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F-22 Or F-35: The Plane Truth
Investors.com ^ | February 4, 2010 | INVESTORS BUSINESS DAILY Staff

Posted on 02/04/2010 5:54:00 PM PST by Kaslin

Defense: The administration decision to scrap a proven aircraft in favor of a supposedly cheaper, more flexible replacement is proving to be an expensive mistake. We may wind up defenseless and broke.

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter that was supposed to be America's frontline fighter for the foreseeable future is in big trouble. Defense Secretary Robert Gates fired the general in charge of the program this week amid concerns of spiraling costs and program delays.

Gates also announced he is withholding $614 million in fees from the prime contractor, Lockheed Martin. Daniel J. Crowley, one of Lockheed Martin's project managers, has acknowledged that the program is running at least six months behind schedule.

Gates was questioned about the program at a Senate hearing on Tuesday. He said he was unaware of a report by a special Pentagon assessment team in late 2008 that found development of the plane could be delayed by 2 1/2 years with $16.6 billion in cost overruns. Judging by his decisions, he is not unaware that the F-35 program, designed to fill the needs of all three services, is in trouble.

After hearing Gates' testimony, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., said: "I'm still concerned about whether the services will get the (Joint Strike Fighters) when they need them."

He's right to be concerned: Further program delays will drive up per-unit costs, the wings are literally falling off our F-15s and F-16s, and the administration has killed further production of the F-22 Raptor. With what will we fight?

(Excerpt) Read more at investors.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aerialwarfare; aerospace; af22; aircombat; airdefense; airdominance; airforce; airpower; airsuperiority; bho44; bhodefense; defense; defensebudget; defensedepartment; defenseless; defensespending; f22; f22raptor; f35; f35lightning; f35lightningii; f35lightnings; fighter; ibd; jsf; lockheedmartin; militaryaviation; nationaldefense; nationalsecurity; obama; pakfa; pentagon; raptor; raptor22; raptoribd; robertgates; savetheraptor; stealth; sukhoi; t50; usaf
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1 posted on 02/04/2010 5:54:00 PM PST by Kaslin
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To: Kaslin
With what will we fight?

UN Resolutions. /s
2 posted on 02/04/2010 5:55:21 PM PST by randomhero97 ("First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow!" - Ash)
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To: Kaslin

There hasn’t been a Navy plane that has been worth a SH*T since the F-14 and A-6 IRONWORKS PLANES RULE! F/A-18s SUCK!


3 posted on 02/04/2010 5:56:05 PM PST by US Navy Vet
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To: Kaslin

The problem w/ defense companies is that they build secrecy into their culture. That is understandable.

Where this goes wrong is that everyone gets into the habit of lying to everyone else, and expect to be lied to in turn. Therefore, when the truth matters, it cannot be found.


4 posted on 02/04/2010 5:57:24 PM PST by TWohlford
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To: Kaslin
We may wind up defenseless and broke.

We're already broke; Obama is well on his way to making us defenseless.
5 posted on 02/04/2010 5:58:04 PM PST by Terpfen (FR is being Alinskied. Remember, you only take flak when you're over the target.)
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To: Terpfen

Right now India has more new main line fighters on order with Russia than we are planning to build. Something is wrong. We need to revive the F-22. Gates is a wimp and disaster. Find him a butt buddy and put him out to pasture.
We need a real SecDef.


6 posted on 02/04/2010 6:02:09 PM PST by Oldexpat
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To: US Navy Vet
There hasn’t been a Navy plane that has been worth a SH*T since the F-14 and A-6 IRONWORKS PLANES RULE! F/A-18s SUCK!

I've seen them all fly, and I am not impressed with the F-18 going vertical. The F-14D with the GE's was stunning.

IMHO they should have never cancelled the A12. Even overweight, it would have matched the A6 in performance and given the Navy Stealth, end of story. From there weight reduction etc. could have done. Look @ all the money for the F-18E/F. A follow on upgrade might have worked even better.

