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Antonin Scalia: No right to secede
The Washington Post ^ | 17 Feb 2010 | Robert Barnes

Posted on 02/17/2010 9:08:09 AM PST by Palter

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To: Palter

Utimately, in the end, the Second ammendment trumps all.


151 posted on 02/17/2010 1:47:24 PM PST by central_va ( http://www.15thvirginia.org/)
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To: CodeToad
Thank you!

Would these same people ( Turn in their Firearms ) If the Supremos rules against them? James Madison understood all of this - The legislature of the State could ‘impose’ itself.

“But it is objected, that the judicial authority is to be regarded as the sole expositor of the Constitution in the last resort; and it may be asked for what reason the declaration by the General Assembly, supposing it to be theoretically true, could be required at the present day, and in so solemn|a manner.

On this objection it might be observed, first, that there may be instances of usurped power, which the forms of the Constitution would never draw within the control of the judicial department; secondly, that, if the decision of the judiciary be raised above the authority of the sovereign parties to the Constitution, the decisions of the other departments, not carried by the forms of the Constitution before the judiciary, must be equally authoritative and final with the decisions of that department. But the proper answer to the objection is, that the resolution of the General Assembly relates to those great and extraordinary cases, in which all the forms of the Constitution may prove ineffectual against infractions dangerous to the essential rights of the parties to it. The resolution supposes that dangerous powers, not delegated, may not only be usurped and executed by the other departments, but that the judicial department, also, may exercise or sanction dangerous powers beyond the grant of the Constitution; and, consequently, that the ultimate right of the parties to the Constitution, to judge whether the compact has been dangerously violated, must extend to violations by one delegated authority as well as by another—by the judiciary as well as by the executive, or the legislature.”

152 posted on 02/17/2010 1:48:16 PM PST by Idabilly
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To: calex59
"Preamble Note We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

What preamble you reading? Perhaps the Declaration of Independence?

153 posted on 02/17/2010 1:54:04 PM PST by mad_as_he$$ (usff.com)
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To: mad_as_he$$

Ok, so I was a little off base, the fact remains that we have the right to secede, our constitution says so and the rights we have as free people says so.


154 posted on 02/17/2010 1:57:43 PM PST by calex59
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To: FateAmenableToChange

Can you show me one historical example where the assertion of a revolution, without (at least) the threat of force, was successful in securing the political objective?

(Just for a moment, let’s leave out the Exodus from Egypt. Somehow I don’t think God holds the same favor for us that He did for Israel.)


155 posted on 02/17/2010 1:58:13 PM PST by shibumi (Health and well being for S. and L. - in Jesus name we pray!)
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To: wolfcreek

I have wondered what our military commanders (and troops) would do if he ordered them to use force to keep them from seceding. I can’t imagine federal troops firing on their national guard brothers because Obama said so.

It’s not the 1860’s any more.


156 posted on 02/17/2010 2:05:49 PM PST by Abathar (Proudly posting without reading the article carefully since 2004)
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To: calex59

Please show me where the Constitution says that.


157 posted on 02/17/2010 2:08:51 PM PST by mad_as_he$$ (usff.com)
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To: Non-Sequitur

“Well if the next rebellion is depending on the likes of you for its success then I’m certainly not going to be losing any sleep over it.”

I would offer an Honorable solution to( your and our differences ) But you’d call some Federal Agency.

P.S
Wussy


158 posted on 02/17/2010 2:14:18 PM PST by Idabilly
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To: rwfromkansas; All
That makes no sense. The winner isn’t necessary right....they just happened to win.

The winners of wars get to dictate history.

159 posted on 02/17/2010 2:20:15 PM PST by wastedyears (The curtain has fallen, behold the messiah.)
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To: mad_as_he$$
The constitution says that in the course of human events if the people decide that the government is oppressive(not an exact quote, but try reading the constitution sometimes, it might help you)then they have the right to change it. That means, in effect, that we have the right to secede, whether the frickin' supreme court or the feds will admit it or not.

As human beings, we have the right to choose our government and when it because a dictatorship we have the right to throw off the shackles and change it. Secession is changing the government.

Don't believe that? Then you don't believe in individual freedom and deserve to be a slave to people like Bozo, the WH clown.

160 posted on 02/17/2010 2:23:45 PM PST by calex59
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To: mad_as_he$$
Consent of the Governed.

States acceded to the Federal Constitution they can secede from. http://books.google.com/books?id=q_M9AAAAIAAJ&dq=albert+taylor+bledsoe+davis+a+traitor&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=vWxmgmzQ0h&sig=oVKoEHBf5sVdduijWjfIa_hOFoU&hl=en&ei=PPGVSuivI-qI8QaVvoS3DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

161 posted on 02/17/2010 2:24:50 PM PST by Idabilly
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To: calex59
Off point. EXACTLY where does it say in the Constitution that a Sate has the right to secede?
162 posted on 02/17/2010 2:32:39 PM PST by mad_as_he$$ (usff.com)
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To: Idabilly

Opinion.


