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Posted on 02/10/2010 7:43:13 AM PST by crosshairs
CUPERTINO, CALIF. (TheStreet) -- AppleNASDAQ" PRIMARY="NO"/> makes changing the batteries of new iPod models increasingly difficult by soldering them to the device's casing. Consumers would know this if they repaired such items instead of replacing them.
Apple's obstacles to repair and ToyotaNYSE" PRIMARY="NO"/> and Ford'sNYSE" PRIMARY="NO"/> recent spate of recalls highlight the deteriorating relationship between the buying public and the products it owns. Though Kelley Blue Book and Edmund's say the value of troubled Toyotas dropped more than 4% since recalls were announced, some consumers see replacement as a more viable option than addressing complex electrical and mechanical problems they know increasingly little about.
As cars, electronics and appliances become more intricate, their owners are growing less attached to them. In Consumer Reports' "fix it or nix it" survey, one-third of more than 3,000 respondents who experienced problems with TVs, appliances and other household products opted not to fix them.
"People's relationships with their cars in terms of their personal ability to figure out what's wrong with it has shifted quite a bit in the past 20 years," says Lena Pons, policy analyst for the Auto Safety Group of the consumer advocacy organization Public Citizen. "The most expensive piece of electronic equipment that people own is their car, and they all have proprietary computer algorithms that they use."
There was a time when a car buyer's independent mechanic would have dealt with such issues, but even they are becoming frustrated by the complexity of fixes. Because most cars' computers contain manufacturer-specific fault codes that trigger the growing number of dashboard alert lights, they can only be repaired through dealerships or through independent shops that pay $60,000 to $100,000 for diagnostic equipment that Pons says may only contain a sampling of the necessary codes.
(Excerpt) Read more at finance.yahoo.com ...
iPhones and batteries here... :-)
Good marketing technique...make everyone feel they need your product, but make it so they can’t fix them and have to buy a newer, more expensive one. Yeah, and then add a contract on it, just so you can use it.
"When Apple sealed up the first iPod in 2001 with a battery that you couldn't remove, they were sending a signal that they were not intended to be repaired," Magnabosco says. "I believe they want people to come in and buy a new one when the device isn't charging anymore."
Well..., if there was a "signal" -- it was one that no one received... LOL...
That hasn't stopped iPod or iPhone users from replacing the batteries. In fact, the last I heard, iPhone users get another iPhone to use, while theirs is getting repaired...
I think they put iPhone and iPod in the article or else no one would have bothered looking at the article on Toyota and Ford... LOL...
Everyone knows that Jobs is a crook, but few care. I suppose that we could say the same about Obama.
But in the lovely world of high-end, when I have a problem, I can call the guy who made my preamp and ask him what replacement tubes he recommends. Then I can order a set over the internet, and put them in myself.
I’ve got an iPod from back in 2005 and I haven’t replaced the battery yet. I don’t know when that’s going to happen... one of these years, I’m sure... :-)
And also, I’ve got the original iPhone, just a few days after it came out, and I haven’t replaced that battery either. I don’t see any signs of it wearing down either. So, once again, I’m sure I’ll have to replace it at some year in the future, but I don’t know when...
But, just to see about replacing those batteries (where are all these people that throw away the iPhone or the iPod because their batteries wear down? LOL...) — I looked up “replace ipod battery” and came up with a ton of links. I didn’t bother going through them, as I’m sure they’ll be there in another couple of so years, if I have to replace the batteries then...
This article seems silly to me. Sure, cars are becoming more sophisticated, but they are still machines. I haven’t noticed an increase in the number warning lights on dashboards. What has changed is that all of the parts are speaking to a CPU, which tells the driver exactly what’s wrong with the car (or at least narrows your options significantly).
In the case of newer cars, you don’t even have to hook your car up to a diagnostic device—a readable display tells you what’s wrong. Replace the part, fix the problem, then clear the code, and you’re ready to go. That’s no different than a 1950 Chevy, you’ve just made it easier by adding a computer.
