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Jury Finds Man Guilty of Murder in Kansas Abortion Providerís Death
Foxnews.com ^ | 1/29/10

Posted on 01/29/2010 9:49:10 AM PST by FutureRocketMan

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To: trumandogz

Don’t get carried away, dogz, the posited silliness is based upon the faulty notion that the perp establishes the legality. Ain’t that way, as you know. A murderer murdered a murderer might sound right, but the law was protecting Tiller the killer so he was not leaglly a murderer, unfortunately for our twisted American society.


151 posted on 01/29/2010 12:09:10 PM PST by MHGinTN (Obots, believing they cannot be deceived, it is impossible to convince them when they are deceived.)
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To: Elpasser
But “murder” means an unjustifiable killing of a human.

No, murder is the unlawful killing of another human being with intent. Big difference. And Roeder's actions were obviously and clearly unlawful.

152 posted on 01/29/2010 12:09:52 PM PST by dmz
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To: trumandogz
Pick your poison, I'm not Roeder so I can only assume he went after the person whom he felt was the most egregious to him.
153 posted on 01/29/2010 12:10:58 PM PST by whatisthetruth
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To: DryFly

Well then our entire society is whacko for allowing abortion and Roeder is just one of the many. Welcome to the club.


154 posted on 01/29/2010 12:13:35 PM PST by whatisthetruth
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To: TexasFreeper2009

Not in this lifetime.


155 posted on 01/29/2010 12:14:16 PM PST by Melas
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To: FutureRocketMan
"Roeder had to prove his innocence in this case, and this case shouldn't have been confined to the state either. "

You understand that Roeder elected to engage an affirmative defense, right? Do you understand the principle of an affirmative defense? When you employ an affirmative defense, the burden of proof shifts from prosecution to defense. It then becomes the defense's burden to prove their case.

As for, "this case shouldn't have been confined to the state either", I have no idea what you mean.

156 posted on 01/29/2010 12:14:53 PM PST by OldDeckHand
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To: patton
Would you have a right to kill hitler in the 1930’s, given a chance? Or would it be wrong, because it was illegal?

Do you want me to answer that philosophically?

157 posted on 01/29/2010 12:15:18 PM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (We bury Democrats face down so that when they scratch, they get closer to home.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Here’s a direct quote from editor-surveyor on another thread: “He should be lauded for his courage.”

Try as we might, me and some others just couldn’t convince this guy that selective outrage about 1st degree murder works against prolifers.


158 posted on 01/29/2010 12:15:54 PM PST by LussaO
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To: FutureRocketMan

I’ve read the entire thread and see that others have already corrected you as to the evidence and confession of Roeder.

I agree with the jury’s findings and was not surprised at the guilty verdict.

There is one question that I’d be interested in knowing the answer to from those who feel that Roeder was justified in murdering the abortion doctor and/or that he should not have been found guilty. The question is: Would you murder an abortion doctor? If not, why not?


159 posted on 01/29/2010 12:17:05 PM PST by CaribouCrossing
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To: sickoflibs
There is, in a law, such a thing as a "justification defense," (sometimes called "necessity defense" or "choice- of-evils defense.") In the past, but very infrequently, it has prevailed in misdemeanor cases (e.g. simple trespass.) And there are cases where it is justifiable: it's certainly legitimate to discuss it.

I'd be very much surprised if any FReepers said it was applicable in a 1st degree murder case. I knew, personally, such a murdrer once (Jim Kopp). My best guess is that he would attract a measure of conflicted pity here, but no applause.

160 posted on 01/29/2010 12:18:23 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Western Civilization: contracepting, buggering, and aborting itself out of existence.)
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To: Knitebane
You seem a bit unclear on the definition of murder.

So if a sniper shoots an unarmed enemy general while he is reviewing the troops, is the sniper guilty of murder?

By using the term 'enemy general', can I assume I am at war with this general? Of course, then, the answer is quite simple. Obviously, no, there is no murder that has taken place. The sniper is operating within the law.

How about an executioner that flips the switch that kills a man strapped down to a table?

Murder is the unlawful killing of a human with intent. The executioner is carrying out a lawful order.

161 posted on 01/29/2010 12:21:35 PM PST by dmz
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To: CaribouCrossing

...those who feel that Roeder was justified in murdering the abortion doctor and/or that he should not have been found guilty. The question is: Would you murder an abortion doctor? If not, why not?

* * * * * *

I was trying to ask a few of them that myself last night. I asked them what was I to surmise from their inaction - that either they agree murder is morally reprehensibile, or that they just don’t have the “guts.” They didn’t answer me, just called me a buncha names and ran away.