7 posted on 02/04/2010 6:02:41 PM PST by taildragger (Palin/Mulally 2012)
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To: taildragger

Tailhook 91 KILLED the F-14/A-6 community.


8 posted on 02/04/2010 6:04:10 PM PST by US Navy Vet
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To: Kaslin

F22 OR F35?

False dichotomy.


9 posted on 02/04/2010 6:04:35 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks. Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: US Navy Vet

This is why you don’t kill a running production line (F-22) until you are darn sure you don’t need any more.

The original plan was to replace some 1500 F-15s with 750 F-22s and now we say 187 is all we need.


10 posted on 02/04/2010 6:04:41 PM PST by djwright (I know who's my daddy, do you?)
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To: US Navy Vet

You ain’t kidding. An A-6 could carry more ordnance than two B-17s. The Navy is now trying to use the FA-18 for a replacement for the EA-6B.


11 posted on 02/04/2010 6:05:47 PM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Truth - Reality through the eyes of God.)
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To: US Navy Vet

“Got a new plane for ya. It’s not as fast, has less range, and has less payload than the plane it’s replacing.” At that point the Navy shoulda said “If this is a joke, [t’s in execrable taste.”


12 posted on 02/04/2010 6:06:50 PM PST by 185JHP ( "The thing thou purposest shall come to pass: And over all thy ways the light shall shine.")
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To: 185JHP

Doncha just LOVE Bush 41’s way of thinking?


13 posted on 02/04/2010 6:07:44 PM PST by US Navy Vet
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To: Kaslin

Gates also announced he is withholding $614 million in fees from the prime contractor, Lockheed Martin.


Yeah—withholding $$ from the Contractor is a great way to motivate them to do better. [/s]


14 posted on 02/04/2010 6:13:28 PM PST by rbg81 (DRAIN THE SWAMP!!)
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To: Oldexpat

Gates decided the AF didn’t know what it was doing with the F-22 and had to be spanked. It will turn out that Gates is the one who doesn’t know what he’s doing. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. NEVER believe claims about the weapons system on the drawing board—until it flies, its vaporware.


15 posted on 02/04/2010 6:16:45 PM PST by rbg81 (DRAIN THE SWAMP!!)
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To: Kaslin
Looks who is running the Pentagon show. We have a SECDEF who fires everyone for not "taking responsibility", and he won't take responsibility for himself. He has proven to be a disaster, an "Obama Yes Man", and now pushes homosexuality on our military. We have a Chairmen of Joint Chiefs who is more concerned about "Diversity" than security of our nation. The same for the Army Chief of Staff after troops and civilians were maimed and murdered.

Robert Gates Unleashed: "What Are They Going To Do, Fire Me?"

Adm. Mullen: Repealing 'Don't ask, don't tell' is the 'right thing to do'

General Casey: diversity shouldn’t be casualty of Fort Hood

____________________________________________________________________

Dear God. Where is General Patton when you need him?

16 posted on 02/04/2010 6:22:09 PM PST by SkyPilot
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To: SkyPilot

This is what happens when you put Obama in charge...


17 posted on 02/04/2010 6:23:38 PM PST by Thunder90 (Fighting for truth and the American way... http://citizensfortruthandtheamericanway.blogspot.com/)
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To: Oldexpat

If we want a real SecDef, we first need to get a real President.


18 posted on 02/04/2010 6:28:22 PM PST by Redleg Duke
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The biggest culprit was Carlucci who decided in 1988 to stick it to the Navy which resulted in Webb resigning as SecNav and Cheney picked up where Carlucci left off.

NAVAIR put most of their eggs in the A-12 basket and did a lousy job of effectively pleading their case when that fiasco was canceled..

19 posted on 02/04/2010 6:37:08 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: randomhero97

Don’t worry, when we have a second rate military and full US rights for enemy combats, the thousands of civilian casualties will have free medical care!

This is like the satire administration.


20 posted on 02/04/2010 6:39:14 PM PST by When do we get liberated? (STATE CONTROLLED ECONOMIES SUCK ! LONG LIVE AMERICA.)
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To: randomhero97

Don’t worry, when we have a second rate military and full US rights for enemy combats, the thousands of civilian casualties will have free medical care!

