Posted on 02/01/2010 11:23:59 PM PST by ErnstStavroBlofeld
What appears to be of particular concern to the EMP commission is the scepter of terrorist groups or so-called “rogue” nations carrying out such an attack. As outlined by Dr. Pry, one of the commissioners, before a 2005 Senate Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Homeland Security, “[a] nuclear missile concealed in the hold of a freighter would give Iran, or terrorists, the capability to perform an EMP attack against the United States homeland, without developing an ICBM, and with some prospect of remaining anonymous. Iran’s Shahab-3 medium-range missile… is a mobile missile, and small enough to be transported in the hold of a freighter.” However, as mentioned above, such missiles have a payload capacity of approximately 1,000 kilograms corresponding to a crude U-based warhead of ~1 kiloton yield if, and when, the Iranians eventually develop nuclear weapons. Even the North Koreans, who are much further along in their weapons program, have had great difficulty reaching even a ~5 kiloton yield from their Pu-based devices in carefully orchestrated ground-tests, and their 2009 test was likely a fizzle.
If a terrorist cell miraculously built such a weapon, they are likely to explode their “crown jewel” in a simple spectacular ground-burst that will destroy a large part of a city, and not risk the complications—and likely failure—of a lofted EMP strike.
(Excerpt) Read more at thespacereview.com ...
http://nipp.org/National%20Institute%20Press/Current%20Publications/PDF/EMP%20Paper%20Final%20November07.pdf
Report on Emerging EMP threat-This works!
Ping
If they detonate on NYC soil, do what you have to do first then take out the terrorists. I’m in NYC and am likely one of their worst fears.
This would be the best tactic if one were to desire a knockout punch. I am guessing we have it. If we don't, we should.
Well, the Iranians and North Koreans are fast approaching the capability. If there is a EMP everything from microchips to who entire grids would be totally destroyed. That why if there is a nuclear attack the first sign of an impending attack will be an EMP burst
To prevent EMP,shield each radio against EMP when not in use by completely surrounding it with conducting metal if it is kept within six feet of a long conductor through which powerful currents produced by EMP might surge. A radio may be shielded against EMP by placing it inside a metal cake box or metal storage can, or by completely surrounding it with aluminum foil or metallic window screen.
I am not expert in the field and know little more than the average joe, but I do have a electrical background. Communications is easy to disrupt, but harder to destroy.
Older stuff was not well shielded, but the late model equipment is hardened a bit, even the civilian stuff. We had a lot of issues with sun spots over the years and they made it much better.
Car electronics are another story. There is no ground path to the earth, and the excess voltage generated by a EMP would require aviation shielding.
Anyhoo, I could see a metro area going dark, or even a large portion of the power grid for a time, until they got the controls reset and the generators back in sync, but the damage would not be permanent from a air burst of tactical or medium size. I don't think the NK's, terrorists or Iranians could field anything bigger and they could get better results on the ground. As to the big boys, they could take us out but it would take a biggun......IMO.
The EMP spike is created as the electromagnetic pulses cross the wires and create a transient voltage spike in the several thousands of volts range. This can arc to anything within inches and even feet, and that is how the devices get damaged and people too.
The metal cake box or metal storage can seems to give minimum saftey
Yes, that is a problem with very few solutions.
You are correct.Keep all unshielded radios at least six feet away from any long piece of metal, such as pipes, metal ducts, or wires found in many basements and other shelters. Long metal conductors can pick up and carry large EMP surges, causing induced current to surge in nearby radios and damage them
A good UPS backup system does more then just allow to to save your work during a power outage. It isolates the machine from the power grid.
Just one good suggestion but the Internet would be down anyway but you would save the computer.
I think a ersatz cheap EMP would do some damage to a locality, but we are a big country. The damage would be quickly fixed. The terrorist of wannabe superpower would likely decide that if they had one shot, it would be better placed on the ground.
Good Point. I agree
Iran readies launch of new satellite
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2382720/posts
Iran military engineers on hand for N. Korea missile launch
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1664760/posts
(7/12/06)
10 Iranian Missile Engineers Visited N. Korea:Sankei reports(check on NK’s Chinese equipments)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1658850/posts
(07/01/06)
Russia, N.Korea, China give Iran missile aid -CIA
09/08/01
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/519198/posts
It depends on how high the hypothetical device would be detonated. 300 miles up could be a problem. Although the historically tested nuclear weapons bursts low in the atmosphere wouldn’t affect equipment far to the sides of a burst (heavy atmosphere down low), the atmosphere over the top of us gets thin pretty quick. Simple physical example... Those of you who live on mountain ranges can actually see and feel the difference.