163 posted on 02/17/2010 2:38:41 PM PST by mad_as_he$$ (usff.com)
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To: MrRobertPlant2009

To which all the NC residents say, “Sure, just as soon as you give us back all the stuff in NY, that was built partly with funds from US!”


164 posted on 02/17/2010 2:40:19 PM PST by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: cowboyway

“Unless you can point to the clause in the Constitution allowing rebellion.”

He fails to understand the Constitution limits the power of the government and not a document that tells us what we can do.


165 posted on 02/17/2010 2:42:50 PM PST by CodeToad (If it weren't for physics and law enforcement I'd be unstoppable!)
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To: mad_as_he$$

“EXACTLY where does it say in the Constitution that a Sate has the right to secede? “

Where does it say they do not?


166 posted on 02/17/2010 2:43:18 PM PST by CodeToad (If it weren't for physics and law enforcement I'd be unstoppable!)
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To: ForGod'sSake

“We don’t need to overthrow anything, we need to get the feral government train back on the tracks — whether they like it or not.

Yep. I’ve been saying myself that this is not a revolution but a counter-revolution. We need to get our country back.


167 posted on 02/17/2010 2:45:12 PM PST by CodeToad (If it weren't for physics and law enforcement I'd be unstoppable!)
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To: Abathar
I have wondered what our military commanders (and troops) would do if he ordered them to use force to keep them from seceding. I can’t imagine federal troops firing on their national guard brothers because Obama said so. It’s not the 1860’s any more.

The closest example would be the federal government nationalizing the state national guards to enfore desegregation orders in the 1950s and 60s. The state guardsmen followed the federal orders then.

168 posted on 02/17/2010 2:50:41 PM PST by Lurking Libertarian (Non sub homine, sed sub Deo et lege)
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To: Bubba Ho-Tep

I think the more important issues that “settled” the matter were the passing of the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments. Those three sealed the fact that the states were junior to the federal government in the Constitutional scheme. The states essentially lost all control over the regulation of individuals within their boundaries and it clarified that all citizens of the states are also citizens of the United States.

And really, from a legal standpoint, that is why secession would not be allowed. If Texas decided to leave the union, Texas would - in theory - be denying its residents federally protected rights.


169 posted on 02/17/2010 2:51:20 PM PST by MrRobertPlant2009
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To: ForGod'sSake

More likely the Feds don’t have a RIGHT to STOP me personally, nor the States collectively from Seceeding!


170 posted on 02/17/2010 2:52:42 PM PST by JSDude1 (www.wethepeopleindiana.org (Tea Party Member-Proud), www.travishankins.com (R- IN 09 2010!))
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To: CodeToad
The Constitution give the government the power to suppress insurrections. What are the magic words that turn an insurrection into something that the government has no power to suppress?

Did the government have any authority to suppress slave uprisings like Nat Turner's Rebellion?

171 posted on 02/17/2010 2:53:37 PM PST by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: Palter

I was thinking I read somewhere that Texas did have the right of succession, but none of the other states.


172 posted on 02/17/2010 2:53:49 PM PST by greeneyes (Moderation in defense of your country is NO virtue. Let Freedom Ring.)
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To: FateAmenableToChange
Secession and Revolution are similar but not identical. So it's not by calling up John Locke's Natural Law doctrine that Secession is made a right, it is by calling up the Constitution (and perhaps Dec. of Independence) themselves.

(The latter, by the way does codify the DUTY not right, or people to overthrow tyrannical governemnts, but I'm back to revolution when I want to stay on secession).

The question of secession is much simpler: is the Constitution an irrevocable contract, regardless of what anyone does.

Scalia's answer does not satisfy. It is simply: Might Makes Right. That's not a legal answer.

The answer is to be found in a careful study of the Constitution and the documents surrounding its creation. There are several books that explore this:

One Nation, Indivisible? A Study of Secession and the Constitution (Paperback) ~ Robert, F. Hawes (Author)

There is also the historical view, ie: what was said the first time. Like this book:

Constitutional History Secession, A (Hardcover) ~ John Graham (Author), Donald Livingston (Foreword)

When in the Course of Human Events: Arguing the Case for Southern Secession (Paperback) ~ Charles Adams (Author)

There is even a "how to" guide for Vermont.

I imagine Scalia would have a better answer if it came up before the court, as it well may. This was a short sweet note to someone.

173 posted on 02/17/2010 2:54:56 PM PST by Jack Black
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To: Christian_Capitalist

Dred Scott, Slaughterhouse, Cruikshank, Roe, Casey, Kelo, Raich, Bean...


