Losing Our Religion (Christianity will be history if we cut ourselves off from our roots)

Even with its centuries-old roots throughout the continent, is Christianity history in the West?

In a speech at the Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C., the visiting archbishop of Vienna, Christoph Cardinal Schönborn, warned that “trends questioning the Christian foundation of Europe, and aggressively opposing it, are becoming stronger in several countries and in the European political arena in general.”

He explained that “Christianity is for many a foreign element in a world determined by reason, Enlightenment and democratic principles.” He contends that “this Europe, and the Western world as a whole, will not survive without the foreignness Christianity brings. In other words: Europe can only play its role in the concert of world cultures when it retains Christianity, this foreign body, as a part of its identity.”

Almost simultaneously across the pond, the British seemed to get the message, putting aside negotiations that would have placed unprecedented restrictions on religious freedom in the name of a faux freedom. Mandates proposed by the so-called “equality bill” would have removed existing exemptions for religious organizations regarding whom they can employ and to whom they must provide services. Catholic officials in Britain believed that the legislation would force them to ordain women to the priesthood — both an untenable position for the Church and one that the government certainly had no business forcing them into.

The bill was referred to as “an existential threat” to Christian churches in Europe. Sir Jonathan Sacks, the chief rabbi in England, said: “When Christians, Jews, and others feel that the ideology of human rights is threatening their freedoms of association and religious practice, a tension is set in motion that is not healthy for society, freedom, or Britain.”

Britain appears to have put a stop to this — for now. It probably helped that lawmakers were shepherded by the pope himself: During a gathering of bishops from England and Wales in Rome, Pope Benedict XVI heralded Britain’s “firm commitment to equality of opportunity for all members of society.” But he had critical words for the pending legislation. “The effect of some of the legislation designed to achieve this goal has been to impose unjust limitations on the freedom of religious communities to act in accordance with their beliefs,” he said. “In some respects it actually violates the natural law upon which the equality of all human beings is grounded and by which it is guaranteed.”

Demonstrating his familiarity with the tyranny of not-so-tolerant tolerance, the Holy Father proclaims that “fidelity to the Gospel in no way restricts the freedom of others — on the contrary, it serves their freedom by offering them the truth.” He reminded the bishops there that their participation in the debate is in the best “traditions” of Britain — “freedom of expression and honest exchange of opinion” while “giving voice to the convictions of many people who lack the means to express them: when so many of the population claim to be Christian, how could anyone dispute the Gospel’s right to be heard?”

The attitudes expressed in the bill are not foreign to us here in America. Pres. Barack Obama’s nominee for the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, a Georgetown University professor named Chai Feldblum, wrote in 2006 that “just as we do not tolerate private racial beliefs that adversely affect African-Americans in the commercial arena, even if such beliefs are based on religious views, we should similarly not tolerate private beliefs about sexual orientation and gender identity that adversely affect LGBT [lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender] people.” Feldblum believes that there is a “zero-sum game” being played between religious freedom and the homosexual activists, in which “a gain for one side necessarily entails a corresponding loss for the other side.” Religious liberty, in Feldblum’s estimation, must give.

This conversation about religious liberty, homosexuality, and rights will be a prominent one this term as the U.S. Supreme Court takes up Christian Legal Society v. Martinez, in which it will decide whether religious groups on college campuses must be open to members and leaders who do not share their beliefs. The Court will decide, in other words, whether we’re still free to associate or not.

Religious liberty and LGBT activists simply shouldn’t be at odds. Christian churches don’t seek to eliminate LGBT groups, and LGBT groups needn’t threaten the existence of religious congregations that can’t in their moral consciences do as that British equality law — and some laws we’ve seen proposed in the United States (and even passed by the U.S. Senate!) — would have them do.

