Posted on 02/08/2010 10:21:02 PM PST by neverdem
Researchers are warning that popular herbs and supplements, including St. John’s wort and even garlic and ginger, do not mix well with common heart drugs and can also be dangerous for patients taking statins, blood thinners and blood pressure medications.
St. John’s wort raises blood pressure and heart rate, and garlic and ginger increase the risk of bleeding in patients on blood thinners, the researchers said. Even grapefruit juice can be risky, increasing the effects of calcium-channel blockers and statins, they said.
“This is not new research, but there is a trend toward more and more use of these compounds, and patients often don’t discuss with their doctors the compounds they are using on their own,” said Dr. Arshad Jahangir, senior author of a paper being published in Tuesday’s issue of The Journal of the American College of Cardiology.
The paper includes a list of more than two dozen herbal products that patients should approach with caution, as well as a list of common drug-herb interactions. Among the products listed are ginkgo biloba, ginseng and echinacea, as well as some surprises like soy milk and green tea — both of which can decrease the effectiveness of warfarin — and even aloe vera and licorice...
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
No kidding. I am a big pro-herb guy but I do my research beforehand.
When garlic, ginger and grapefruit juice are listed as contraindicated that’s a pretty clear picture of how dangerous and unpredictable the pharmaceutical in question is.
STOP LIVING, EVERYONE. NOW!!!!!!!
With Medicare cuts on the horizon seniors will turn more and more to these remedies.
The length of medicines that you shouldn't take with any citrus-based drink, but especially grapefruit juice are fairly numerous. Generally speaking, people don't pay enough attention to the warning labels on both prescription and OTC medications. And, guys like John Edwards live in really big houses because of it.
Who says tort reform isn’t needed in the current health care debate?
Wait... I guess it would be the Demorats.
“The paper includes a list of more than two dozen herbal products that patients should approach with caution...”
I wonder if the paper considered publishing a list of pharmaceutical combinations that Heath Ledger and Britany Murphy should have approached with caution.
I’m not paying $15.00 for this article.....
To be clear about my original statement it wasn't a criticism of these drugs but rather an observation. None of those herbs are particularly dangerous in and of themselves.
“...which can decrease the effectiveness of warfarin”
Warfarin is rat poison. So, if I had a choice, I would NOT be taking the rat poison and then not worry about all the herbs and good food that aren’t so dangerous.
I no longer take Simvastatin, for over a year.
I need to read/absorb this.
thanks for article.
Yes, this is all true. Once you start on Coumadin (a “thinner”), you become painted into a rather tiny corner. Especially if you want to keep everything stabilized. Coumadin can be lifesaving, and it is important to obsessively track towards the center of the INR (clotting range) that your physician specifies. If you track that center line, all is well. However, there are goblins at every turn. Add a statin (Crestor), and you can potentiate the effect of the Coumadin, thus shooting right out of the top of your range. I had this happen once, when the Coumadin clinic wasn’t paying attention. No immediate harm was done, but it showed that ANY medication that is added to the mix has the potential to bump the INR too high, or too low.
Foods are a big problem as well. Too much fish, and you can cause your INR to go out the bottom of your range. Clots are a bad thing. Too much licorice (an odd gotcha’) and it goes the other way. And the strangest thing of all is cranberries. I am told by my clinic that, “Cranberries are death! You will bleed out.”. Well, ......OK! I’ll warn my relatives at Thanksgiving and Christmas, or pack a lunch. There are books on the peculiarities of Coumadin and how food or medications can modify what it does.
If your LDL/TG and Total Cholesterol is low in the first place, you can do surprising things just by going vegan (albeit unwillingly on my part) along with your statin and fibric acid. Fortunately there is an easy diet to fall back on. A vegan-mediterranean regimen is ideal for my particular mix of drugs and dietary needs. You can actually live on it, and enjoy it at the same time. There are plenty of books at the library on this. You even start looking like you did in high school after awhile. It’s true!
While some think I’ve become something of a food/drug/lifestyle Nazi, the threat of imminent death does tend to motivate me in ways as never before. While my problem was caught early, it has to be taken quite seriously. It’s best to do what you’re told by the docs. There’s plenty of stuff available that wasn’t there even 10 years ago. A strict diet, exercise schedule and drug regimen can often keep you from getting stents, or grafting later on. I’d be happy with that.
“So, if I had a choice, I would NOT be taking the rat poison”
Sigh... But sometimes we do not have that choice. You either take the “rat poison”, or you will have a good chance of dying.
