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THEREíS SUCH A THING AS A TOO-SMALL GUN
backwoodshome.com ^ | 18 February, 2010 | Massad Ayoob

Posted on 02/20/2010 5:03:18 AM PST by marktwain

If you’ve read my column in Backwoods Home Magazine for any length of time, you’ve noticed how frequently I’ve made the point that it’s close to hopeless for a smaller person to try to shoot well with a gun too big or too long in the stock for them, and easier for a larger person to adapt to a gun that’s too small. Well, this past weekend, I was reminded that there actually is such a thing as a gun too small for the largest shooters.

I was at a Glock match in Orlando (www.gssfonline.com) with the usual suspects and three shooters new to this particular discipline. One of the latter was Vince Edwards, an accomplished shooter in IDPA (www.idpa.com) and a very competent firearms instructor. Now, back when Vince was a cop he carried his department’s issue Glock 22 and shot it well, but as soon as he left the agency and was able to pick his own gun he chose a full size 1911 .45 automatic. You see, Vince stands six-feet-five, tips the scales past the 300 mark, and wears Size 15 shoes with proportional size hands. I’ve seen sausages in Polish butcher shops smaller than this guy’s fingers.

Well, he’d been away from Glocks for a while, so he came out to our range to get the feel of things with some of ours, which he used in the subsequent match at the excellent Central Florida Rifle & Pistol Club. In just a few practice rounds for the Major Sub event, where you use a subcompact .45, his hands proved so big that the slide of my Glock 30SF drew blood from the web of his hand during firing. Not something you see with those guns every day.

(Excerpt) Read more at backwoodshome.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: ayoob; banglist; gun; massadayoob; shooting
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It is much easier to shoot a gun that fits your hands.
1 posted on 02/20/2010 5:03:18 AM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain
This fits in my hand.


2 posted on 02/20/2010 5:10:10 AM PST by Lazamataz (Do it for the children.)
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To: marktwain
I've been shooting my 10 inch S&W 460 mag for a couple years; sure like the quarter size holes it burns through 3/8 steel pipe and the fact that I can hit a 12 inch target about every third time at 3-4 hundred yards, open sights on sand bags.

I've seen a couple women shoot it with 395 grain corbons too.

3 posted on 02/20/2010 5:10:27 AM PST by Eska
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To: marktwain

4 posted on 02/20/2010 5:14:42 AM PST by Iron Munro (God is great, Beer is good, People are crazy)
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To: marktwain

Yup. When we switched over from the SW .38 to the Beretta 9mm, I too got “bit” a couple times. If your smart, thats about all it takes to figure it out. That slide is a moving component on that firearm, just like the fan belt on a car. Keep your appendages away from it.


5 posted on 02/20/2010 5:15:44 AM PST by scoobysnak71 (I'm light skinned with no negro dialect. Could you milk me?)
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To: marktwain

..same with a shotgun...the rifleman has his sights...the shotgunner’s sight is the fit of his stock...a gun that naturally mounts properly means less crippled birds...and that makes you a better sportsman.


6 posted on 02/20/2010 5:15:48 AM PST by STONEWALLS
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To: Eska
S&W 460 mag

What percentage rate did you get for the mortgage on a box of ammo?

7 posted on 02/20/2010 5:19:08 AM PST by HospiceNurse
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To: HospiceNurse

8 posted on 02/20/2010 5:25:07 AM PST by umgud (I couldn't understand why the ball kept getting bigger......... then it hit me.)
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To: marktwain

This suits me just fine. Lotta rogue elephants in my neighborhood. :-)

9 posted on 02/20/2010 5:26:36 AM PST by DemforBush (Somebody wake me when sanity has returned to the nation.)
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To: Iron Munro

LOL!


10 posted on 02/20/2010 5:26:59 AM PST by IllumiNaughtyByNature (3V3Ry71N' 084M4 D03z 83N3f17Z MU5l1mz. c01NC1d3nc3?)
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To: Iron Munro

LOVE the pic!