I think they are having problems with their triggers, and that takes some doing. I think triggers are the only thing Iran needs to complete theirs.
Yes. That’s a good point about NK and triggers. It’s hard to tell for sure, though. For their first test, they used a complex designed by the Russians for avoiding detection from the air (cave with baffles). ...could work with a small device, but then it could have been a dud.
You know China has the necessary machining tech. for another part. So do Russia and Pakistan (re. Khan, who’s work has been running all over the place, apparently).
Also, I don't think we would have a problem shooting it down before it reached the Continental US.
We tested that system a while back and it worked fine. I am beginning to wonder why we announced that radar failure so quickly. I wonder if they are playing a few head games with the Mullahs.
The Ideal EMP would be one that has multiple focused pulses. ))))) rather than )..............
I am not going to worry much about it, cuz if they tried it, they would never be seen or heard from again and chunks of silica glass would be for sale on Ebay.
I agree, and in an attempt to preclude the crazies from ever getting one of these weapons I propose the following:
Any nation not now having nukes should be warned that any evidence they are even thinking about producing one will be met with a demand to cease and desist. If there is again evidence they are proceeding a final warning and a detailed threat of what will be done to stop them should be issued. This can include annihilation of key infrastructure and a concerted attempt to dismantle and dispatch, with extreme prejudice the ruling body of the nation.
My thought is it will be necessary to actually carry out this threat at least once because it is unlikely the savages would believe we would actually do as we threatened due to world opinion coming down so hard against us. However once carried out it would serve as a strong deterrent against other nations following a similar path to nuclear weapons development.
Any nation interested in peaceful development of nuclear power will of course be able to pursue it's goals with the strict oversight of developed peaceful nations.
Doesn't it completely fry all integrated circuits (unless it's hardened)? That would put us out for quite a long time since all manufacturing equipment would also be down. I didn't think an EMP effect was a "temporary" thing.
ping & bump for later reading
“Keep all unshielded radios at least six feet away from any long piece of metal, such as pipes, metal ducts, or wires found in many basements and other shelters. Long metal conductors can pick up and carry large EMP surges, causing induced current to surge in nearby radios and damage them”
This is nonsense. The E1 pulse is the one that kills electronics. The long-conductor, or E3 effect will not generally harm electronics, unless they are plugged in and a failure in the grid is manifested by a power spike.
“The reason the power wires are so sensitive to EMP is that they are not solid wire. They are comprised of dozens or even hundreds of individual conductors bundled together. As the field passes through it creates a lot of juice. It’s acts like a generator. The power lines are spaces apart as they are to prevent them from creating their own EMP’s from the alternating current they carry normally. They don’t have a chance against a strong emp and are the first thing affected along with radio transmissions.. “
No. bundled wire has nothing to do with it.
” The power lines are spaces apart as they are to prevent them from creating their own EMP’s from the alternating current they carry normally.”
They are spaced apart to act as a conductor with a larger cross-section to avoid exceeding the breakdown voltage of air
“They don’t have a chance against a strong emp and are the first thing affected along with radio transmissions.. “
E1 pulse occurs in nanoseconds and *can* blow electronics....E3 is caused by the physics of a fireball coupling with the geomagnetic field and occurs of tens or hundreds of seconds and is generally proportional to weapon yield.
Don't forget the cat.
No, I think people watch too many disaster movies...LOL...No offense meant here, but the IC's are not directly the cause of electronic damages. What kills them is a voltage spike that gets into the device from external wiring, antenna's, or through the power supplies which have transformers in them. Any long lengths of wire, cable, copper coils in transformers, chokes, shunts etc will and do produce voltage spikes during a EMP event. The size of the spike is directly related to the size of the EMP and chips are very sensitive to voltage transients that are higher than the normal control voltage, usually about 3-5 volts.
When some 50 thousand volts or even 30V hit it, it fries the control inputs within the chip rendering it useless.
They will take the easy way out and blow it in the harbor. They are looking for publicity, not real damage. They could not capitalize on an EMP burst, so why spend the money and time.
According to my experimentation with solid verses bundles and published testing, there is a huge difference with EMP. The solid wire has but one cross section that intersects with the pulse and the bundled wire has many. As each wire is intersected the potential increases as does the ability to carry the spike. This is a known aspect to calculate induction which is just like a EMP issue IMO for explanation sake.
