2:23:33 PM PST by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: editor-surveyor

He should be lauded for his courage.

* * * * * * * *

All the other doctor killers went to prison or were executed. The mainstream prolife groups condemned Roeder and his own family rejected him.

The number of people ridiculous enough to laud him - I daresay you could feed them all with one KFC Variety Bucket.


157 posted on 01/28/2010 2:24:12 PM PST by LussaO
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To: editor-surveyor

So, where’s YOUR courage? You’re a Freeper, I know you have a gun, and there’s some 4000 babies out there who are doomed to die today.

Something tells me there’s a reason you don’t go a-shootin’ - because you know on some level it’s morally wrong and unjustifiable. Doctor-killing is for the schizophrenic losers off their meds like Roeder.


158 posted on 01/28/2010 2:27:59 PM PST by LussaO
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To: BP2
In Fort Hood, 14 people were killed — 13 adults and one unborn child. Both Federal Law and the UCMJ allow for a murder charge when a person causes the death of an unborn child.

And what would you think if Hassan tried to offer, as his defense, that he was killing people who were going off to kill Muslims and therefore he was acting in their defense?

159 posted on 01/28/2010 2:28:41 PM PST by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: LussaO
"Tim McVeigh had a “necessity defense”, too."

Another of your falsehoods. - McVey had no defense, and he was a puppet anyway.

160 posted on 01/28/2010 2:29:12 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Democracy, the vilest form of government, pits the greed of an angry mob vs. the rights of a man)
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To: editor-surveyor

“He deserves a medal for lifesaving.”

Roeder does not deserve a medal, but rather he deserves the steel bars of a prison cell fir the rest of his life.


161 posted on 01/28/2010 2:30:46 PM PST by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: LearsFool
Jury nullification is inherent in jury trial.

Really?

You mean jury trials where the jurors are instructed to apply the law to the facts presented by the court? THOSE jury trials?

If the jury is authorized to operate outside the law then the jury has BECOME the law themselves! Why have elected representatives, debate, legislation, veto power, or, for that matter, a Constitution at all? Legislation by jury is so much more efficient!

If your reasoning is correct, then the supreme authority of the United States of America rests with either 12 jurors, or a single juror in many cases. As long as the juror(s) really, really believe they are right and the law is wrong, then screw the law.

Remember, there are liberal jurors sitting in judgment against conservative defendents all the time. Think LONG and HARD about that, in the context of gun posession, concealed carry and self-defense cases, for example.

As I said before, such a belief is openly hostile to the fundamentals spelled out in the Constitution and would be a pernicious force against justice in the USA if allowed to spread.

162 posted on 01/28/2010 2:30:54 PM PST by TChris ("Hello", the politician lied.)
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To: OldDeckHand; All

> Third Reich Germany wasn’t a nation of laws, but a nation
> beholden to the musings of one psychopathic murder.

I’m not talking legal, I’m talking moral. We're a nation of laws, but those laws are made by flesh and blood men and women. Some of those people have a much more devious intention than others on the topic of Abortion.

Since 1973, 1,568,359,019 humans have been killed in the US with the legalization of abortion. That's a hell of a lot more slaughtering than Adolf ever ordered.

Sorry to hear you’re okay with that.


163 posted on 01/28/2010 2:32:01 PM PST by BP2 (I think, therefore I'm a conservative)
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To: Ben Mugged
The prosecution wouldn't want me on this jury.

Me neither.

164 posted on 01/28/2010 2:32:22 PM PST by DTogo (High time to bring back the Sons of Liberty !!)
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To: LussaO
"Tim McVeigh had a necessity defense too, the “feds needed to learn a lesson.” And when the Montana Freeman standoff ended without a Waco fire, McVeigh felt vindicated in his bombing - wow, sounds a lot like the freepers saying the shooting saved a lot of babies!"

Can't remember when I've seen so many nonsequiturs strung out in one line before! - You have no contact with the real world. Are you an abortion doctor by any chance?

165 posted on 01/28/2010 2:33:16 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Democracy, the vilest form of government, pits the greed of an angry mob vs. the rights of a man)
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To: Ben Mugged

Praying for Scott Roeder, and praying for wisdom for his jury.


166 posted on 01/28/2010 2:33:56 PM PST by Palladin (It's a new day in America. Welcome, Senator Brown.)
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To: editor-surveyor

BEEP - wrong! You don’t have to have read the book American Terrorist to know that McVeigh’s justification for his bombing was, it was the only way for increasingly powerless citizens to stand up to the federal juggernaut, as he put it.
He surmised the government wouldn’t be impressed by a mere destroyed building they could easily replace, but a high body count of irreplaceable people would leave a mark.