162 posted on 01/29/2010 12:22:03 PM PST by LussaO
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To: eleni121

So you don’t dispute the facts that I posted? You just want to add some to the discussion.

I’m good with that.

However, premeditated murder, which Roeder admitted on the stand is still premeditated murder even with what you have added. Hence, guilty of 1st degree murder.


163 posted on 01/29/2010 12:27:23 PM PST by dmz
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To: trumandogz

One can only wonder if Roeder had made it to another country like Polanski, would these pro-1st-degree murder freepers aid and abet him in his flight from justice? Ah, we’ll never know, but going by what they’ve said already ....


164 posted on 01/29/2010 12:27:54 PM PST by LussaO
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To: Concho
Dont be so sure about that. There are meetings going on today in the Kansas Legislature I understand that may change that law over this.

It wouldn't affect this case. Ex post facto law.

165 posted on 01/29/2010 12:27:56 PM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: MHGinTN
"Don’t get carried away, dogz, the posited silliness is based upon the faulty notion that the perp establishes the legality.

I'm not getting carried away at all.

People here are justifying the murder of Dr. Tiller based on his late term abortion business.

These same people believe that life begins at conception.

That being the case, they must also advocate the killing of those who participate in abortion at any state of gestation.

However, they seem to be unwilling to justify the murder of the pharmacist who dispenses abortion pills.

166 posted on 01/29/2010 12:28:15 PM PST by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: FutureRocketMan

24-week abortion
167 posted on 01/29/2010 12:29:11 PM PST by Cedar
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To: Mr. K
The only thing about this trial on the other hand is that they asked him why he did it but then would not let him answer.

If he said he did it because the voices from mars told him to then that would be acceptable- but the prosecuton objected to any statements about abortion procedures

This is a very big deal, and possible cause for an appeal, because his blocked explanation could be argued to have affected the invocation of jury nullification. In fact, that's probably why he was silenced, to prevent the application of the murder law to be thrown out, under the circumstances, in favor of justifiable homicide.

Of course, the judge no doubt refused to inform the jury of their right to nullify the application of the law anyway. But even so, the entry of his explanation into the court proceedings would have made it subject to consideration on appeal.

To rule the reasoning for the premeditation as irrelevent is, I think, not something that would survive appeal, since it could obviously effect the application of the law against him.

168 posted on 01/29/2010 12:29:19 PM PST by Talisker (When you find a turtle on top of a fence post, you can be damn sure it didn't get there on it's own.)
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To: mlizzy

“...but abortion does indeed drive some people “nuts,” and Roeder evidently wasn’t able to explain that the tens of thousands of babies that Tiller killed, may have done just that to him. It was grossly unfair that he did not get to state his case in that regard.”

Just like the terrorists don’t get to explain that the treatment of Palestinians drives them “nuts.” Some things the law is just not going to recognize as an excuse.


169 posted on 01/29/2010 12:29:30 PM PST by freethinker_for_freedom
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To: dmz

I think “unjustifiable” killing is a more appropriate def’n of “murder” than “unlawful.”

2 illustrations:

Would you agree that Cain’s killing of his brother Abel, before there were written statutes, was “murder”?

Would you further agree that Mengele’s fatal experimentation on human beings was likewise “murder”? — even though it might have been permissible under existing Nazi law.

I think one of the founding principles of our country is that, yes, there is a higher law, which is what “inalienable” rights are derived from.


170 posted on 01/29/2010 12:29:41 PM PST by Elpasser
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To: dmz

The problem is that the charge does not fit the crime.

When when some guy is running the streets killing people, and somebody decides to kill him to prevent more mayhem - that is not premeditated murder.

The Judge allowed only that charge. I see that as flawed. Therefore the whole trial is flawed.


171 posted on 01/29/2010 12:31:22 PM PST by eleni121 (For Jesus did not give us a timid spirit , but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline)
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To: LussaO

“I was trying to ask a few of them that myself last night. I asked them what was I to surmise from their inaction - that either they agree murder is morally reprehensibile, or that they just don’t have the “guts.” They didn’t answer me, just called me a buncha names and ran away.”

I missed that. I believe it is an excellent question that deserves an honest answer. Perhaps someone will answer my question today. If not, their silence will speak for itself.

For those that missed it, my question is, “Would you murder an abortion doctor? If not, why not?”


172 posted on 01/29/2010 12:32:57 PM PST by CaribouCrossing
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To: Elpasser

There is a higher law

* * * * *

Tell it to the higher judge.


173 posted on 01/29/2010 12:35:13 PM PST by LussaO
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To: All

I figure I should let people know where I stand on the issue of abortion so that my question can be viewed for what it is. A simple question. I am pro-life.