174 posted on 02/17/2010 2:55:23 PM PST by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: shibumi
Can you show me one historical example where the assertion of a revolution, without (at least) the threat of force, was successful in securing the political objective?

The Velvet Revolution?

175 posted on 02/17/2010 2:55:53 PM PST by Jack Black
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To: MrRobertPlant2009
“I think the more important issues that “settled” the matter were the passing of the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments. Those three sealed the fact that the states were junior to the federal government in the Constitutional scheme. The states essentially lost all control over the regulation of individuals within their boundaries and it clarified that all citizens of the states are also citizens of the United States.

And really, from a legal standpoint, that is why secession would not be allowed. If Texas decided to leave the union, Texas would - in theory - be denying its residents federally protected rights.”

How so?

Since the 14th Amendment was never ratified.
http://www.sweetliberty.org/fourteenth.amend.htm

176 posted on 02/17/2010 3:00:48 PM PST by Idabilly
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To: Above My Pay Grade
If New York and California want to secede, it would be ok with me.LOL.
177 posted on 02/17/2010 3:01:39 PM PST by greeneyes (Moderation in defense of your country is NO virtue. Let Freedom Ring.)
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To: Idabilly

“Since the 14th Amendment was never ratified.”

And we are off to Militiaville.

I spent six months of my life getting emails from a client who wanted me to argue - in federal court - that the 14th Amendment was never ratified. I was eventually able to persuade him that such a tactic would probably do little more than make the judge want to hit him in the head with a gavel.


178 posted on 02/17/2010 3:03:45 PM PST by MrRobertPlant2009
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To: greeneyes

>>>If New York and California want to secede, it would be ok with me.LOL.<<<

Well, if that happens, I’d have to move to the new and improved USA. Would you take me, or would you bar immigration from the People’s Republic of New York? :)


179 posted on 02/17/2010 3:04:57 PM PST by Above My Pay Grade (Read My Palm: No More Socialism - Palin 2012)
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To: Jack Black
Can you show me one historical example where the assertion of a revolution, without (at least) the threat of force, was successful in securing the political objective?

If we go back to the original topic the question should be: can you show me one historical example of secession where at least the threat of force was not needed to secure the objective

Singapore secession from Malaysia, 1963.

Here is a fun webpage on this topic. It shows "secession meet up groups" in a map format.

180 posted on 02/17/2010 3:05:47 PM PST by Jack Black
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To: Jack Black
"The Velvet Revolution?"

A striking, if atypical example.

Do you think there's a snowball's chance in hell it would play out that way here?

By the way, I appreciate the distinction you are drawing between the legal status of a revolution and the act of secession. The fact is, however, that secession would be seen as, and would be de facto a revolutionary act.
181 posted on 02/17/2010 3:12:48 PM PST by shibumi (Health and well being for S. and L. - in Jesus name we pray!)
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To: CodeToad
You and many other armchair lawyers really need to go study Civics 101 and contract law.
182 posted on 02/17/2010 3:18:40 PM PST by mad_as_he$$ (usff.com)
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To: MrRobertPlant2009

We are talking about Courts that restrict are First Amendment ( Fighting words,Hate laws ).

What Freedom? Facts are Facts - No matter what popular belief is.


183 posted on 02/17/2010 3:20:22 PM PST by Idabilly
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To: Idabilly

our


184 posted on 02/17/2010 3:21:30 PM PST by Idabilly
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To: RED SOUTH
Actually most states joined the Union under certain contractual agreements extraneous to the Constitution. If at anytime the Union fails to meet, uphold, or overrun said state the contract is non-binding.

So stick that in your ear Scalia!

The new constitution and government of Ohio was required only to be “republican, and not repugnant to the ordinance of the thirteenth of July, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-seven, between the original States and the people and States of the territory northwest of the river Ohio,” Enabling Act of 1802.

So this would lead me to think that if the Federal government fails to meet the republican standard...we have the right and obligation to secede.

185 posted on 02/17/2010 3:22:16 PM PST by EBH (The warning bell of Freedom is ringing, can you not hear it?)
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To: DesertRhino

If Texas decides to go... 9 robed jurists will have NO SAY.

LLS


186 posted on 02/17/2010 3:24:40 PM PST by LibLieSlayer (hussama will never be my president... NEVER!)
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To: stainlessbanner

You might actually consider this quote too:

—That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,


187 posted on 02/17/2010 3:24:52 PM PST by EBH (The warning bell of Freedom is ringing, can you not hear it?)
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To: mad_as_he$$
“You and many other armchair lawyers really need to go study Civics 101 and contract law.”