This is like the satire administration.


21 posted on 02/04/2010 6:39:53 PM PST by When do we get liberated? (STATE CONTROLLED ECONOMIES SUCK ! LONG LIVE AMERICA.)
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To: Kaslin
The administration decision to scrap a proven aircraft in favor of a supposedly cheaper, more flexible replacement is proving to be an expensive mistake.

The "expensive mistake" was ("were" actually):

1.) Not building the F-22 with a weapons-bay large enough to handle 2000lb class weapons.

2.) Not building the F-22N NATF.
22 posted on 02/04/2010 6:46:50 PM PST by tanknetter
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C'mon google/images, lets go look at some warbird pr0n.
These people don't know what their doing.

;-)

23 posted on 02/04/2010 6:48:50 PM PST by Michael Barnes (Call me when the bullets start flying.)
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To: SkyPilot

Great links and pics.... you missed a few.... well, more than a few.... Patton would not survive in today’s military.... He was a “real” soldier.


24 posted on 02/04/2010 6:50:20 PM PST by Sleeping Freeper
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To: Kaslin

I'd settle for the F-22 Raptor. It's matured, already in production and has all-aspect stealth, supercruise, supermaneuverability and dogfighting capability.

The Raptor's program cost ~$65 billion. The Lightning II's program has cost ~$300 billion and overrunning.


25 posted on 02/04/2010 6:51:12 PM PST by myknowledge (F-22 Raptor: World's Largest Distributor of Sukhoi parts!)
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To: randomhero97

The Russians just unvieled a test version of their newest 5th generation fighter. It looks like a hacked-up F-22.

Regardless, the main point here is that a one size-fits-all approach (F-35) isn’t working...while proven, overwhelmingly dominating technology (F-22) is being effectively shelved for good.

All decided upon by a Harvard lawyer with zero engineering, military or foreign policy experience.

Heckuva job Barry!


26 posted on 02/04/2010 6:54:04 PM PST by mkboyce
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To: djwright
The original plan was to replace some 1500 F-15s with 750 F-22s and now we say 187 is all we need.

The original pre-QDR (Quadrennial Defense Review) plan envisioned a force of ~750 F-22 Raptors (A and C models of various blocks, plus proposed navalized Sea Raptors and a proposed FB-22 Strike Raptor variant to replace the F-15E Strike Eagle), to equip as many as 32 fighters squadrons with up to 24 jets per squadron.

27 posted on 02/04/2010 6:54:56 PM PST by myknowledge (F-22 Raptor: World's Largest Distributor of Sukhoi parts!)
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To: Kaslin

As predicted - it will be killed.


28 posted on 02/04/2010 7:04:42 PM PST by PIF
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To: Oldexpat

India has more fighters on order? And your point is we face some dire threat from India that we need to counter? otherwise, who cares?


29 posted on 02/04/2010 7:28:25 PM PST by Heliand
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To: SkyPilot; All

The public should demand that both Admiral Mullen and General Casey resign. It is not right that ADM Mullen can publically endorse a political policy while in uniform and the rank and file cannot express their views. General Casey’s political correctness is getting people killed.


30 posted on 02/04/2010 7:34:17 PM PST by Sola Veritas (Trying to speak truth - not always with the best grammar or spelling)
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To: Heliand
India has more fighters on order? And your point is we face some dire threat from India that we need to counter? otherwise, who cares?

People thought the same thing about Japan in the 20s and 30s.

31 posted on 02/04/2010 7:38:12 PM PST by hopespringseternal
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To: SkyPilot

Time for the colonels to take over.