As David French, a lawyer for the Alliance Defense Fund, which specializes in religious-liberty litigation, recently put it: “If your idea of law is that it is an instrument of domination and exclusion, then, yes, legal disputes between ideological opposites are ‘zero-sum games.’ But if your idea of the Constitution is that it protects the fundamental liberties of all citizens (which happens to be the way the document is written), then — quite literally — everyone wins when those liberties are vindicated.”

Christianity will be history if we cut ourselves off from our roots — moral, yes, but legal, ethical, and political, too. And while more of us need to have a heightened awareness that this threat exists throughout the West — mercifully, it’s not only a pope and a cardinal and even a rabbi who get that.

— Kathryn Jean Lopez is editor-at-large of National Review Online. She can be contacted at klopez@nationalreview.com.

You were saying ...

Exactly...and when that Wall came crashing down a WHOLE lot of people in Eastern Europe were given the freedom again to adhere to and put that Word of God into practice BECAUSE of the West's efforts.

It's been shown before, in history, that "Christianity" thrives under persecution. So, when it's "free" (in the manner you're saying) it seems to get weak and flacid. So, that might not be such a good deal after all... :-)

I mean, I'm for religious freedom, as I would hate to have to exist in a repressive state in which anyone who is known to be a Christian would be persecuted and made to be a second-rate citizen or killed outright (as happens now in many places). And I also wouldn't want to made it a "prescription" for the success of Christianity -- to "persecute Christians" so Christianity can succeed much bettter (as it seems to do).

But, having said that ... freedom of religion hasn't done too much good for Christianity, except bring in a lot of non-Christian cult groups and more ways to deceive people and more evil practices in religious circles.

And to put it in yet another way... when Jesus, the Messiah of Israel takes control over the world, and install His one-world government -- there will be no freedom of religion allowed.

You will not have any of the cult groups, the witchcraft, the evil practices and so on. There will be only one faith and one belief and only one to choose from, or else you die -- and that's it.

So, freedom of religion is not all it's cracked up to be... :-)

I don't think you get how "freedom movements" as you put it and "the West" are integral to promoting the very Word you venerate...and how its enemies are opposed to the Word spreading. You really shouldn't lessen the importance of the people in politics God raises up to promote His freedom in the world and in so doing allows the Word to be taught freely.

As I was saying, Christianity has thrived very well under severe persecution and is refreshed that way. Under "freedom" it wanes and eventually dies in those cultures and evil takes over.... unfortunately... that's the way it's been over the centuries, from what I've read from Christian authors and from what we see in repressive countries right now.

You were saying ...

Ugh. Another naysayer of the 1st amendment.

You'll notice that I was talking about Christianity and how it has thrived under persecution and how it has grown weak and flacid under freedom of religion, and that has happened many times. That says nothing about the 1st Amendment.

But, if I were to say something about it, which is this....

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I would say that Christianity, itself is being done no service by freedom of religion, as that's been used against it many times, including the wording "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" -- to remove even the speaking of Christianity in government to be illegal.

That's doing Christianity no favors at all. There's nothing good about that, in terms of Christianity.

In addition to that, other religions have used it as a "hammer" on Christianity, to either get it removed from some venue -- or -- to get themselves installed in the same venue, if Christianity is there. Again, that's no favor for Christianity.

And going further, the so-called "Religion of Peace" is actually no religion at all, but is really a "governmental idealogy" which is masquereding as a religion, in order to become established enough to overthrow the government of the United States and install their own government (not "religion" and not "freedom of religion" either).

And with them, that is Islam, that should be made illegal and totally removed from this country, because it's a governmental idealogy designed specifically for the overthrow of governments around the world and establishing themselves as the governing authority and outlawing others.

So, we "allow" them in here long enough until they can overthrow us, and then we're outlawed... in the process... LOL... that's what they'll do... :-)

Sorry, in terms of Christianity and what "favor" it is to it -- from "freedom of religion" -- it hasn't been getting too much in the way of "favors" there lately and it's going to get worse -- under the "name" of freedom of religion.

This is the kind of thing you will read about, countless times, in Christian circles and Christian books and in regards to Christianity in history. It's repeated over and over again... this is just one sample... that's all...