Let’s see, rat poison, death, rat poison, death. Eventually the choice becomes clear.
ping
That sounds like a triumph for you. If you can bring your condition down to a level where you don’t need these strong drugs then there must be a definite improvement.
I don't think that this is a case of either the pharmaceuticals or the herbs being "dangerous" in and of themselves. But, the interaction between some particular drugs and these herbs or other naturally occurring foodstuffs, can have some adverse effects - some of which might even be deadly.
I don't know what the INR is or why licorice would effect that but it is well known that licorice will increase blood pressure due to increased sodium retention. This refers to real licorice root (Glycrrhiza glabra) not necessarily licorice candy which is usually flavored with anise seeds instead of licorice root.
LOL - not "cranberries are amazingly effecive in lowering blood pressure," but rather, "cranberries are death because they're so effective, they make the prescription rat poison you're taking too powerful when combined with them - so, avoid the cranberries."
Can't make this sh!t up.
It is definitely the case that these drugs are dangerous. When taking Coumadin all herbs are contraindicated. As Habibi’s post #14 testifies to even many common foods are contraindicated. That was my original point. The article speaks of herbal medicines but lists some, that I referred to, which are themselves common foods. That says more about the drugs than it does about the herbs. Anyone taking them needs to be very cautious, informed and disciplined.
“they make the prescription rat poison you’re taking too powerful when combined with them - so, avoid the cranberries.”
And is so doing, I avoid death for awhile longer. It is a worthy endeavor.
Few patients are prescribed cranberries for PFO’s, and strokes tend to kick the crap out the brain. Coumadin therapy, is merely an annoyance by comparison.
I certainly agree with that.
I agree. too tired to write much but I think we are an over medicated people. Instead of stopping ginger, cranberries & garlic to NOT interfere with meds, how about stopping the meds & just do the naturals?
I did it with my mom when she was given 6 months to live. cold turkey. NO MORE MEDS. that was 18 years ago. She is vibrant, no pain & healthy with a sharp mind at 91.
she has occasional aspirin and allergy meds. that is it!
good luck with your journey!
What about Horny Goat Weed and/or Maca-do they have any related problems?
From the point of view of an herbalist and a physician (not me) the recommendation re herbs for someone on Coumadin is "none at all." The article could have simply said that.
From my POV, as just an herbalist, the conditions that reasonably call for any of these drugs is such an advanced pathology that there really aren't any herbal remedies that could be used in place of them or even used with them if it could be ascertained that it was safe.
Some of these conditions could have been managed with herbs, in combination with lifestyle changes, before they reached that point. Unfortunately a lot of people don't even realize they need to do something until things get to too serious of a level for herbs, diet and exercise alone.
See post #26 for a trained herbalists opinion on that. :-)
A swollen and sore prostate with Horny Goat Weed. lol
Maca is pretty cool stuff. Not so much a specific aphrodisiac as a general energizer. More of a nutrient than a medicine. But don't take it with any of these medicines.
There's more than one way to skin a cat.
Get the title of the original article, i.e. Use of Herbal Products and Potential Interactions in Patients with Cardiovascular Diseases.
Enclose it within quotation marks, and search for it online. This site claims that the following herbs are the most common.
Sometimes you find the original article on an author's webpage. Don't forget the quotation marks.
Dolly,
It is very nice of you to offer such encouragement. Especially with what can only be called a success story re. your mother. One never has guarantees in this life, but the advancement of medical science and real research resources on the Internet provide life saving information that was just not available previously.
I do not feel terribly endangered, or underinformed since I tend to hideously over-research most important matters. Couple this with a “Cabal” of medicos at my church providing inside info on the local medical establishment and associated assets, and I feel like I have advantages over normal patients. As another contributor mentioned, one needs to be informed and disciplined to make some of these things work. My previous profession molded me in that direction so a bit of constructive cynicism thrown into the mix is advantageous as well.
Having all of this under my belt, it is fun to debate with the cardiologists during my appointments. I have them trained now, so they only blow through my alloted time by 15 minutes or so. They do enjoy the results of my ongoing literature search, as I tend to fit into a rather narrow pool of patients.