32 posted on 02/04/2010 7:50:33 PM PST by Sequoyah101 (Half of the population is below average)
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To: AdmSmith; Berosus; bigheadfred; Convert from ECUSA; dervish; Ernest_at_the_Beach; Fred Nerks; ...
The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter that was supposed to be America's frontline fighter for the foreseeable future is in big trouble. Defense Secretary Robert Gates fired the general in charge of the program this week amid concerns of spiraling costs and program delays. Gates also announced he is withholding $614 million in fees from the prime contractor, Lockheed Martin. Daniel J. Crowley, one of Lockheed Martin's project managers, has acknowledged that the program is running at least six months behind schedule.
Number one, we need both; number two, we need drones, and lots of them, and lots of personnel to maintain and operate them; number three, we need to rid our country of traitors, because the first serious threat is obviously from within. Thanks Kaslin.
33 posted on 02/04/2010 8:09:54 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Happy New Year! Freedom is Priceless.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Agreed.


34 posted on 02/04/2010 8:29:52 PM PST by cranked
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To: randomhero97

Yep. UN resolutions on disarming America and tanking its fighter programs. The new consciousness of America is now ruling what our soldiers “really want” and need to fight against.

This is all horsecrap.

People kept criticizing the V22, but guess what. Marines are not ready to get rid of it now that they have it and needed it really bad for troop landing and fast takeoff safety reasons while getting in firefights.


35 posted on 02/04/2010 8:42:54 PM PST by JudgemAll (control freaks, their world & their problem with my gun and my protecting my private party)
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To: Heliand; Oldexpat
India has more fighters on order? And your point is we face some dire threat from India that we need to counter? otherwise, who cares?

No, the point is: India is going to end up with more new fighters than we will have; Russia's production lines are working, and they have a new design out that just flew.

The world did not stop when the F-22 came out; our enemies did not throw up their hands and say GAME OVER.

They're working on counters to our new planes. And they will keep their production lines open, and they will sell them to our enemies. The F-22 may be more capable for the time being, but its numbers have now been capped. And as capable as the Raptor is, they can get overwhelmed by numbers. That's a lesson Russia learned some time back. Don't think others didn't take notice.

36 posted on 02/04/2010 8:44:18 PM PST by AFreeBird
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To: SunkenCiv

Drones are good but they are ruled from the ground and without risks taken. This is a major drawback and source of expenses and waste and lack of battle calculated risks.

We need a “philosopher” in the cockpit to make life critical decision making and to rule the consciousness of the skies. Robots cannot do that. Flying pilots will always be needed for a real combined war fighting mindset. There are so many possible errors and communication issues and means, man’s eyes in the sky are part of it.


37 posted on 02/04/2010 8:46:30 PM PST by JudgemAll (control freaks, their world & their problem with my gun and my protecting my private party)
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To: Jet Jaguar

Pingaroo.


38 posted on 02/04/2010 9:12:13 PM PST by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: myknowledge
...plus proposed navalized Sea Raptors....

Just the name "Sea Raptor" sounds delightfully lethal.
39 posted on 02/04/2010 9:15:21 PM PST by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: Army Air Corps

If the U.S. Navy had them, just one or two Raptors with 16 GBU-39/40 SDBs can sink a whole enemy fleet of ships by dropping them in their smokestacks and fusing them to detonate at their keels.

40 posted on 02/04/2010 9:39:55 PM PST by myknowledge (F-22 Raptor: World's Largest Distributor of Sukhoi parts!)
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To: Kaslin

The F-35 Navy version is way over weight, over budget and way behind schedule. The F-22 may be the last fighter we ever build.


41 posted on 02/04/2010 10:08:51 PM PST by gibtx2 (keep up the good work I am out of work but post 20 a month to this out of WF Check)
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To: myknowledge

Thanks for that image.


42 posted on 02/04/2010 10:22:15 PM PST by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: Oldexpat

The problem isn’t Gates, it’s his boss.


43 posted on 02/04/2010 11:19:25 PM PST by Terpfen (FR is being Alinskied. Remember, you only take flak when you're over the target.)
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To: Kaslin
Okay. $16 billion in over-runs for more fighters compared to upteen TRILLION frigging dollars for who knows what? I can live with $16 billion.

I am now in Bizarro World. Forget that the main mandate of the Fedgov is to protect its citizens/nation.