11 posted on 02/20/2010 5:27:39 AM PST by DemforBush (Somebody wake me when sanity has returned to the nation.)
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To: marktwain
Easier to carry.


12 posted on 02/20/2010 5:28:46 AM PST by paulycy (Demand Constitutionality.)
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To: marktwain
I bought a .32 Beretta Tomcat for the Missus. First time I shot it it put a nice pair red railroad tracks on the web of my hand. Ow!

Seemed like a good idea for her since she has a hard time racking slides. I'll stick with my J-Frame.

This is now a gun porn thread!

13 posted on 02/20/2010 5:30:27 AM PST by TC Rider (The United States Constitution - 1791. All Rights Reserved.)
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To: Iron Munro

Ping


14 posted on 02/20/2010 5:44:54 AM PST by erman (Our President-A modest man, who has much to be modest about.)
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To: marktwain

Vince Edwards shoots at my local range in NE Florida, where he is a safety officer during IDPA events. A friendlier, nicer, funnier guy you will never meet in your life.


15 posted on 02/20/2010 5:49:47 AM PST by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: marktwain

I am a .500 S&W man. The .500 has a small comfortable grip and it can kill anything in North America, including boredom. One more thing the weight of the revolver, plus the magnaports, result in a recoil that is far less than a .44 Special Bulldog. I was pissed at S&W when they sold out to the socialist anti-gun British, but they are now a U.S. company and all is forgiven.


16 posted on 02/20/2010 5:50:02 AM PST by Sarah-bot ("I'm fit, I'm lite, and I sure ain't take'n' no [mitt]. ")
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To: umgud

Simply too small. Maybe for back up.


17 posted on 02/20/2010 5:58:15 AM PST by Eagle Eye (The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.)
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To: umgud

Wow...seriously? A pocket .50 BMG? What a knuckle knocker! I want one!!


18 posted on 02/20/2010 6:00:40 AM PST by WKUHilltopper (Fix bayonets!)
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To: Sarah-bot

“I was pissed at S&W when they sold out to the socialist anti-gun British, but they are now a U.S. company and all is forgiven.”

I came back to S&W when they came back home too...


19 posted on 02/20/2010 6:03:38 AM PST by WKUHilltopper (Fix bayonets!)
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To: Iron Munro

20 posted on 02/20/2010 6:11:15 AM PST by Bean Counter (I keeps mah feathers numbered, for just such an emergency...)
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To: Lazamataz

Just don’t let the kiddies take one of those to scrool, they will get EXPELLED!!


21 posted on 02/20/2010 6:17:43 AM PST by Nekman (One Big Ass Mistake America...How's that Hope/Change thingy working out?)
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To: marktwain

I thought guys [and women] always knew bigger is better.


22 posted on 02/20/2010 6:38:56 AM PST by Shooter 2.5 (NRA /Patron - TSRA- IDPA)
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To: marktwain
I am still stunned by the fact that the Genius of Browning designed a gun that EXACTLY fits my hands almost fifty years before I was born.
23 posted on 02/20/2010 6:44:08 AM PST by mad_as_he$$ (usff.com)
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To: Shooter 2.5

I thought it was how you use it...;-)


24 posted on 02/20/2010 6:46:47 AM PST by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus sayin')
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To: marktwain

The same with a rifle. As I recall, the biggest man carried the BAR. Everytime I pick out a rifle or shotgun I notice its weight, how it comes up to my shoulder, and how it carries in my hand. I try it with my hunting coat on and draw a bead.
Some rifles/shotguns have a good balance for carrying in one hand, some don’t. Any sporting rifle or shotgun that weighs more than 9 pounds is too heavy to carry all day.


25 posted on 02/20/2010 6:48:57 AM PST by Citizen Tom Paine
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To: stevie_d_64

There’s just some things you can’t do with a smaller gun.