174 posted on 01/29/2010 12:35:42 PM PST by CaribouCrossing
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To: NoControllingLegalAuthority

“The Nuremberg Nazi trials were all about holding people accountable for inhuman atrocities that can never be morally justified by claiming the atrocities were legal under governmental laws and required by the orders of leaders.

We humans MUST prevent atrocities and murders that violate fundamental moral law.”

Are you saying that you support an international court to deal with war crimes, and that U.S. military personnel should be subject to it?


175 posted on 01/29/2010 12:35:45 PM PST by freethinker_for_freedom
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To: Ronbo1948
If I had been on that jury, I’d voted Roeder “not guilty” because he stopped an arrogant mass murderer dead in his tracks.

I believe Late Term Tiller was an abominable Dr. Mengele but unfortunately he also was "legal" in the opinion of Kansas lawmakers...that makes Roeder a murderer in the eyes of the law. He deserves the harshest sentence the law can mete out.

176 posted on 01/29/2010 12:36:37 PM PST by meandog (OWEbummercare: "Arbeit Macht Frei!")
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To: FutureRocketMan

Thank heavens! Guilty of first degree murder.


177 posted on 01/29/2010 12:37:02 PM PST by BunnySlippers (I LOVE BULL MARKETS . . .)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

From the original poster’s profile page, “I support, defend, and thank Scott Roeder for his saving of unborn children by killing George Tiller”

So there you go.


178 posted on 01/29/2010 12:37:43 PM PST by Melas
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To: Elpasser

Rational does not describe murder.


179 posted on 01/29/2010 12:38:20 PM PST by twigs
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To: CaribouCrossing

We could present a less-loaded question for them, if they’d like. “What if you knew Scott Roeder, and he came up to you saying “I just killed Dr. Tiller, the police are after me, help me,” — would they do it, or turn him in?


180 posted on 01/29/2010 12:39:05 PM PST by LussaO
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To: meandog

What makes Dr. Tiller’s actions worse than an abortionist who performs first trimester abortions or worse than a pharmacist that dispenses “morning after pills?”


181 posted on 01/29/2010 12:39:26 PM PST by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: Elpasser
I think “unjustifiable” killing is a more appropriate def’n of “murder” than “unlawful.”

Chuckling. Of course you do, as it enables you cover Roeder's butt, which you are quite inclined to do, as you see Tiller's murder as justified.

182 posted on 01/29/2010 12:42:39 PM PST by dmz
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To: CaribouCrossing; LussaO
Was Roeder morally justified? I'm open to it. Legally justified? Obviously not. Would I murder an abortion doctor? Not there yet, but I won't condemn Roeder for following through on the strength of his convictions, after all, if you think it's murder, then shouldn't you expect to act like it's murder?

Most of us have accepted the ongoing genocide of the unborn in our midst as business as usual, obviously a few people are deeply troubled by it and feel at this point and time after 37 years of it something drastic has to be done to stop it.

183 posted on 01/29/2010 12:42:41 PM PST by whatisthetruth
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To: eleni121

“When when some guy is running the streets killing people, and somebody decides to kill him to prevent more mayhem...”

So, according to you, Roeder would have also been justified in killing a pharmacist or killing random women since one in four American women of child bearing age will have an abortion?


184 posted on 01/29/2010 12:43:17 PM PST by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: trumandogz

What makes Dr. Tiller’s actions worse than an abortionist who performs first trimester abortions or worse than a pharmacist that dispenses “morning after pills?”


Well, “quickening” for one...Sorry, but I believe in a “Point of No Return” in pregnancy. Given all that is known in the medical community today, if a woman cannot make a decision by the end of her first 15 weeks then too bad. There is a difference between a non-viable-fetus-outside-the-womb and a premature human being!


185 posted on 01/29/2010 12:44:53 PM PST by meandog (OWEbummercare: "Arbeit Macht Frei!")
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To: LussaO

I think the wording and intent of my question is a simple and honest one. It was offered in that spirit and it is definitely not a “loaded” question.

Your question is an interesting one (re: would they turn him Roeder in, or help him?)


186 posted on 01/29/2010 12:45:04 PM PST by CaribouCrossing
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To: Soothesayer
There are 20-50 million more completely evil vermin in this country who would gladly take Tiller’s place at the alter of child sacrifice.

But, there aren't. No one has stepped up to take his place, at least no one that wasn't performing late-term abortions already. The number of abortionists and clinics are dwindling.