Laotian Christians Thrive Under Persecution

Communist drive to stamp out Christianity in Laos is having an opposite effect.

By Baptist Press Staff in Laos | posted 10/01/2000 12:00AM

New converts to Christianity in Laos, the communist neighbor of Vietnam and Cambodia, are pressured to sign a fill-in-the-blank form.The form reads in part: "I, (name), who live ... in (location), believe in a foreign religion, which the imperialists have used for their own benefit to divide the united front and to build power for themselves against the local authorities. Now, I and my family clearly see the intentions of the enemy, and regret the deeds which we have committed. We have clearly seen the goodness of the Party and the Government.

"Therefore, I and my family ... voluntarily and unequivocally resign from believing in this foreign religion."

If you sign, you also promise not to participate in this "foreign religion"—Christianity in every reported case—or any of its meetings and ceremonies. You also agree that if the authorities should catch you continuing to practice your faith, you must "accept that the government shall do to me whatever is required by its laws."

Those who refuse to sign can expect humiliation, harassment, and persecution, including probable imprisonment. Some Christians who refuse to sign have been placed in wooden stocks.

The document's widespread, ongoing use by provincial and local Laotian officials has been authenticated by the World Evangelical Fellowship's Religious Liberty Commission and other sources. Hundreds of rural Christians reportedly have been forced to sign the form in public, then compelled to participate in animistic sacrifices.

The constitution of Laos, ratified in 1991, guarantees "the right and freedom to believe or not believe in religions." But many evangelical Christians, who have been persecuted with increasing intensity as they have grown in number, report cases of abuse and retribution for their worship of Christ. The state continues to outlaw evangelism, religious training, and church-planting, despite the constitution's free belief clause.

You were saying ...

Our country has thrived for 200 years under our Constitution, which is one of the best legislative safeguards of freedom there has ever been.

The government has worked well, for this length of time for what the founders set up, and that's good for you and me and all the others who came before us. It's not been perfect and things are progressively getting worse, but that's more because of the people (in this nation today) rather than the form of government.

The laws that the people put into place, the changes they make to the government and the officials they put into office will be no better than what the people choose and if the people choose differently than they have for the last couple of hundred years, thing will be worse, regardless of the type or form of government you have. The people will simply change it from what it once was, which is what seems to be happening now, in the laws, with the regulations, with the courts, with the elected officials, with the Congress, with the Presidency -- and you name it.

So, while it was good, it was as good as the people who were involved in it..., and we can see which direction it's been going over the last many deades.

These freedoms, of course, include the Christian Church which has done wonders during that time to promote freedoms beyond our borders around the world. This has involved not only spreading religious freedoms, but also following Jesus' command to provide material comforts for those who are needy.

It doesn't help to confuse the United States, with Christianity -- or to think that the U.S. is the highest form of government that one can have for Christianity or that Christianity would normally and naturally produce this form of government.

Christianity is separate from the government, this one or any government, and is not to be considered part and parcel of any government. Christianity should have influence over the people and the people should have influence over the government, but Christianity is not the government.

Christianity is about fundamentally and primarily about the Salvation that comes from the saving faith in Jesus, the Messiah of Israel. And it's fundamentally and primarily about spreading that Gospel message of this salvation, per the Scriptures, in regard to Jesus, the Messiah of Israel.

It's not about creating a Christian government, because you're never going to have that by human hands. God makes that clear.

In His word, the only government which is going to be perfect is the one which is going to be established by the Messiah of Israel, when He comes back to this earth to defeat the one-world government that is forming now. And He puts in its place His own one-world government. And this government won't have the laws or the freedoms that we take for granted in the United States.

It will be a monarchy, a king-ship reign, over all the nations, and as the Bible says, a rule as with a rod of iron, with justice being strict and quick, according to His word.

That's the perfect government that we'll have in the soon-to-come future, and it will be by His hands and not ours.