I have a ‘99 Accord. Two years ago I got the check engine light and took it to Autozone, where they read the code for free. I looked up the code on the internet and found it was a clogged gas recirculation port. The dealer wanted $350 to fix it. Through an internet forum I found a detailed explanation of how to fix it. The dealer quoted me 2.5 hours of labor. It took me three. When I was finished, I pulled the fuse, which reset the code. Problem solved.
Integrated technology is great!
Everyone knows that Jobs is a crook, but few care. I suppose that we could say the same about Obama.
Only to those like Steve Ballmer (at Microsoft) who is mad because everything that Steve Jobs has made at Apple beats the heck out of everything else on the market... LOL...
But, considering this is the way that Steve Ballmer runs his "Developer meetings" -- I don't think I would pay attention to Ballmer... :-)
Developers (at YouTube)
i’ve got no problem with new phones/ electronics not being user servicable.. by the time it dies it’ll be obsolete and cheaper to buy a newer one than repair it anyway.
cars.. no way. i’d rather buy an older car for less money, repair/ maintain it myself and save tons of money.
I have yet to own a phone long enough for it to even get to the point of the battery no longer charging.
I am eligible for an upgrade to a 3GS iPhone, so when my current iPhone dies I will upgrade again. Just the way the system works.
The lithium-polymer batteries in your MP3 players and cellphones can and will lose 5-10% of their capacity per year, regardless of much or little they are used. So, over time, the run time you can get off a charge of these devices will deteriorate. Most of them, by the time they reach the point where they no longer provide adequate run time, are obsolete anyway and ready to be replaced with something newer and better. And it’s not just Apple that seals batteries in their MP3 players making them nearly unreplaceable. But you may be able to jimmy the case open and (possibly with the need to do some soldering, as well) replace them. Most cellphones at least have easily replaced batteries (which probably never will be, however), while the iPhone is basically sealed.
i’ve got no problem with new phones/ electronics not being user servicable.. by the time it dies it’ll be obsolete and cheaper to buy a newer one than repair it anyway.
Well, in general, I understand what you mean, but it pays to let people know that this is not a problem with iPods or iPhones (as some may be trying to say... :-) ...).
Manufacturers are coming to grips with the actual-use lifespan of their products.
Apple realizes that owners of digital music players tend to replace them every couple years as newer/niftier models arise - not because there’s anything inherently wrong with the old one, but because most customers just want a new one - so they build the devices according to that use period. In the case of the iPod, they realize that the battery will last about 3 years; since the device will be replaced in 2, there really isn’t much point in going to the added size, weight, cost, & complexity of a user-replaceable battery. Making it replaceable requires two more layers of protective covers, expensive electrical contacts, UL/etc. testing to ensure customers don’t hurt themselves with it, batteries as separate products with all the packaging/sales/marketing/repair/support/etc. BS, usability testing, engineering battery covers, repair of broken covers, etc. etc. $$$. Since the customer is going to chuck the durn thing anyway, and the manufacturer wants to gently encourage said chucking, and the customer wants lower cost/size/weight, so much the better to just spot-weld a battery inside the unit and extend the single simple cover over it. Big savings all around!
Likewise cars: most people switch vehicles around 100,000 miles, so build the car to last that long with minimal repairs in the first place, and have the whole thing self-destruct not long thereafter.
We may complain about the “throwaway society”. This must be balanced against the benefits of no-repair products not needing repair, nor needing all the infrastructure to provide repairs. Ex.: if the manufacturer can prevent need for $1000/year in car repairs on a vehicle the customer will dispose of in 10 years, that’s a savings of $10,000 to the customer at a price of not selling the car for $3000 - a $7000 benefit for the customer; that’s not including (’cuz my brain is fuzzy now) the manufacturer’s savings of not having to support an extensive repair infrastructure. Likewise, my beloved iPod is thinner, lighter & cheaper because there is no need for a removable battery; insofar as it will self-destruct at some point, I’ll have replaced it with an iPad by then.
Kudos to the “throwaway society” recognizing that some products will, indeed, be discarded at some point, and adapting design to serve actual use. My cell phone could be thinner/lighter/cheaper if only the battery (which I will never replace short of replacing the whole phone) were not removable.