I hear that view reflected in some of these comments justifying 1st degree murder and it is appalling.


167 posted on 01/28/2010 2:34:02 PM PST by LussaO
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To: trumandogz
Roeder would be justified in killing any doctor who may perform an abortion, any doctor who may implant an IUD, or a pharmacist

And you could kill Roeder and say you were stopping the murder of any doctor or pharmacist . Same defense, same insane argument

168 posted on 01/28/2010 2:35:19 PM PST by Snowyman
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To: TChris

I guess you don’t read well, and are logically impaired.

The constitution does not provide for instruction of juries. Juries do sit in judgement first of the law, and second of the defendant. A jury that has been instructed is invalid.


169 posted on 01/28/2010 2:36:29 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Democracy, the vilest form of government, pits the greed of an angry mob vs. the rights of a man)
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To: Ogie Oglethorpe
Life begins at conception and there is no difference between a third trimester abortion, a first trimester abortion, an IUD and the “morning after” pill.
170 posted on 01/28/2010 2:37:48 PM PST by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: OldDeckHand

KSM is not entitled to a jury trial under our laws. You already know that, so you are arguing dishonestly.

Your question is unanswerable because it is in no way analogous to this case.


171 posted on 01/28/2010 2:39:25 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Democracy, the vilest form of government, pits the greed of an angry mob vs. the rights of a man)
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To: Ben Mugged

Well, look at it this way, how many “procedures” has Killer Tiller done since ?


172 posted on 01/28/2010 2:40:04 PM PST by fieldmarshaldj (~"This is what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps !"~~)
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To: Ben Mugged
"A self-proclaimed born-again Christian..."

I didn't know there was any other kind.

Is there a blood test available? A questionnaire? A psychological evaluation?

I guess I need to get out into the real world a little more often...
173 posted on 01/28/2010 2:40:18 PM PST by Quality_Not_Quantity (A half-truth masquerading as the whole truth becomes a complete untruth. (J.I. Packer)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

No doubt Roeder saved lives of mothers as well as babies by his actions.

Many mothers also died at the hands of the Butcher of Wichita. One was a young retarded woman who had not given consent to the act which took both her life and that of her baby.

Tiller the Killer was a despicable human being. The world is better off without him. Assassinating him was on a par with assassinating Saddam Hussein or Hitler or Charles Manson.

...and remember, Sec. of Health Sebelius was one of his closest friends.


174 posted on 01/28/2010 2:41:29 PM PST by Palladin (It's a new day in America. Welcome, Senator Brown.)
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To: CaribouCrossing

If Kansas law is fully followed, he will be acquitted. (no guarantees though, but the judge seems to be fair)


175 posted on 01/28/2010 2:42:21 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Democracy, the vilest form of government, pits the greed of an angry mob vs. the rights of a man)
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To: editor-surveyor
I guess you don’t read well, and are logically impaired.

The constitution does not provide for instruction of juries. Juries do sit in judgement first of the law, and second of the defendant. A jury that has been instructed is invalid.

LOLOLOL!

Wow.

Juries "sit in judgement...of the law"??? Really? Show me THAT one in the Constitution. Odd that it does provide for superior courts to do exactly that: sit in judgment of the law. If that's the jury's job, why would the Constitution provide for superior courts, up to and including the SCOTUS?

You live in a bizarre fantasy world, FRiend. Pray you never sit as a defendant with a jury who shares your beliefs. The sword cuts both ways.

176 posted on 01/28/2010 2:44:07 PM PST by TChris ("Hello", the politician lied.)
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To: LussaO

I don’t live in Kansas where the coded law recognizes killing by necessity.


177 posted on 01/28/2010 2:44:53 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Democracy, the vilest form of government, pits the greed of an angry mob vs. the rights of a man)
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To: trumandogz

Your comment drips with hatred, and evil as usual.


178 posted on 01/28/2010 2:46:04 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Democracy, the vilest form of government, pits the greed of an angry mob vs. the rights of a man)
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To: TChris
You mean jury trials where the jurors are instructed to apply the law to the facts presented by the court? THOSE jury trials?

I mean ESPECIALLY those jury trials.

If your reasoning is correct, then the supreme authority of the United States of America rests with either 12 jurors, or a single juror in many cases. As long as the juror(s) really, really believe they are right and the law is wrong, then screw the law.