Nine months ago a six month estimate would have sounded pretty good to me. Now, the docs are starting to talk to me like a person vs. a statistic once again. They no longer act as if they’re holding their breath. Now that they’ve come off of being Darwinian towards me, I’m starting to breath a little easier as well. ;-)
“As an herbalist”
Really? That’s interesting, even more so if you’re a professional in the area. Herbalism is a fascinating study, and it truly is a living science in China to this day. I’m not really interested in this for myself because, as you say, the condition goes well beyond what herbs can do. I’d be more concerned about herbs could do to me. And I quite agree that some conditions do not lend themselves to herbal treatments. As in my case, sometimes a “hammer” is necessary. If one knows how a hammer works, how it can be used, and how it should not be used, it becomes a matter of intelligently managing risk. As in operating high performance aircraft, there is the potential for getting hurt if you don’t know what you’re doing. Conversely, using that resource in an educated and cautious fashion can be quite beneficial with only slight risk. As I’m sure you already agree, you just need to know what you’re about.
Ditto that. I learned the hard way, from my wife, about that grapefruit-high BP medicine contra-indication thing.
Thanks. I’ll give that a try. I have at times, or still do, use some of these herbals.
After retrieving the article successfully, I see that OLEANDER is listed. Oleander is a fatal poison. I seriously wonder if that can be purchased as a supplement.
I readily agree with that. As Dirty Harry said "A man's got to know his limitations." ;-)
I went to a school directed by one of the best herbalists in western herbalism in the country. It was a broad based education that put the student in a position to take it in several directions. Many have become clinical herbalists, others opened herb stores (which is probably the best way to be a clinical herbalist) and some went into manufacturing while still others went on to careers in medicine. One gal I went to school with planned on becoming an RNN from the outset.
I'm more of the outdoors type and tried to make a living wildcrafting (collecting and processing wild medicinal plants) but I got a bit burned out with the lousy business ethics of the people I tried to work with. Too many fraking liberals. I had fewer problems with cheats and liars when I was in construction doing carpentry and contracting. Maybe that was just my luck because there are some great people in the field. I just had have a change.
Sooooo, I don't make a living at it but I am willing to help people that ask and I have a ton of herbs of all kinds. Mostly wild plants from the American west.
I'm rusty now but ten years ago I could step out of my truck anywhere in the western states and do at least an hour's herb walk off the top of my head. Having grown up fishing, hunting and camping it added a whole new dimension to the outdoors for me. In fact it changed my whole view of the southwestern deserts. I have always loved the mountains but didn't care too much for the desert. Now the desert is endlessly fascinating and beautiful to me. There is much more diversity of plant life there and some of the most unique plants in terms of phytopharmacology grow there.
As far as herbal medicine itself goes I think Traditional Chinese Medicine is the most advanced and the diagnostic protocols are the best. But they go well beyond herbs in therapeutic mediums. However it is said in herbal circles that one can learn a handful of local plants for their own uses and become effective with them for most things that herbs can do. I think that is basically true. Add a few "special" herbs that do things few other herbs can and you have a pretty effective medical kit.
Going back to the limitations of herbs; my teacher described botanical medicine as generally being most useful for sub-clinical pathologies. In layman's terms that means those chronic problems that physicians don't do well or don't even recognize as treatable by standard practice medicine.
compounds? garlic??
seriously, sounds like the problem isn’t with the natural “compounds” but the “medicines”
someone should raise the bar back to normal instead of allowing substandard junk onto the market
It’s not substandard junk. It’s last chance measures for extreme pathologies. A lot of the problem is with the people not the healers. We have come to think that we can do anything we want to do and when things go wrong the doctor will fix it.
If that's the original JACC article, why don't you link it?
In other words, bow down to western medicine and put your faith in man.
TigersEye, I generally distrust "alternative" medicine peddlers, but I've met some practitioners who were indeed gifted. I went to a chiropractor for awhile and his treatments restored my left hand, which had become numb after I strained my upper back. I finally went to him after two weeks of physical therapy failed to improve the condition.
Besides an obvious,somewhat mysterious, tactile sensitivity, what set him apart was his understanding of the limitations of his art-- if he found something wrong, he wouldn't hesitate to send you to an MD. He didn't peddle vitamins, as many do. He had a gift, but more important, he knew what he didn't know.
You show that same humility, which is the root of wisdom. It's a shame you're not practicing full time. Do you have a website? Ever considered that?
Well God bless & PTL on your success story so far. Hoping you have continued good results. I am sure you are more of a researcher than I am. I do some ... but follow my gut & listen to my body mostly.
I have many docs in my family but more chiropractors. The are all a little leery of “natural”. Early in life we learned about natural things. (I had to hide aspirin from my parents like it was heroin) LOL. And all good things can be bad to excess. Knowing what “to excess” is, well, pretty important. The line is often fine between helping & killing!
A good friend locally re-inspired me to learn more when I returned to Ohio to caregive mom. She was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer in all of her body with months to live. The docs were furious when she rejected the recommended chemo & radiation. She went on the healing macrobiotic diet. Went to Massachusetts & learned at the feet of the master.. Kushi.