BTW: seems the only “durable goods” in our society any more are firearms. Nothing else has an expected lifespan of decades if not centuries.
Well, to tell you the truth, I never thought batteries lasted forever, anyway. I don’t know who came up with that idea... LOL...
But, aside from the fact that batteries don’t last forever, with Apple, they just don’t seem to be any kind of immediate problem that some try to say that they are. I haven’t had a battery problem yet (although I’m sure in some year in the future I will, as I said, batteries eventually wear out).
And it’s not a problem to replace them either... so I don’t know what the big deal is that some people want to complain about.
“Only to those like Steve Ballmer (at Microsoft) who is mad because everything that Steve Jobs has made at Apple beats the heck out of everything else on the market... LOL... “
Oh, I don’t know about that. My MP3 player is a Creative Zen. For less money than a comparable iPod Nano, I got more storage, a bigger screen, and better sound quality. Its only real shortcoming is that it lacks the plethora of third-party support - docks and such, and the ability to control it directly through a compatible car stereo. My car doesn’t even have an aux jack, so that’s not a big lack for me. Still, I can’t debate that the iPod is the THE standard for MP3 players.
Some customers DO want repairable cars. Hopefully some manufacturers will make ‘em accordingly.
Reality is, most consumers don’t want to repair their cars. They want a car that won’t need repairing until they inevitably buy a new one, and are willing to do that replacement a little sooner if they have fewer repairs in the meantime.
Hilarious!
LOL!
My MP3 player is a Creative Zen.
Well... something isn't working there... I don't think it registers a "blip" on the sales charts. In fact, I believe all the other MP3 players are lumped together in charts, because none of them can show more than a "line" on a pie chart (for sales). So, you've got two categories in MP3 players -- Apple, and then "everyone else" [the entire MP3 player group, all manufacturers] ... LOL...
But, you know... it's people like you that surely keep those other companies from going bankrupt... :-)
Do you accept that criteria for quality and value of computer operating systems?
I recently discovered that there is actually a minor industry of people who repair iPhones, that they can often perform minor miracles, and that it is not impossible to get these repairs done at a fairly reasonable price.
Do you accept that criteria for quality and value of computer operating systems?
No, I accept that as an indication that the majority of the public agrees with me and my evaluation of its value and quality... :-)
Repair shops are making a bundle just turning off car warning lights. Pet Boys even has a commercial about this, (When the light comes on, just come in. Ding. Ding. Ding.) I have lights that tell me when a tire is flat, or time to change the oil, or the all purpose, ‘service engine’ light.
Repair shops are making a bundle just turning off car warning lights.
I had one of those warning lights come on in a relative's car and I sorted it out for her. I drove down to AutoZone, they brought out a reader and plugged it in and then printed out the information for me...
It wasn't any big deal... :-)
Oh..., and that was "no charge"...
I recently discovered that there is actually a minor industry of people who repair iPhones, that they can often perform minor miracles, and that it is not impossible to get these repairs done at a fairly reasonable price.
There ya go... free market capitalism right there for you -- right at your service... thank you... :-)
“Well... something isn’t working there... I don’t think it registers a “blip” on the sales charts. In fact, I believe all the other MP3 players are lumped together in charts, because none of them can show more than a “line” on a pie chart (for sales). So, you’ve got two categories in MP3 players — Apple, and then “everyone else” [the entire MP3 player group, all manufacturers] ... LOL... “
What you say is true. What is also true is that my Zen is objectively better than the comparably iPod Nano in a number of areas, which I mentioned (and one I didn’t - it also has an SD card slot for up to 16GB more storage, in addition to the 16 that’s built in). Since I actually think for myself and don’t just run with the herd, I bought what I thought was the better device. I have no real regrets about my purchase. Since it’s essentially a disposable device anyway, I’ll have the chance to revisit that decision in a year or two.
And I’m not saying that there aren’t those who want some of these other brands of players, and obviously you do, too... for what you wanted. And that’s fine. I don’t have any problems with that, with what you wanted for yourself.
All I’m saying is that Apple is doing something that is mighty pleasing to a vast majority of the buying public, because people really like their products.