And, furthermore the job of Christianity is not to spread freedoms around the world and in other countries -- but rather -- the job of Christianity is to spread the very specific and narrow "Gospel Message of Salvation" by means of accepting Jesus, the Messiah of Israel as the only way and the only Savior that one can have and the only way to eternal life -- all other ways, no matter what they are simply leading to the lake of fire and eternal damnation.

That's the job of Christianity, until Jesus, the Messiah of Israel returns. Anything else that Christianity does, is always secondary and is not the prime goal of what it should do in the world. There are other things that Christianity does, but they are never to take the primary position of importance -- over the Gospel of Salvation and getting that to all the people in the world. That's always the first and prime goal of Christianity.

And in no case is it the goal of Christianity to spred freedom, as Christianity has no ability to do so. It con only offer salvation and eternal life to the individual and not determine or order the way governments operate. Only Jesus, the Messiah of Israel has that task -- and He will do it, Himself, when He returns and goes to war against all his enemies and destroys them upon His return. He's the one who will institute His government -- not Christians or Christianity, in our day or this time.

Without the Church in America we would not have been able to defeat the socialistic nightmares of Nazi Germany and Bolshevik Russia.

What God desires is for those forces of freedom to continue, not diminish.

You might say that without Christians who lived in this country that this country could not have done that. And that's understandable. But, it's the people who are Christians (and even then, not all of them were, but there was a mainstream culture, or a memory of a culture, which held to certain Christian values, whether every person was a Christian or not). But, these "values" are rapidly being forgotten, because people are abandoning Christianity (in this country) and abandoning God (and as a culture, rather than every last single individual).

But, I wouldn't equate this country with Christianity, because this country is far from it and it was far from it, even back then -- even though there were mainstream values that existed in our culture which had their bedrock in Christian values. It was and has been part of the "memory" of the culture we live in, even though the culture is rapidly abandoning it.

As for what God desires, He only desires that all be saved, from the Salvation that He offers, in His Son, in that He died on the cross and was buried and raised from the dead, and all that believe in Him for their personal salvation -- will be saved -- on that basis, alone. That's what God desires.

He also desires, as has been His plan from the beginning, to bring mankind back to the way things were at the Garden of Eden, without evil in the world, without sin and without Satan being here any longer. And that's what He is working towards, right now -- along with bringing a "people" that He has called out from among the nations, to be His own, to live in that "new world" that He will re-establish here on this earth, without sin, without evil, without Satan, without any of the ills that have come about, from the time of the Garden of Eden. That's what God desires and what He is working towards (as that's not what we can do anything about, becuase that's all in God's hands alone).

The only part we have in this is to accept the salvation that He offers, through His Son, and put our trust in Jesus carrying through on the salvation that He promises. You do that, you put your trust in Him and that God will do as He says He will, given the sacrifice of Jesus, the Messiah of Israel -- you will be saved, on that basis alone. That's what God desires.

The U.S. is not in the plan of God, as we see written in the Bible. Israel is, and other nations are, but not the U.S. It's not mentioned by location, by race, by people, by description or by any methodology in the Bible (although people do try and strain at a gnat to put the U.S. in the Bible in some way... LOL...).

God has no other purpose for the U.S. other than to bring about the things that will happen with Israel in the end days, and that's probably all that the U.S. is good for.

God is not trying to spread freedom in this world, as it's an evil place and it's is destined to be totally and utterly destroyed -- the world will not be saved, although individuals in the world will be saved.

It's the coming of the Messiah of Israel, in which He destroys all the mechanisms and philosophies and governments and religions -- that will establish true freedom. This is the freedom that God will bring, when the Messiah of Israel returns to earth to set up this freedom, by His own hand.

Despite you believing that a diminishment of freedom is preferable--this freedom in the US, if God grants a continuance, will continue to extend freedoms to other countries which are not blessed with it. This will include using, as it always has, political and military tools.