In a nutshell!

Or isn't ours a self-governing nation any more? Perhaps we've abdicated that responsibilty? Perhaps we have for too long lazily delegated that duty further and further up the chain of power that we can no longer make decisions for ourselves about what sort of communities we'd like to have?

If so, let us hang our heads in shame, for we're unworthy of the inheritance bequeathed to us in blood by our nation's founders!

Remember, there are liberal jurors sitting in judgment against conservative defendents all the time. Think LONG and HARD about that, in the context of gun posession, concealed carry and self-defense cases, for example.

If you're suggesting that the consequences of my principles might convince me to abandon my principles, you've misjudged me, my FRiend.
179 posted on 01/28/2010 2:46:45 PM PST by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: ConservativeMind

It sounds like the guy has his head on straight enough to tell the truth.
****************

What was it Orwell wrote about telling the truth being a revolutionary act in a time of universal deceit? Yeah, that.


180 posted on 01/28/2010 2:47:36 PM PST by Canedawg (The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.)
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To: trumandogz
Life begins at conception and there is no difference between a third trimester abortion, a first trimester abortion, an IUD and the “morning after” pill.

Fair enough - I agree as well.

I am sure Roeder (sp?) strongly believes that as well - hence the legal basis for his argument.

I don't know that his defense will be successful. I do know that, if he truly believed that morally he was justified in the killing in an effort to save lives (and clearly he did) - then he has a possible case for manslaughter rather than murder.

Since you chose not to answer my original question, I can only assume you do not see a moral difference between the two scenarios, only a legal one. If I am wrong, please correct me.

181 posted on 01/28/2010 2:48:12 PM PST by Ogie Oglethorpe (2nd Amendment - the reboot button on the U.S. Constitution)
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To: Palladin
“Tiller the Killer was a despicable human being. The world is better off without him. Assassinating him was on a par with assassinating Saddam Hussein or Hitler or Charles Manson.”

With that Being the case, a radical pro-lifer can kill a pharmacist who dispenses the “morning after pill.”

182 posted on 01/28/2010 2:48:51 PM PST by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: editor-surveyor

Why?


183 posted on 01/28/2010 2:48:56 PM PST by greatplains
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To: LussaO

Since you obviously lack the background in the vast amout of evidence pointing to government involvement in the murra bombing, and rely on a book of propaganda and falsehood to prop up your absurd arguments, I will discontinue any further discussion with you.


184 posted on 01/28/2010 2:49:33 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Democracy, the vilest form of government, pits the greed of an angry mob vs. the rights of a man)
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To: fieldmarshaldj

Dr. Carhart is doing them now. If you don’t have a problem with 1st degree murder of abortion doctors, and you have a gun (you must have, you’re a freeper), there’s still late term abortions taking place. You know where Dr. Carhart is.

Something tells me, you’re not going to do anything. I would hope what prevents you from taking action is, because you have principles and a moral foundation.


185 posted on 01/28/2010 2:51:48 PM PST by LussaO
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To: TChris

The jury is the superior court; the judge is merely a proctor.


186 posted on 01/28/2010 2:52:24 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Democracy, the vilest form of government, pits the greed of an angry mob vs. the rights of a man)
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To: Palladin
One was a young retarded woman who had not given consent to the act which took both her life and that of her baby.

That woman, Christin Gilbert, suffered from Downs Syndrome. Legally she was incapable of consent and a ward of her parents, who brought her to Tiller.

187 posted on 01/28/2010 2:52:39 PM PST by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: editor-surveyor

Sounds like you’re a McVeigh defender, too. In that case I’m done with YOU. Now excuse me while I wash off the filth.


188 posted on 01/28/2010 2:53:21 PM PST by LussaO
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To: Ben Mugged

How about a hypothetical? Would a soon-to-be father be justified in shooting an abortion doctor to prevent the abortion of his own child? The doctor is ready to go, the woman has consented, and the police have just arrived to arrest the father; he has one chance to save his unborn baby, and that is to shoot the doctor in defense of his child.


189 posted on 01/28/2010 2:56:10 PM PST by JTHomes
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To: editor-surveyor
We will see what that Kansas jury has to say about this matter. And it is my guess that Scott will spend the rest of his life in a cell with a lifelong cellmate.
190 posted on 01/28/2010 3:00:43 PM PST by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: LearsFool
Or isn't ours a self-governing nation any more?

Of course it is, as laid out in the Constitution.

Will you plainly answer whether or not you support and revere the US Constitution? It sure seems that you do not.