There’s no company that’s going to have 100% of the market, no matter what (unless they’re some kind of protected company, like a utility company that the government allows).
But, when you’ve got a company that sells in excess of around 70% of the market on a product, they’re doing something that consumers like... :-)
So...market share is the true measure of worthiness? You don't want to head down that trail, do you? ;)
So...market share is the true measure of worthiness? You don't want to head down that trail, do you? ;)
If you read my earlier post on that, you'll see that I say that marketshare is an indication that others agree with me on my evaluation of its worthiness.
In other words, I make the evaluation and then I see that a whole pile of other people have agreed with me, too... and I'm happy to hear that... LOL...
Apple under Steve Jobs has from day one, used marketing to create the illusion in people minds that owning an Apple product shows that you are smarter than average, more in tune with up and coming culture, and one of the beautiful people.
I don't know what people you may know that are operating under this particular marketing illusion (that you mention for Apple), but so far (with what I've found out with other people), it seems that they have found that they are better products.
Now, just speaking for myself, I've never paid attention to the marketing aspect of these things in terms as to whether a product is better or not, or will be more cost effective for me in the long run and/or whether it's a quality product or not.
And what I've found from my experience (and I find other users mirroring my experience, too...) is that the Apple products have high value, they last longer, they are more effective to use and they are much cheaper over the life of the product.
So, I think I've found a company that makes marvelous products. Now, if they also have good advertising -- that makes me all the happier. I would be tremendously disappointed in Apple, if they sold excellent products that all their users recognized as valuable products, and then have them put out crappy advertising... LOL...
“But, when you’ve got a company that sells in excess of around 70% of the market on a product, they’re doing something that consumers like...”
I think to a certain extent it has become a self-fulfilling prophecy, now. Apple’s iPod was one of the first really good MP3 players with a decent amount of storage (thinking of the original hard drive based models, here), combined with good software to manage and download music. Creative also had an HD-based MP3 player out around the same time, but it was not as slickly packaged or promotoed, and didn’t have the software to back it up. Now if you want an MP3 player which has any sort of support from 3rd parties, as in docks, cases, iTunes store, etc, Apple is the obvious default choice.
It’s quite similar to the Windows/Mac marketplace - if you want the OS (and hardware) which is supported by pretty near every hardware and software maker, you get the Windows OS, regardless of the relative merits of alternative OS/hardware platforms such as Mac or Linux. But some people don’t need or want that stuff, and want the best OS/hardware available, as so go the Mac route (although arguably PCs provide the best selection and price/performance ratio on the hardware side).
Since the devices are sealed anyhow, iPods would be an ideal usage for energy storage via capicitors instead of chemical batteries...
But Apple won’t implement THAT because it would undermine the profits generated by their device’s disposable nature.
Battery FUBAR? Just buy a new iPod/Phone with the latest / greatest bells and shistles...
Apple’s iPod was one of the first really good MP3 players with a decent amount of storage (thinking of the original hard drive based models, here), combined with good software to manage and download music. Creative also had an HD-based MP3 player out around the same time, but it was not as slickly packaged or promotoed, and didn’t have the software to back it up.
I've got a long history of using Apple products (original Macintosh and one of the first LaserWriters, and I continue with them because I do think they are the best and have more value for the money. I'm saying that as background for the following.
I've watched Apple move right along in their various products and have participated in their various services/software that they've offered. Now, when talking about the MP3 players, you've got to go back to the program that I used (from an independent developer) that was great at the time. I'm trying my darndest to remember the name of the software, but I can't right now.
[ I remember it now..., it was "SoundJam" distributed by Casady & Greene (a distributor of several different kinds of Macintosh software). ]
But, before that, what came first was actually QuickTime. QuickTime was where Apple got ahead of the game (of where they are now).
It was an excellent product and Microsoft (and Intel) couldn't duplicate the results. In fact Apple got a lot of money out of Microsoft, for them copying the programming in that software.
Anyway..., QuickTime, then the iMac -- that opened the doorway to these other product that came much later.
