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Do colleges redline Asian-Americans?
boston globe ^

Posted on 02/09/2010 6:08:26 AM PST by outpostinmass2

SAT SCORES aren’t everything. But they can tell some fascinating stories.

Take 1,623, for instance. That’s the average score of Asian-Americans, a group that Daniel Golden - editor at large of Bloomberg News and author of “The Price of Admission’’ - has labeled “The New Jews.’’ After all, much like Jews a century ago, Asian-Americans tend to earn good grades and high scores. And now they too face serious discrimination in the college admissions process.

Notably, 1,623 - out of a possible 2,400 - not only separates Asians from other minorities (Hispanics and blacks average 1,364 and 1,276 on the SAT, respectively). The score also puts them ahead of Caucasians, who average 1,581. And the consequences of this are stark.

Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade, who reviewed data from 10 elite colleges, writes in “No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal’’ that Asian applicants typically need an extra 140 points to compete with white students. In fact, according to Princeton lecturer Russell Nieli, there may be an “Asian ceiling’’ at Princeton, a number above which the admissions office refuses to venture.

Emily Aronson, a Princeton spokeswoman, insists “the university does not admit students in categories. In the admission process, no particular factor is assigned a fixed weight and there is no formula for weighing the various aspects of the application.’’

(Excerpt) Read more at boston.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: admissions; asianamericans; highereducation; preferences
Read some of the comments under the article. The people who claim to be admission officers have leave very telling comments.
1 posted on 02/09/2010 6:08:26 AM PST by outpostinmass2
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To: 2Jedismom; 6amgelsmama; AAABEST; aberaussie; adopt4Christ; Aggie Mama; agrace; AliVeritas; ...

Of interest to homeschoolers considering college.


2 posted on 02/09/2010 6:13:33 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: outpostinmass2

At my old High School, the Asian kids are the majority in the Band, The Tennis Team and the Key Club. In 1975 all three were the bastion of our once thriving Jewish community before the Exodus. As I was in all three, I am happy that they have been preserved.


3 posted on 02/09/2010 6:14:10 AM PST by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: outpostinmass2
Yes, and they redlined them yesterday too
4 posted on 02/09/2010 6:17:48 AM PST by ASA Vet (Iran should have ceased to exist Nov 5, 1979, but we had no president then either.)
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To: outpostinmass2

I think its been pretty well established that at least California colleges do, hasn’t it?


5 posted on 02/09/2010 6:18:10 AM PST by GeronL (Dignity is earned from yourself. Respect is earned from others.)
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To: outpostinmass2
“No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal’’ that Asian applicants typically need an extra 140 points to compete with white students. In fact, according to Princeton lecturer Russell Nieli, there may be an “Asian ceiling’’ at Princeton, a number above which the admissions office refuses to venture.

This statement is totally disingenuous. If there's an "asian Ceiling" it's not because they need to make room for white students. There are no slots set aside for white students in any college or you'd have the ACLU screaming bloody murder.

6 posted on 02/09/2010 6:18:42 AM PST by YankeeReb
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To: outpostinmass2

Interesting. If the rationale for affirmative action is to remedy past injustices, then I would think that Asians would have more of a claim of past discrimination than, say, Hispanics. The WWII internments come to mind. That is, if one wants to play the “blame game” at all.

But I believe “diversity” is the present justification. So if one’s skin is yellow, I guess one is out of luck.

All this in the name of “justice.” It’s sick.


7 posted on 02/09/2010 6:19:21 AM PST by cvq3842 (A fool and his liberty are soon parted.)
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To: YankeeReb

What’s the perfect score on SAT’s now? It used to be 1600.


8 posted on 02/09/2010 6:19:51 AM PST by VA_Gentleman ("Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very internet you invented." -Jon Stewart)
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To: outpostinmass2
Yes, very interesting comments. Here are a few that caught my eye. I include reverse discrimination as well.

againstbiasedstudies wrote:
And let's not forget about the white minorities. A generation ago, I was a recently orphaned, college student, white and female. At the time, I was the only one who was not African American or Hispanic in work study. In another program I went to, a scholarship that could have gone to me (because of my grades and test scores) went to a categorized minority.

Because fewer WASP students traditionally fell into the lower socioeconomic strata, there was less aid. My husband and I both fall into this category, where we were discriminated against, based on our white color.