OK

“Consent. A valid contract also requires the parties’ consent, which must be free, mutual and communicated to each other. Consent is not free when obtained through duress, menace, fraud, undue influence or mistake. Books have been written about the complexities of those factors. Obviously, a person who signs a contract because there's a gun pointed at his head hasn't consented to the agreement and can rescind it. All cases, of course, are not that clear-cut, and the law must applied to each individual case.”

Therefor - Any law passed - After - Lincoln's war is VOID

188 posted on 02/17/2010 3:27:12 PM PST by Idabilly
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To: Bubba Ho-Tep

“The Constitution give the government the power to suppress insurrections”

Insurrections, yes, States leaving, no.


189 posted on 02/17/2010 3:42:41 PM PST by CodeToad (If it weren't for physics and law enforcement I'd be unstoppable!)
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To: Idabilly
I would offer an Honorable solution to( your and our differences ) But you’d call some Federal Agency.

No, I'd probably burst out laughing. Try me.

190 posted on 02/17/2010 3:48:44 PM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: Idabilly
Giant leap there. The South fought a war and lost. The powers that were in charge consented (under duress) to rejoin the Union. ALL of that was voted upon by the citizenry and subsequently by their duly elected officials. You would get thrown out of court in seconds on the logic you stated.
191 posted on 02/17/2010 3:54:53 PM PST by mad_as_he$$ (usff.com)
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To: Above My Pay Grade

All Freepers welcome. The rest of NYorkers are banned.LOL


192 posted on 02/17/2010 3:57:39 PM PST by greeneyes (Moderation in defense of your country is NO virtue. Let Freedom Ring.)
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To: CodeToad; Bubba Ho-Tep
“The Constitution give the government the power to suppress insurrections”

“Insurrections, yes, States leaving, no.”

James Madison - Discussed this very subject

“The use of force against a state would look more like a declaration of war than an infliction of punishment, and would probably be considered by the party attacked as a dissolution of all previous compacts by which it might be bound.”

Mr. Hamilton talked about this -

“It has been observed, to coerce the states is one of the maddest projects that was ever devised. A failure of compliance will never be confined to a single state. This being the case, can we suppose it wise to hazard a civil war?
“Suppose Massachusetts, or any large state, should refuse, and Congress should attempt to compel them, would they not have influence to procure assistance, especially from those states which are in the same situation as themselves? What picture does this idea present to our view? A complying state at war with a non-complying state; Congress marching the troops of one state into the bosom of another; this state collecting auxiliaries, and forming, perhaps, a majority against the federal head.

“Here is a nation at war with itself. Can any reasonable man be well disposed towards a government which makes war and carnage the only means of supporting itself — a government that can exist only by the sword? Every such war must involve the innocent with the guilty. This single consideration should be sufficient to dispose every peaceable citizen against such a government. But can we believe that one state will ever suffer itself to be used as an instrument of coercion? The thing is a dream; it is impossible.”

193 posted on 02/17/2010 4:04:21 PM PST by Idabilly
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To: Idabilly
Since the 14th Amendment was never ratified.

Why does it not surprise me that an anti-semitic, holocaust-denying, White-Citizens-Council-leading, Huey-Long-following Louisiana political boss , who was quoted as saying, "Negroes are just not equipped to vote" wrote a legal brief in a school desegregation case arguing for his viewpoint.

You really need to develop your crackpot filter.

194 posted on 02/17/2010 4:04:39 PM PST by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: Idabilly
Therefor - Any law passed - After - Lincoln's war is VOID

I dare you to commit a crime and use that as your defense.

195 posted on 02/17/2010 4:06:11 PM PST by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: CodeToad
Insurrections, yes, States leaving, no.

But what constitutes a legal secession? How many people do I have to get on my petition in order to declare myself and the others an independent nation? At what point can I get out my guns and start defending my self-defined borders? I really want that Army base up the road. Can I take that and everything on it, too?

196 posted on 02/17/2010 4:12:35 PM PST by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: Bubba Ho-Tep
I'm Glad ( You enjoy an unlawful Amendment ) That gave your beloved Supremo Court - The Loophole to Ok the MURDER of Unborn Children and Flooding your Empire with illegal immigrants. We must not deny that due process right?

Take your 14th Amendment and shove it!

197 posted on 02/17/2010 4:17:21 PM PST by Idabilly
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To: FateAmenableToChange

Bump. Good information.


198 posted on 02/17/2010 4:20:49 PM PST by BuckeyeTexan (Integrity, Honesty, Character, & Loyalty still matter)
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To: Idabilly
Your contempt for the constitutional process is noted.

Take your 14th Amendment and shove it!

Yeah! Who needs a right to vote?

199 posted on 02/17/2010 4:22:56 PM PST by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: Bubba Ho-Tep

“I really want that Army base up the road. Can I take that and everything on it, too?”

If the base if Ft. Sumter, yes.


200 posted on 02/17/2010 4:28:11 PM PST by MrRobertPlant2009
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