Then Apple bought that developer's software that was the best music library/MP3 ripper on the market at the time. That, then, turned into iTunes software. That was before the iTunes Music store, now... mind you.
But, it was great, you could rip all your CDs and play it on your computer and there was nothing better.
THEN..., out came iPod... and that was quite the thing and it worked well with the iMac, iTunes software, and now the iPod -- all together. But, there was no iTunes Music store at that time.
And then Apple opened the iTunes Music Store at the end of April in 2003. That was a big deal and I signed up immediately and started downloading songs from that store.
So, now it was QuickTime, iMac, iTunes software, iPod, and lastly iTunes Music Store.
What I'm saying is that there has been a synchroncity to the whole group of products and how they all work together, to make the sum of them, much much more than the individual products themselves. And that plays -- bigtime -- into this whole marketing scheme of Apple's.
When they came out with iPhone, which piggy-backs right on with QuickTime, iMac, the iTunes software, the iTunes Music Store (and movies now), plus all the podcasts that you get there -- it just keeps building and building and building -- on an overall tightly-knit comprehensive product scheme that just all works together like nothing you've ever see before.
And so, with that, we've got iPad coming up and that's another one I'm going to be getting too. There are so many people that are perfect for that iPad, and with how they use computers -- they should really have an iPad and not a computer (along with, of course, having the iPod and iPhone... :-) ...).
All these products have a dynamic in the entire interaction with each other that you can't get with any one product anywhere else. It just doesn't happen.
That's why Apple is so wildly successful with what it's been doing since 1997...
Battery FUBAR
Ummmm..., "battery FUBAR" in regards to these Apple products is simply the "anti's" FUD..., nothing more... :-)
This is an old story. This is repeated every few years. It ws even repeated when the cassette walkman had come out.
This reporter has too much time and should be in line for downsizing.
Instead of reporting on the issue of secret fault codes, they recycle a 40 year old story.
Does the iPod battery last forever?
How does the consumer replace it?
“Does the iPod battery last forever?
How does the consumer replace it?”
Let me answer that. No, it doesn’t. Like any Li-Po or Li-ion battery, it loses capacity over time.
Apple does not intend for the battery to be replaced. They don’t make replacement batteries available or provide a service to do it. However, since iPods are so common, and the battery they use (or one very similar to it) is available through specialized suppliers, there are instructions available on how to do it. For the iPods where the batteries are wired through a connector, you can buy replacement batteries with the same connector and do it yourself. It involved prying open the case (which really wasn’t meant to be), replacing the battery, and sticking the case back together. Apparently now the new iPods and iPhones have the batteries soldered right in, so the replacement will be a little more complicated, but anyone half-ways handy with a soldering iron could probably manage it. None of these are Apple-supported procedure, so you pays yer money and takes yer chances. The worst that happens is that the iPod or iPhone ends up bricked, you’re out the cost of the repair/replacement battery, and you have to buy a new one.
Because my MP3 player is not so popular, I most likely can’t expect to find any such support when the battery in it dies, and I’ll be looking for a new one. Probably an iPod Touch or Nano. Or maybe a smartphone of some sort.
Does the iPod battery last forever?
LOL... it's a "battery"... :-) [I think I answered that one in another post, Post #7...]
I’ve got an iPod from back in 2005 and I haven’t replaced the battery yet. I don’t know when that’s going to happen... one of these years, I’m sure... :-)
And also, I’ve got the original iPhone, just a few days after it came out, and I haven’t replaced that battery either. I don’t see any signs of it wearing down either. So, once again, I’m sure I’ll have to replace it at some year in the future, but I don’t know when...
But, just to see about replacing those batteries (where are all these people that throw away the iPhone or the iPod because their batteries wear down? LOL...) — I looked up “replace ipod battery” and came up with a ton of links. I didn’t bother going through them, as I’m sure they’ll be there in another couple of so years, if I have to replace the batteries then...
I guess I'll have to get back to you in a couple of years and let you know what I do about it... :-)
To correct myself, Apple actually does provide a battery replacement service for most (all?) models of iPods, as well.
That being said; I love my iPhone. And I'll probably get an iPad, although not the first day.