==

pete74 wrote:
I interview applicants for a top-tier local university which, like many others, uses alumni for the job. 90% of the applicants I see in Newton are well qualified for admission, whatever their ethnic background, but only 10% will be admitted. Geographic diversity means that clusters of students in any town who apply to the same college will find it harder to get in than will peers who are the sole applicants from other places. I suspect that part of the story with Asian students can be traced to this effect.


Admitting students because of a parent or Almuni went there makes NO SENSE. What ever happened to MERIT?

Geographic diversity is another word for DISCRIMINATION. Why should it matter WHERE you come from? Are these idiotic elites suffering from “geographic think” as well as “economic” and “race” think as well?

This is what is wrong with liberals. They pigeon hole kids into race, geopgrapic and economic categories based on their LEFTIST feelings. It all comes down to various forms of DISCRIMINATION based on surfacy and ridiculous reasons. We need to get BACK to a MERIT, COLOR and ECONOMIC and GEOGRAPHIC BLIND admission.

9 posted on 02/09/2010 6:20:43 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: outpostinmass2

America is headed down if we can no longer reward excellence. The left loves “diversity” as a means to justify favoritism for their constituencies. You don’t fix racial injustice by more injustice, aka two wrongs don’t make a right.

I speak first hand, because my son was denied an academic scholarship because his score was one point beneath the cut off. Yet, the college had the audacity to tell him straight to his face he would have qualified if he was black. Now I’m fortunate enough to pay (with taxes) for the minority with a lower score who was selected ahead of my son as well as my son’s tuition, too!

Wrong is wrong, no matter how people try to spin it.


10 posted on 02/09/2010 6:22:14 AM PST by CitizenUSA (Governor Palin backs RINO extraordinaire Juan McPain (and that just sucks!))
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To: outpostinmass2

I wonder what Obama’s score was? I bet it is locked away safer than the Coca Cola formula!


11 posted on 02/09/2010 6:23:55 AM PST by Anti-Bubba182
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To: VA_Gentleman

I think it’s now 2400


12 posted on 02/09/2010 6:24:20 AM PST by YankeeReb
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To: YankeeReb
This statement is totally disingenuous. If there's an "asian Ceiling" it's not because they need to make room for white students. There are no slots set aside for white students in any college or you'd have the ACLU screaming bloody murder.

Or CAIR.
13 posted on 02/09/2010 6:25:24 AM PST by crosshairs
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To: nmh

“Diversity” simply means “less successful people”.


14 posted on 02/09/2010 6:25:40 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a humanist and a Satanist is that the latter knows who he's working for.)
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To: cvq3842

Don’t forget Asians don’t vote democrat in high enough numbers. This is a mark against them.


15 posted on 02/09/2010 6:28:21 AM PST by outpostinmass2
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To: YankeeReb

Ivy league schools do have partneships with Exam schools and prep schools to admit a certian amount of the top students each year that go back centuries.

The other unqualified tolken minorities that the ivy’s admit is to keep the ACLU at bay. If the ACLU actually brought the ivy’s to court their whole racist admission policy would be over tomorrow.


16 posted on 02/09/2010 6:33:13 AM PST by outpostinmass2
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To: Anti-Bubba182
I wonder what Obama’s score was? I bet it is locked away safer than the Coca Cola formula!

Slightly off topic, more and more I'm thinking that Soetoro isn't so much hiding his birth certificate as his school records. For instance, what were his grades? What courses did he take? Who financed his education? Not a single mother I'm thinking. What criteria got him into Harvard and on the law review? The bottom line is we know much of his youth was spent in foreign (muslim) countries but what about his schooling and work history. The birth certificate issue may just be a red herring.

17 posted on 02/09/2010 6:33:25 AM PST by YankeeReb
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To: outpostinmass2

“Diversity” just means the institution of a racial spoils system administered by Liberals.


18 posted on 02/09/2010 6:34:02 AM PST by Last Dakotan
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To: outpostinmass2

At least a decade ago friends of ours were told that their daughter would have to be on a wait list for admission to Harvard.

She was brilliant. Her adoptive father was a Harvard grad but their Asian adoptee would be subject to a quota.


19 posted on 02/09/2010 6:34:30 AM PST by Carley (Are you better off now than one year ago? HELL NO!!!!!)
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To: outpostinmass2
Yes the do. At least, they did when I was in college 20 years ago.