26 posted on 02/20/2010 7:01:02 AM PST by Shooter 2.5 (NRA /Patron - TSRA- IDPA)
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To: marktwain
This one fits just right, Goldilocks:


27 posted on 02/20/2010 7:01:52 AM PST by Jeff Chandler (:: The government will do for health care what it did for real estate. ::)
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To: marktwain

I owned a little .32 once, couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn with it.


28 posted on 02/20/2010 7:21:37 AM PST by Graybeard58 ("0bama's not just stupid; He¬ís Jimmy Carter stupid¬Ē. - Don Imus)
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To: Graybeard58

Bought the wife a .38. She had a Colt .25, but it was so inaccurate, you literally had to be within 8’ to hit the target. The .38 is small enough for her hands, and it makes a very good CC weapon (slips into a jeans pocket and disappears). However, I’m also very comfortable with a Springfield XD in .357, but it’s too big for her hands.

So, the answer is, it all depends.


29 posted on 02/20/2010 7:26:27 AM PST by rstrahan
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To: mad_as_he$$
I am still stunned by the fact that the Genius of Browning designed a gun that EXACTLY fits my hands almost fifty years before I was born.

Amen. I have worked with numerous 'new' shooters who are having trouble achieving a proper grip with their new tupperware guns. I will let them grab my 1911 and the look on their face is really amusing. Even more so when I tell them the design dates back 100 years. Most of them now have one of Mr. Browning's gems. Ergonomics before there was such a thing.

30 posted on 02/20/2010 7:28:41 AM PST by 11Bush
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To: rstrahan
Bought the wife a .38. She had a Colt .25,

I mis spoke in my reply, I did own a .32 but I was remembering the .25 I had.

Couldn't hit anything with either of them.

31 posted on 02/20/2010 7:30:22 AM PST by Graybeard58 ("0bama's not just stupid; He¬ís Jimmy Carter stupid¬Ē. - Don Imus)
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To: Citizen Tom Paine

My Winchester Model 94, .32 Win Special is a great brush gun.


32 posted on 02/20/2010 7:43:59 AM PST by Renegade ("Bring it on while I still don't need glasses to shoot your eye out ")
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To: marktwain

Size doesn't matter!

33 posted on 02/20/2010 7:47:21 AM PST by spodefly (I have posted nothing but BTTT over 1000 times!!!)
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To: TC Rider; scoobysnak71
I've got my "Beretta Bite" mark as well. I don't shoot regularly and it was an embarrassing lesson on careful handling of smaller firearms with "man hands" - lol!

My wife and my mom are quite happy with the 2 guns I gave them, however.

34 posted on 02/20/2010 8:00:27 AM PST by Caipirabob (Communists... Socialists... Democrats...Traitors... Who can tell the difference?)
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To: Bean Counter
They may not make a .46 but they do make a 50 GI

http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/model1_50gi.shtml

looks like a 45 feels like a 45 but WOW

35 posted on 02/20/2010 8:03:49 AM PST by mouser (Run the rats out its the only chance we have)
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To: mouser

WOW! is right! Nice looking and I’d sure like to fire a couple of boxes of rounds.

Speaking of rounds, I’ve been waiting for months on a backorder of .45ACP; what are the odds of being able to pick up .50 caliber rounds in volume any time soon? And ammo prices are getting more stupid by the day.


36 posted on 02/20/2010 8:11:57 AM PST by Bean Counter (I keeps mah feathers numbered, for just such an emergency...)
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To: mad_as_he$$

***I am still stunned by the fact that the Genius of Browning designed a gun that EXACTLY fits my hands almost fifty years before I was born.***

The Browning Hi-Power! Fits my hands perfectly!
Then comes the Browning 1911 with a flat mainspring housing.
Czech 75 looks great but is too big for my hands!

As for revolvers, N-frame with small Pachmayer grips works perfectly! Way too many N-frames at home!