I mentioned the wire spacing to illustrate the known fact that the pulse creates a spike that will easily jump these distances. Yes I am aware that air is a insulator. In fact it is air and surface oxidation or lack of a molecular bond that can cause the individual wire within a stranded bundle to act as individual wires. This is why the ampacity of a stranded wire compared to the same size solid wire has a significantly higher ampactity. It is believed that electricity travels along the surface area of the conductors. More surface area, more electrons and with a EMP pulse, more individual wires intersect the field like a generator coil and produce a higher potential.
Some is this is theoretical and my own observed behavior over my career. I don't think you will find it in a book, but the inductance and reluctance formulas are useful in figuring out the end results of a pulse on different sizes and types of wire. You can run the calculations using the OD of a stranded wire, but the formulas only work with solid. If you use stranded, you have to modify the formula by calculating the individual wires within the bundle for it to be accurate as they may be in contact, but there is no molecular level bond. These differences are substantial and probably best illustrated by the much higher ampacity of a stranded wire when compared to the exact same OD in a solid.
So you’re saying the circuits are unharmed, they’re just the carrier for the voltage spike, and it’s the actual computer processors that are fried by that voltage spike?
Still, isn’t that six of one, half dozen the other? If my car doesn’t have an engine or it doesn’t have tires, it’s still not going anywhere, regardless of which reason.
Yes, that makes sense. I would think the longer E-3 would disrupt communications in the same way that the plasma stream from a reentry vehicle disrupts com for NASA.
The path of the damage will be easy to trace, but hard to predict.
Let's say the electronics are in a car with no grounding. The pulse would generate excess voltage in parts like the ignition coils, audio speaker coils, small transformers that provide regulated power to you car computer and the like. This voltage will have to enter the devices like your CD player, nav system, and electronic ignition controller. Not to forget the battery.
The excess voltage does not have to be created in the device that is damaged by it. This is why the idea of wrapping your computer in tin foil as some suggest at times, does no good if it's still plugged into the wall socket. Isolate the power from the grid, and then you might have some protection, both for the computer power supplies, and from the expected grid spike. The IC, or chip is comprised mostly of silicon. It does not have copper or aluminum coils of wire or anything else that would generate voltage sufficient to kill it's self. It's the other stuff needed to power the chip that does.
“The solid wire has but one cross section that intersects with the pulse and the bundled wire has many. As each wire is intersected the potential increases as does the ability to carry the spike. This is a known aspect to calculate induction which is just like a EMP issue IMO for explanation sake.”
Yes, but assuming each individual strand is independent of each other (and we know they are not) then worst case is that they will have the same voltage impressed upon them. This isn’t like a transformer where each winding turn is in fact insulated and independent - so a flux line crosses each winding multiple times, increasing the voltage each time.
If you have a bunch of wires parallel and independent and a flux line goes through it, the same voltage will be impressed upon each.
You will increase the current on the bundle, but this is little different than a solid wire of the same dimension.
Well, I must admit that during my entire career, I have gone head to head with many engineers and I assume from your handle that you are a engineer.
One of the most aggravating aspects of electrical construction and maintenance is the undeniable issues where engineering and the actual applications part ways more time then I would like.
You made the same assumptions I did when I first started dealing with motors, motor controllers and related magnetic fields. I discovered the hard way that wire OD, (outside diameter) which is used to find all sorts of data and tables, will not be accurate in field applications when using stranded wire.
It took me some time to understand electricity and how it flows in the form of electrons jumping orbits, causing another to jump in the adjacent atom and so on. Again, as of several years ago when I hung up my tools, there was still a lot of theory attached to the actual activity of current flow where voltage is well understood in most areas and materials. Or so they tell me.
As to multi part stranded wire, I can only tell you what I personally know based on in field calculations, measurements and practical applications.
We do many calculations based on the cross section measurements of a wire, but a multi stranded wire which we use for most distribution, is more akin to a cable assy. then a wire.
Although the individual wires are of the same material, the same size and the same lengths as they are twisted, they act individually because electricity flows largely on the surface of the wire, so surface area becomes the primary data point to follow so that you can estimate performance under load.
I don't know why this is, but it is and I have verified this hundreds of times during my career and there is a lot of data to confirm this.
As there is no molecular or atomic bonds between the individual wires, having no insulation on them does not make them act like a single wire.