The method of self-governance laid out in that document is NOT one of jury vigilantism and chaos, but of elected representation and distributed powers. The sort of small, focused, absolute authority you espouse is PRECISELY what the Founders prohibit!

Perhaps we've abdicated that responsibilty? Perhaps we have for too long lazily delegated that duty further and further up the chain of power that we can no longer make decisions for ourselves about what sort of communities we'd like to have?

Who is this "we" of which you speak? Don't you mean the sort of communities you would like to have?

I mean, that's what you're really getting at. You don't want "the people" to govern, since they sometimes create laws you don't like. You want to be able to ignore and override "the people" so you can have things your way.

It's the spirit of tyranny, no different than Hugo Chavez.

If so, let us hang our heads in shame, for we're unworthy of the inheritance bequeathed to us in blood by our nation's founders!

How utterly absurd and mocking of you to mention the nation's founders while you proudly undermine the principles for which they fought!

You should hang your head in shame. You carry the spirit of everything the founders opposed.

If you're suggesting that the consequences of my principles might convince me to abandon my principles, you've misjudged me, my FRiend.

I'm suggesting you think about what you're really saying, and how it would work if your ideas were applied on a large scale.

I doubt you'll change your mind, since you haven't had to actually see and consider the consequences of your ideas. Your principles are anti-American and anti-conservative.

Thank God there aren't too many of you.

191 posted on 01/28/2010 3:02:42 PM PST by TChris ("Hello", the politician lied.)
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To: trumandogz

I agree with you. Cold blooded murder is cold blooded murder. To shoot a man down in cold blood, in church, in the name of God is beyond justification.

It does not make Roeder any better than Tiller. To justify it is an insult to the soul of every child Tiller aborted.


192 posted on 01/28/2010 3:02:57 PM PST by Protect the Bill of Rights
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To: Canedawg

I thought McVeigh said that - the day would come when we looked back and realized we executed a hero ::yeah right::

If killing the doctor is such a laudable action, worthy of medals, it sure is rare. The last doctor killing was 12 years ago. Apparently a guy nutty and schizophrenic enough to save the babies this way only comes once a decade. How unsatisfying for these moral-relativist freepers.


193 posted on 01/28/2010 3:03:01 PM PST by LussaO
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To: LussaO

Definately not a McVey defender; even though his truck bomb did little to the building, he fully intended it to be destructive, and he was an accomplice to mass murder.


194 posted on 01/28/2010 3:04:27 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Democracy, the vilest form of government, pits the greed of an angry mob vs. the rights of a man)
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To: editor-surveyor
The jury is the superior court; the judge is merely a proctor.

Kindly show me the jury for the Supreme Court?

You're just wrong, FRiend.

The people govern through elected representation in this country, not through jury nullification.

195 posted on 01/28/2010 3:04:57 PM PST by TChris ("Hello", the politician lied.)
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To: trumandogz

This is the same Kansas that had acquitted Tiller just a few weeks before, isn’t it?


196 posted on 01/28/2010 3:08:41 PM PST by LussaO
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To: LussaO; canedog
"I thought McVeigh said that - the day would come when we looked back and realized we executed a hero"

You know that he said nothing of the kind - You are a common liar!

197 posted on 01/28/2010 3:08:50 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Democracy, the vilest form of government, pits the greed of an angry mob vs. the rights of a man)
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To: TChris

Superior court, not supreme.

Have you ever dealt with truth, or is this your standard operation?


198 posted on 01/28/2010 3:10:40 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Democracy, the vilest form of government, pits the greed of an angry mob vs. the rights of a man)
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To: trumandogz; All

Life begins at conception, therefore there is no difference between a first and third trimester abortion.

Congratulations for seeing the light. Stopping legalized murder is justifiable, regardless of how old the person is.
British MPs propose to relax early abortion law


Sadly, the psychological scars gouge as deeply as those on the body of the unborn child tossed into the trashcan.


199 posted on 01/28/2010 3:13:13 PM PST by BP2 (I think, therefore I'm a conservative)
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To: editor-surveyor
"KSM is not entitled to a jury trial under our laws. You already know that, so you are arguing dishonestly."

Terrific, pick Hassan - the psychiatrist murdering Major then. He certainly is entitled to a jury trial and all the Constitutional rights of any citizen. Would you defend an act of jury nullification by one of his fellow Muslims that happens to be sitting on his jury? I'll eagerly await your convoluted logic where you say "no".

200 posted on 01/28/2010 3:15:19 PM PST by OldDeckHand
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