["I’m sure I’ll have to replace it at some year in the future"]
IOW, you've never replaced an iPod battery and are LOLing out of your arse.
[where are all these people that throw away the iPhone or the iPod because their batteries wear down? LOL...]
I've gone through several cell phones in the past decade where replacing the phone was more economical than replacing the battery.
I've had my iPod Nano since 2006.. still seems to be recharging just fine - but batteries fail, and a lot sooner than capacitors do. Can you say - planned obsolescence?
Regarding battery replacement - here is a typical verbiage:
"If it is out of warranty, Apple will replace the battery in your iPod nano for a cost of US$59 plus US$6.95 shipping.
A variety of third-party services also are available, including one from site sponsor Other World Computing. The company offers a battery replacement service for considerably less than Apple charges and sells "longer runtime than stock" batteries for self-installation as well.
Replacing the battery in all iPod nano models is extremely difficult and requires soldering. Professional installation is strongly recommended. "
Most consumer sheeple today have been trained to be dependent so they can't even change the oil in their cars... let alone run a simple soldering iron without destroying wave soldered components.
Which leaves them with:.
Hmm, $65.00 and the inconvenience of waiting for their 1st generation iPod to be "repaired" - or:
Apple® - iPod nano® 8GB* MP3 Player (5th Generation) - Black $133.00
We guarantee our IPOD batteries for a full ten (10) years! No other IPOD battery company out there offers this duration of coverage! For more information, please see our Ten (10) Year Battery Guarantee for more details.
Well, if these "yapping ninnies" are complaining about getting a battery replaced and having a ten-year guarantee on it... they need to get some medication to calm themselves down... :-)
IOW, you've never replaced an iPod battery and are LOLing out of your arse.
Yeah... the whole thing is so funny and ridiculous. I just found (right off the bat) that you get a 10-year guarantee on getting another battery... My goodness, if some of these ninnies are complaining about that, they've got more serious problems than batteries... :-)
I've had my iPod Nano since 2006.. still seems to be recharging just fine - but batteries fail, and a lot sooner than capacitors do. Can you say - planned obsolescence?
I don't know about you, but I've never considered "batteries wearing out" to be an "obsolescence problem" that was built-in to a product in order to get you to replace it... LOL..
I mean, I've always figured that was the nature of batteries, in that they wear out, not that it was a factor in a company getting you to get another one of their products, and especially not a factor when you get the battery replaced and get a 10-year guarantee on that replacement battery.
Heck, the whole phone system will have changed in ten years .... :-)
[Apparently now the new iPods and iPhones have the batteries soldered right in, so the replacement will be a little more complicated, but anyone half-ways handy with a soldering iron could probably manage it.]
Probably. Presuming they’ve still got the steady hands and eyesight required for soldering on wave-soldered gminiturized components. (There are Youtube vids that document the procedure, BTW)
Not sure I still do... and rather than wasting the time required to find out; I’d probably just dispose of the old device.... replace it with the latest and greatest for a little more than the cost of two tanks of 2.50 gas, and be done with it.
[I just found (right off the bat) that you get a 10-year guarantee on getting another battery.]
That’s for a replacement battery, moron; and presumes the “repair” company will even be in bidness in 10 years.
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[but I’ve never considered “batteries wearing out” to be an “obsolescence problem”]
I don’t see much evidence you’ve ever “considered” much at all.
The batteries in most consumer electronics are accessible and user-serviceable. It’s a reasonable expectation to be able to replace them... easily.
Apple could have designed their devices with batteries that are EASILY serviceable by the consumer. They DIDN’T.
“Apple could have designed their devices with batteries that are EASILY serviceable by the consumer. They DIDN’T.”
I’m not Apple fan-boi - see my posts above. While they could have done that, much as Creative could have done for my Zen MP3 player, doing so would have made the device larger, heavier and more complex. The iPod Nano, in particular, has a lot of stuff packed into a very small container. So, it’s a trade-off between easy battery replacements and size and complexity.
Capacitors have much lower energy density than chemical batteries. But don't take my word for it -- ask all those companies using capacitors to power portable devices. Let me know if you find one.
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