187 posted on 01/29/2010 12:45:35 PM PST by Ol' Sparky (Liberal Republicans are the greater of two evils)
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To: eleni121
When when some guy is running the streets killing people, and somebody decides to kill him to prevent more mayhem - that is not premeditated murder.

Quite the fanciful picture you paint above, just a shame that it does not, in any way, correspond to Roeder's premeditated murder of Tiller.

188 posted on 01/29/2010 12:46:15 PM PST by dmz
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To: Ol' Sparky

Which means that there are more little humans alive today than would have been if Tiller continued his practice.


189 posted on 01/29/2010 12:47:26 PM PST by MrB (The difference between a humanist and a Satanist is that the latter knows who he's working for.)
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To: ohioWfan
It is not within our realm of understanding, our responsibility, nor our right to take another human life.

Unless it in self-defense.

I never stated what Roeder did was justified, just that it is absurd to claim his act of murder equates to the acts committed by those on death row. Those calling for the death penalty for Roeder are pro-deathers trying to exploit the incident.

190 posted on 01/29/2010 12:47:51 PM PST by Ol' Sparky (Liberal Republicans are the greater of two evils)
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To: MrB

It’s possible that there are babies alive today who would have otherwise have been aborted but not for . . . However, Dr. Tiller’s murder did not end the practice of abortion. If we are to make any strides in ending this barbaric practice it will require changing people’s attitudes towards abortion and not the commission of murder of those who practice this procedure.


191 posted on 01/29/2010 12:49:23 PM PST by SoldierDad (Proud Papa of two new Army Brats!! Congrats to my Army son and his wife.)
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To: Ol' Sparky

The number of abortionists and clinics are dwindling.

* * * * * *

I would rather attribute that to the sonograms slowly changing hearts and minds. I am loathe to credit that to a nutcase who killed an abortionist in cold blood.


192 posted on 01/29/2010 12:49:50 PM PST by LussaO
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Back about 10 years ago our Dem Governor (MD) Parris Glendening pardoned a dozen or two dozen women convicted for killing their husbands because they made the “Burning Bed” type claim that they were in danger(that is how he sold it) . Then it came out that most of the murders were pre-meditated, many very coldly calculated with unpleasant details. These women started to look like that Woman Serial killer in the true movie “The Monster”. That Dem governor lost his re-election in a heavily Democrat state. This didnt help him get women votes at all.
193 posted on 01/29/2010 12:50:17 PM PST by sickoflibs ( "It's not the taxes, the redistribution is spending you demand stupid")
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To: whatisthetruth

Thank you for your honest and insightful response, whatisthetruth.


194 posted on 01/29/2010 12:50:18 PM PST by CaribouCrossing
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To: Knitebane

Preaching to the choir.


195 posted on 01/29/2010 12:50:29 PM PST by SoldierDad (Proud Papa of two new Army Brats!! Congrats to my Army son and his wife.)
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To: dmz

It may seem “fanciful” in your mind, but I gave provided for you a generous picture of the beastly actions of Tiller.

Killing people in the streets is one thing as horrible as that is, but ripping them apart from within and outside their mothers’ wombs is another.


196 posted on 01/29/2010 12:52:43 PM PST by eleni121 (For Jesus did not give us a timid spirit , but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline)
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To: meandog
...if a woman cannot make a decision by the end of her first 15 weeks then too bad.

Yes, too bad for that Human Baby at 14 weeks gestation which you believe is some how inferior to a baby at 20 weeks gestation or a child in a kindergarden class.

197 posted on 01/29/2010 12:53:02 PM PST by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: sickoflibs

People can say whatever they like, but one fact remains! Dr Tiller will never perform another abortion, this is a fact that can not be disputed by anybody.


198 posted on 01/29/2010 12:54:27 PM PST by Friendofgeorge ( SARAH PALIN or BUST.)
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To: Ol' Sparky
Of course, self defense, and in just wars as well.

I am not calling for the death penalty in this case, but I'm not sure how his act of murder is different from some others who believed they were justified in killing their victims.

This is an inexcusable act at every level, and those on this forum and on this thread who are cheering on the murder of abortion doctors by anyone should take some time to think about what they're really advocating.

199 posted on 01/29/2010 12:55:54 PM PST by ohioWfan (Proud Mom of a Bronze Star recipient!)
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To: whatisthetruth

PS:

You said you’re “not there yet”. May I ask, “why”? I know that’s probably a difficult question, but I’m just wondering if what prevents most people from Roeder-style justice is that they believe that committing murder is a sin no matter who does it, or is it a fear of going to prison, or something else altogether.


200 posted on 01/29/2010 12:57:26 PM PST by CaribouCrossing
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