44 posted on 02/04/2010 11:22:59 PM PST by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever)
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To: US Navy Vet
"There hasn’t been a Navy plane that has been worth a SH*T since the F-14 and A-6..." However, the F-22 had possibilities. These people are insane.

Agreed, from an old aviation sailor.

45 posted on 02/04/2010 11:26:08 PM PST by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever)
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To: US Navy Vet
"Tailhook 91 KILLED the F-14/A-6 community."

Really? I thought "Tailhook" just killed the inherent strength/comraderie of the aviation community through political correctness. Didn't realized or I forgot it affected a particular aircraft.

As and ex-aviation flight deck sailor I said, "Gawd too bad for the whiny little girls who wanted to be part of the boys club and got their asses swatted in some hallway just like the guys did." Too bad the little girls never got their wings pinned on to their chest (not breast). Then they would have known what it meant to be an Aviator.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know they can fly the aircraft. That was never the issue. It was about fitting in.

My first Navy experience with women first being placed on ships. My FF was tied up outside a supply ship (with female crew members) and I was standing in line for the launch to Diego Garcia when a sailor walked by a female sailor and simply said how pretty she was. He didn't stop to flirt, just made the comment and kept walking.

All hell broke out from some female Chief and the tender Master-At-Arms was notified and responded. The poor guy was pulled out of line (forcefully) and taken away. I never found out what happened to him, but we later heard he got a Captains Mast for harassment.

From that point on, I knew it to be the start of the "feminization" of my Navy. Now they are on combat ships. And what has resulted? When they don't want to deploy, they get female problems, or cry family problems, or worse intentionally get pregnant. And who picks up the slack in their divisions? Take a wild quess.

Women were never meant to serve with men on combat ships. We can thank old Patsy Schroeder for that one, and the weak Navy chain of command.

Now they want them on submarines? Let's stop and think about women being billeted on Tridents, our ultimate nuclear deterrent. The close proximity to each other; the distraction between the sexes which adds to sexual distraction; the flirting at the least; the low morale of Men of Honor who have the ultimate respossibility of NUKING a nation/region? As accomplished as the female Sailors could be, the distractions are a real possibility and not something you want on a machine that could destroy half the planet.

Yeah, okay, put females on attack subs, same problem to a lesser extent.

Women should hold down valuable stateside or tender jobs and not distract the men from their jobs. My position and it will always be. Not be cause I'm old school, because I've see problems.

Last point: Gays in the Militay. I stand by DADT! Even after all my years I've been gone from the Militiary, I quarantee that won't work in the confines of a Navy ship.
It might work in the barracks of the Army or AirForce, but Sailors and Marines live and even share bunks and it just won't work. Of course, we're told all the time that the new ships have female quarters. Do our Admirals and Generals, lower Captains/Coronels really believe the teenage boys and girls are not going to connect?

Is our chain of command so clueless or do they just don't care anymore due to political correctness? Either way, they are heading down a road that will negatively affect their operation capabilities.

Glad I left the Navy after 11 years. Wanted to do at least 20, but I saw the writing on the wall and took a better opportunity when I saw it. To bad. I would have been so proud to retired as Chief Petty Officer (E-7) or higher.

46 posted on 02/05/2010 12:34:50 AM PST by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever)
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To: JudgemAll

Not to mention that the craft it was replacing, the CH-46, was MORE dangerous than even the pre-fix Osprey.

At least when the engines quit, the Osprey can either autorotate or glide to a landing. The CH-46 mostly just falls out of the sky.


47 posted on 02/05/2010 1:17:36 AM PST by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: A Navy Vet

A agree totally!


48 posted on 02/05/2010 6:00:41 AM PST by US Navy Vet
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To: taildragger
Some say the YF-23 was better than the YF-22. Might even be better than the F-18E/F.


49 posted on 02/05/2010 8:03:21 AM PST by GBA
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To: SkyPilot

(s)General Patton was sent to Obamacare reeducation sensitivity camp (/s)


50 posted on 02/05/2010 9:34:44 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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