She now 14 years later is a nurse/consultant to the cancer & oncology docs at the major medical centers in NE Ohio. Name is Janet Vitt . She lectures & prepares meals for sale macrobiotic regular. I loved them but the expense was beyond my budget.
The docs were is disbelief at first but now are believers.
The diet has its appeal to me (except I am a cheese a holic). Been a vegetarian for 30 years. I know it would help my allergies. I was on it for several months & felt so much better but “fell away” more or less to the temptation of things I love but were forbidden (cheese & nightshades)
a couple years ago FReeper Gretchen & I were in process of starting an ongoing thread on natural healing & conflicts with meds, etc. Her sudden/ unexpected death due to a long time condition from childhood ended it. Elections were hot, I was overwhelmed with things so it never took off. I am still interested in finding a core of people maybe 5 to do this. All contribute research, open discussion, not slamming the AMA but awareness of the pharmaceuticals & the alternate options available along with risks
I have for many years volunteered as a facilitator with a prostate cancer support group. The ones who go natural live longer & feel better. without exception. Once the radiation & chemo destroy the immune system, well, not a good scene.
Have you done much with yoga? I think for most people with cardiology concerns it can offer some good things. The stretching, breathing, mental conditioning. An assest not a cure
okay, my dogs are looking at me with crossed legs.. need to take them out!
ping
Because as we all know, in a post-apocalyptic world, rat poison can be used in place of blood thinners, in the correct dose.
If they tell you not to take grapefruit juice with your medication, all it tells you about the medicine is that it is metabolized in the liver by the same CYP enzyme that grapefruit juice inhibits.
This in no way reflects the overall toxicity, unpredictability, or danger of taking the drug.
Good for you! I have had the same path. Now I love the desert, and can't get enough. I think the austeriy of the deserts make it that much more beautiful.
Wouldn't this sub for all the meds? Just asking.
Yoga?
It is interesting that you mentioned that. While I’m unable to “pretzel” myself due to adhesive arachnoiditis (another strange story). My neurologist tells me that with a PFO I must not, under any circumstances, create a valsalva. As you know, Yoga encourages many disciplines and one of these is controlled breathing. Though I’m better protected against thromboembolism now (somewhat), running the system without an effective filter (lungs) rather invites disaster when developing unnecessary intrathoracic pressure. One clot across that breached septum, and one can go from somewhat compromised to ......worse. ;-) It happened once, lightly, but such events tend to get ones attention.
So you see, there are elements of Yoga that have an immediately demonstrable physiological benefit. Nice how it’s a gimme’. It’s easier to believe in its efficacy. I don’t know who that “master” is/was that you mentioned. If he/she is still about it might be fun to trade recipes.
“Wouldn’t this sub for all the meds? Just asking.”
Indeed it might. But some of us are not normal. In my case a PFO lead to neurovascular mischief. What threw the docs was that I was one of those not so rare individuals with low blood lipids that has a tendency towards fragile plaque with that complicating PFO. Most people are clever enough to lay down a bit of calcium to stabilize their plaque. I’m apparently not bright enough to accomplish this simple task, and therein lay the mischief. Do not assume that I don’t take supplements. The docs all endorse large doses of Vit. D especially, coupled with Folate which assists in the normal utilization of calcium. We all have a bit of plaque (mine is minimal, but deadly by its nature), so it behooves every one of us to make sure it is the proper kind of plaque. Mine is, apparently, quite improper.
I’d bugged the medicos for years to put me on a statin as a prophylactic measure. Having what seemed to be ideal blood chemistry (and an implied robust cardiovascular system) I was always stiff armed. Well, one stroke later and I guess I showed them! I swear I’m going to have an epitaph stating, “See! I told you there was something wrong with me”. :-)
Rossanne Rosanadana cautioned us,
Hot dogs, bologa,
Salami, Forget ‘em!
Nobody alive,
knows what’s in ‘em.
We’re all gonna’ die
From one thing, or all things.
Like my father says,
It’s always something.
Words to live by, IMHO.
My 38 Y/O wife is a new heart patient and Coumadin user. You are so right on with everything you have said.
She is still bleeding excessively and they have scoped her and modified everything in her treatment to no avail. We do cook alot with fresh herbs since we were told dry herbs contain alot more vitamin K which counteracts with Coumadin.
Her INR levels have been good as well as all her vitals though she is still very weak 8 months out of surgery.
What a rollercoaster it has been. Our prayers are with you. PG
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