They had a point system. Certain races got extra points just for being of that race. Others, got less. Asians, if I remember correctly, got none.
20 posted on 02/09/2010 6:36:40 AM PST by Antoninus (The RNC's dream ticket: Romney / Scozzafava 2012)
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To: YankeeReb

Obama didn’t release his grades from Harvard but he did graduate magna cum laude from Harvard Law School. It would be interesting if he had low grades but was still bestowed the honor.


21 posted on 02/09/2010 6:37:38 AM PST by outpostinmass2
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To: outpostinmass2
From the article:

Indeed, as Princeton’s Nieli suggests, most elite universities appear determined to keep their Asian-American totals in a narrow range. Yale’s class of 2013 is 15.5 percent Asian-American, compared with 16.1 percent at Dartmouth, 19.1 percent at Harvard, and 17.6 percent at Princeton.

I'm an alumnus of MIT. I'm one of those alumni that do prospective freshman interviews. What I see with the Asian kids is that they are focused on academic excellence. Their families make this very clear to them from 1st grade on. The kids often go to school on Saturday as well, either for tutoring or for Chinese school to learn the Chinese language and about their ancestors' culture. They rarely play sports, and if they do it's going to be tennis or golf. Sports are considered frivolous and they take away too much time from what's important. They are very often involved in performing music, generally piano or violin. They rarely have more than one sibling and are often an only child.

MIT's policy with regards to minorities has been to establish two classes; minorities, and "underrepresented minorities". The latter are those minorities whose percentage in the MIT student body is lower than that in the U.S. population at large. Blacks are an example of an underrepresented minority. Underrepresented minorities are automatically accepted IF their grades, test scores, etc. would otherwise qualify them for acceptance. Everyone else enters the pool equally.

MIT does not bend the minimum qualifications for underrepresented minorities - they can't afford to. If they can't hack it they'll get flushed out and that does nobody any favor. Here are the statistics for their most recent freshman class:

Incoming Freshman Class Profile For the MIT class of 2013

Gender

Male 55%

Female 45%

As you probably know, most schools are majority female

Ethnicity & Citizenship

US Citizens & Permanent Residents: 92%

African American 9%

Asian American 26%

Caucasian 36%

Mexican American 8%

Native American 1%

Puerto Rican 2%

Other Hispanic groups 5%

Other/No Response 5%

International citizens 8%

It would appear that the Institute does not have a ceiling on Asian-Americans; if they do, it's significantly higher than the Ivy League schools. Also unlike the Ivy League schools, MIT does not give preference to children of alumni (a.k.a. "legacy admissions").

22 posted on 02/09/2010 6:46:27 AM PST by RonF
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To: VA_Gentleman

They added an essay portion several years ago, which counts for another 800 points, so now perfection is 2400.


23 posted on 02/09/2010 6:46:49 AM PST by Rummyfan (Iraq: it's not about Iraq anymore, it's about the USA!)
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To: nmh
Geographic diversity is another word for DISCRIMINATION. Why should it matter WHERE you come from?

The thinking at MIT is that there are numerous cultural differences between, say, a kid who was raised in the Bronx and a kid who was raised on a ranch from a rural Wyoming town. Geographic diversity yields cultural diversity, which they think is of benefit as the students get exposed to fellow students who have had many different kinds and ways of upbringing.

Understand that MIT gets applications from the best of the best. There are many more kids out there who would do well at MIT than MIT has room for. I've heard it said that their admissions office could throw out the applications for their entire admitted freshman class, take the next-ranked 1000 applications and still have a class that would excel. So they have the luxury of picking and choosing not just for academic excellence - which just about all their applicants have - but for other criteria as well.

24 posted on 02/09/2010 6:53:54 AM PST by RonF
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To: Rummyfan; VA_Gentleman

When I went to MIT the male:female ratio was 10:1. Addition of the essay has led to the uptick in female admission. I’m not against this. You need good communication skills to work together in a team. Development of new science and technology does not good if you cannot communicate it to the world. It does not seem to have slowed down innovation from alumni.


25 posted on 02/09/2010 6:56:23 AM PST by RonF
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To: RonF

MIT is a lot different than most universitiies. Not everyone can pass or understand differential equations. Just about anyone can pass and understand American History. The latter therefor can be a little more lenient in their admission policy.