I made the point in the above post, if you read them, that I didn't prefer persecution. But, I also pointed out that these freedoms that you mention have not been for the benefit of Christianity, in that they have made many Christians weak and flacid and of no good use.

On the other hand, I've also pointed out that the church has thrived under persecution, but me (as with anyone else) we would not relish the idea of being persecuted -- but at the same time, Jesus tells us that we will be persecuted. Some are persecuted more than others, though -- it seems, in this world. The U.S. Christians can barely refer to being persecuted, although the screws are being put to the U.S. Christians, nonetheless.

And with all the political and military tools that the U.S. has, it will never create a world full of freedom or even get close to that. It will never happen and the Word of God makes that clear. Maybe 100 or so years ago, many thought that this was happening in the world, that we were getting smarter and better all the time and that we would reach the utopia fairly soon -- but you don't find that much any more... :-)

If we look around the world, to Europe to the Middle East, to Russia, to China and to South America -- it doesn't look like "freedom" is doing too well and it's not likely to do well in the coming years. We're headed towards that evil one-world government that the Bible tells us about and that God says He will judge and destroy utterly, as the Messiah of Israel comes back to earth to go to war against those people and those nations who fight on behalf of this one-world government.

He sets up His own one-world government and does away with every other government in the world, including the U.S.'s government and establishes one with Him as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, over all the nations of the world (and we're talking about the nations that you're looking at today... those very same nations and many of the same people you see alive and breathing today).

No amount of military and/or political tools that the U.S. has, will ever bring that kind of freedom to the world.

I sure hope the number of people like you who believe freedom to be less than desirable does not continue to grow. I appreciate the Christians in politics like Sarah Palin who believe fervently that God's way is to fight against the forces which would diminish freedom and to promote what has always been the clarion call of the USA.

The clarion call for freedom to the world -- is solely and only through Jesus, the Messiah of Israel setting up His one-world government and ruling over all the nations of the world, as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. That's the only true clarion call that the Christian has.

Other than that, as obedient citizens (in any country) Christians should live peaceably and within the laws of the country, participate where they can and be at peace with whomever will allow them to be at peace with others.

Outside of that, the Christians primary responsibility per the Bible is to spread the Gospel of the Salvation that is offered through the free gift from Jesus, the Messiah of Israel, for all who will put their trust in Him, to do as He says He will and for their eternal life, with Him.

You were saying ...

Am cocerned and fear the 'power' inherent in these demographics - the hand that rocks the cradle, rules the world - and we have fewer hands and cradles.

Absolutely yes, and that's another indicator for me, that the timing is right for these things to happen to Israel that the Bible says will happen -- especially because of these demographics. See the following from another post of mine...

That evil and oppressive governmental idealogy of Islam and the way of implementing it by Sharia law is already making inroads right here in this country — the good ole USA. We’re about to see a “takeover” of the U.S. by the evil and oppressive idealogy of the government of Islam (that is aiming for world-wide conquest and has stated that the U.S. is *on its list* to take over...)

And for those people who need some additional facts about what the evil and oppressive governmental idealogy of Islam is doing, look at some of the following.

There’s no question about it... the enemy is *Islam* itself and the evil and oppressive and false idealogy that it perpetrates. Some say the problem is “fascism” (instead of the basic oppressive governmental idealogy of Islam, itself). But, that is to engage in “political correctness” and nothing more... and sidetracks people from the *true enemy* in this war.

In one generation we’ll see, right here in the United States that “Islam” is the enemy and not “fascism”...

Muslim Demographics...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

and also, this...

Islam: What the West Needs to Know - FULL LENGTH ENGLISH VERSION
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-871902797772997781

and then, looking at this...

“The Third Jihad” (video - abridged version of film)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2271522/posts

This is the allowance of “false gods” to take over this nation because of the ignorance of the people of the land in regards to the true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...

And so, we see that we’re going to have the “false god of Islam” ruling over the USA and running the USA in just one generation from now.

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