I discovered this characteristic while maintaining/ repairing motors. The solid wire and the same size stranded wires when used in a magnetic application did not perform the same at all and at the time I did not know exactly why. The fields produced by a stranded wire were not the same as the solid. I investigated this via trial and error and discovered that the two types of wire were not interchangeable in this application and that started a quest to understand it better.
Now this works in reverse as well where the voltage and current induced in a stranded wire of the same dimensions and material is not like that of a solid.
What I found was that the stranded wire voltages were higher then the solid, and it induced more current when exposed to the alternating magnetic field. Because of the twists, the field created by the wire was also different and not usable for the application.
To sum up, the two are not interchangeable and the reason is the individual parts of the wire assy.
Electrical calculations were not accurate with the cross sectional dimensions and much more accurate figuring it individually although neither worked out exactly which I suppose is normal when you move from the theory to the reality.
We use stranded wire in distribution because in practice it has less resistance per foot then solid. It carries more current, and it is more durable. But all this becomes a drawback when dealing with EMP induced voltages because it is more efficient in creating them. There is only one explanation in my mind for this and that is that the individual wires of the assembly act independently even though they are in contact which dramatically increases the surface area. Now how to plug a formula into this and make it accurate, is a project that I don't know much about. I have never seen anyone try to calculate this and I am not a math guy, but I could figure out a percentage to derate the solid as opposed to the stranded that might hold up with all the different sizes and configurations with differing twists and groupings.
My ball park guess is a 50% increase in most all characteristics from current carry to voltage induction and then you need to take some induction off because of the twists which have a tendency to cancel out any natural induction. This gives it better heat dissipation and all around power handling capabilities. I know this does not square up with the latest tables, but they are guides only and mainly geared to ampacity and resistance per foot. The tables don't address induction and very few people are concerned about air cooled transmission lines as a rule in this trade.
I got into it after some damage to a system that I believe was cause by EMP induction due to sun activity back in the 80s. I then got involved in some old tech motor control Mag_Amps which can control a AC Motor, speed, torque and direction with virtually no moving parts or electronics except for the hand controller and a few relays and small DC power supply. It's all done with inductance and reactance. It caused me to think about all this and come to conclusions based on what I saw, tested and measured.
I think that there may be some ways to better protect our power grids from induced voltages by using induction it's self, to dampen it, but I have not given it much thought in years until I saw this thread. The big thing would be costs, but I don't think it would require anything that needs maintenance. It would simply be a different construction method for the distribution grids and may not even be necessary to do but every so many thousands of feet that would collectively dampen a spike and not allow it to damage equipment. I'm thinking that they may already have it and if they do, they are not likely to be sharing which probably explains some things I saw at power plants that they would not tell me about and told me to pretend I never saw it. But that's another story.
I better stop, I have a lot of passion about this stuff and tend to run off at the mouth unless stopped....LOL
Look friend, I made no assumptions about stranded versus solid wires other than to say that a flux field traveling across one versus the other would result in similar voltage levels.
If you think you can get a significantly different result using a stranded wire vice a solid one, then you are free to say so - it’s just that for and EMP, it is unlikely to occur.
Skin-effect is an AC phenomenon - at low frequencies (even lower than (60 Hz) such as an EMP induced pulse, skin effect will be trivial (because inductance will be trivial).
I respect your experience and your passion about the subject, but we are talking about two different things, apparently.
I quess I'll let this go.
LOL
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/report/1984/ERD.htm
EMP
Submitted To
Mr. Wiggins
In Partial Fulfillment of Requirements
for Written Communications
The Marine Corps Command and Staff College
Quantico, Virginia
Major R. D. Erick
United States Marine Corps
April 6, 1984
Excerpt:
“However, the effects produced by a nuclear explosion were not fully realized until the “Johnston Island Test” in 1962. This nuclear blast had a yield of 1.4 megatons at an altitude of 250 miles. The explosion damaged a number of low earth orbit satellites and caused malfunctions and early failure of others. Another effect that was noted during the blast was a blackout up to 600 miles away of high frequency radio communications that lasted for hours. It was caused by disruption of the ionosphere. It also popped circuit breakers, street lights went out, burglar alarms rang, and power lines went down in Honolulu, about 800 miles away. In Nov. 1962, all above ground testing was halted and our testing and analysis was limited to underground testing, analysis of the existing atmospheric test data, nonnuclear simulation, and theoretical calculations.”
Yep.
Starfish Prime. It carried a W49 warhead on a Thor Rocket
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