26 posted on 02/09/2010 6:58:49 AM PST by outpostinmass2
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To: RonF

My objection to the essay portion is that scoring it can be very subjective. But I do realize the importance of being able to communicate ideas and complex technical issues: I’ve worked with some brilliant engineers over the years, but when it came time to do a report or present a paper, it was often gobbledygook.


27 posted on 02/09/2010 7:01:10 AM PST by Rummyfan (Iraq: it's not about Iraq anymore, it's about the USA!)
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To: outpostinmass2

That it is. But my point is that they have a very high percentage of Asian-Americans, whereas if they wanted to they could hold it down and still have an exceptional student body. But they choose to favor admitting the best of the best over a quota system.


28 posted on 02/09/2010 7:02:19 AM PST by RonF
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To: outpostinmass2

I forgot about that!


29 posted on 02/09/2010 7:16:29 AM PST by cvq3842 (A fool and his liberty are soon parted.)
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To: RonF

At UCLA and Berkeley the percentage of Asians is nearly 50%. California’s population is around 12% Asian. They have the highest grades and SAT scores overall. I think the only UC campuses that are plurality white are UC Santa Barbara and UC Santa Cruz (could have something to do with the geography of kids attending closer to home).

The only rationale that makes any sense for discrimination against Asians is a political one. That is, will the voters of California continue to support funding for higher education if a minority of the population is getting a majority of the college spots?


30 posted on 02/09/2010 7:22:55 AM PST by californianmom
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To: metmom
I say this not just to brag, but to encourage others as to what conservative, Christian values and traditional American ethics in a family with 2 parents (of different genders) can lead to:

My son went to a high school with a 40% Asian population. Not surprisingly, it had the #1 HS orchestra in the country. And it produced a disproportionate share of National Merit Scholars. It excelled at academic bowl competitions, winning or placing first out of over 1300 schools worldwide in a certain competition even while these kids were in middle school. These kids were my son's peers. Many of them, of course, are steeped in liberal ideology.

My kid is very conservative politically and very Christian. It was understood that cheating was rampant among the Asian students. Their parents were extremely competitive with each other in the community, and some actually beat their kids to make them study. My son had none of those "advantages."

Yet, I thank God that he had the natural ability and common sense to do things the right way. He was never a "grinder", but he kept his grades up. His teachers loved him, and some from middle school even came to his graduation party. He excelled at working in groups and coming up with creative ideas-- things the Asian kids were not trained at home to do especially well. As a result, he was made captain of the academic team and captain of the band. While leading a well-balanced life, he managed to come out #1 nationally on the National Geography Challenge and win 2 gold medals on the National Latin Exam. He also won the Sousa Award as top band student (played brass and woodwinds) and the Louis Armstrong Award as top jazz student (lead guitar, bass, and arrangements for ensembles and percussion groups). He finished with 44 AP hours, and scored 2290 on the SAT- 800 verbal, 740 math, 770 essay-- with the months of expensive courses that many of the Asian kids took. While his peers went to Ivy League and other top northern schools, he wanted to stay in the Bible Belt and attend public school on academic and music scholarships.

Needless to say, some of the very competitive Asian kids hated him, while others admired him and were (and still are) his friends. He's proved what an American kid can do, and that the values that made this country the best in the world still work.

31 posted on 02/09/2010 7:44:17 AM PST by mikeus_maximus ("I hope that someday we will be able to put away our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people.")
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To: mikeus_maximus

Good for him, and you.

My kids have excelled as well and were all invited to join the honors programs at the colleges to which they applied.

They know how to work with others and think outside the box, and not at the expense of beating them either.

We’d still love and approve of them without being top in anything.


32 posted on 02/09/2010 7:53:30 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: outpostinmass2

And yet Asians are solidly Democratic. Like American Jews they don’t seem to have their own self-interest very well thought out.


33 posted on 02/09/2010 8:34:59 AM PST by Mentos
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To: mikeus_maximus
He finished with 44 AP hours, and scored 2290 on the SAT- 800 verbal, 740 math, 770 essay-- with the months of expensive courses that many of the Asian kids took

Meant without such courses. We did nothing special academically in raising him--the glory belongs to God.

34 posted on 02/09/2010 8:41:06 AM PST by mikeus_maximus ("I hope that someday we will be able to put away our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people.")
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To: VA_Gentleman

35 posted on 02/09/2010 1:03:43 PM PST by SuzyQue (Remember to think.)
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To: rrstar96

ping


36 posted on 02/10/2010 6:18:31 AM PST by lsucat
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