The one that bites in a Iver Johnson TP-22. Looks like a Walther but the slide will slice my hand each time I fire it.

I can even handle the N-frame.44 Mag S&W with small Pachmayer grips!

Same for Ruger DA revolvers.
My personal favorite is a Dan Wesson .357 with 4” barrel and small Pachmayer grips.


37 posted on 02/20/2010 8:37:44 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Retired, and loving livng on YOUR money! Keep it up!)
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To: Iron Munro

New York Injury Cases Blog
Posted at 5:55 AM on October 1, 2009 by John Hochfelder
Update on $4,500,000 Jury Verdict for Cop Who Shot Himself in Knee

We wrote about Detective Anderson Alexander back in December, here. He’s the former former New York City policeman who accidentally shot himself in the knee when a defective chair broke at his precinct house.

Don’t sit in a chair like this:

And definitely don’t sit in that chair with a gun like this in your belt:

Detective Alexander sued the city claiming that it was responsible for the broken chair (and that he was not responsible for the gun’s discharge). Alexander won and the jury awarded him $4,500,000.

We predicted that the city would appeal and that’s in the works now. The trial judge issued a short decision a few months after the verdict in which he stated that the damages award was reasonable. Just this week, the appellate court issued a brief order extending the city’s time to file its appellate briefs until November 13, 2009.

In the meantime, here is how the $4,500,000 damages verdict broke down:

* $1,500,000 for pain and suffering ($500,000 past - 7 years, $1,000,000 future - 30 years)
* $1,700,000 for future loss of earnings
* $1,060,000 for future loss of pension
* $250,000 for future medical expenses
* $38,00 for loss of annuity

Mr. Alexander took his verdict, was given a line of duty retirement by the police department and then he got out of town. He moved to South Carolina to work as a deputy sheriff supervising a courthouse metal detector. While we focus on these pages on pain and suffering damages analysis, one wonders whether it’s appropriate under the facts of this case for Alexander to recover $1,700,000 for future lost earnings (plus more than $1,000,000 for lost pension and annuity) in view of his claim that he was in constant pain and so disabled he could not resume work.

As to pain and suffering, if the liability verdict is upheld on appeal, the judges will address the reasonableness of the damages verdict for Alexander’s knee injury. Here are the cases that the court will likely look to for guidance in determining if $1,500,000 was a reasonable sum for Alexander’s pain and suffering:

* Urbina v. 26 Court Street Associates LLC : $2,200,000 ($700,000 past - 7 years, $1,500,000 future - 41 years) for a 31 year old man who fell and sustained an intra-articular patella fracture and a torn meniscus requiring three surgeries leaving him with a permanent limp [Urbina case discussed here]
* Smith v. Manhattan & Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority : $900,000 ($100,000 past - 6 years, $800,000 future) for a 43 year old woman who was injured boarding a bus and sustained torn menisci, a torn ligament and cartilage and a permanent osteochondral defect, requiring arthroscopic surgery with another to follow and a knee replacement possible [Smith case discussed here]
* Nassour v. City of New York : $1,500,000 ($500,000 past - 8 years, $1,000,000 future - 27 years) for a 42 year old man who fell and sustained torn meniscal cartilage, underwent arthroscopic surgery and a high tibial osteotomy and was left with permanent reflex sympathetic dystrophy (RSD)

We will report when the Alexander case is resolved and, if the liability verdict is upheld, we will see how the appellate court assesses pain and suffering damages and whether and to what extent the judges consider the cases discussed here.

http://www.newyorkinjurycasesblog.com/2009/10/articles/knee-injuries/update-on-4500000-jury-verdict-for-cop-who-shot-himself-in-knee/print.html


38 posted on 02/20/2010 8:44:40 AM PST by KeyLargo
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To: marktwain
Most Sigs, Glocks, and single stack 1911's are too thin in the grip for my hands. Even the trigger engagement dstance seems a 1/4" short.

I like my EAA 10mm. Then again, the Desert Eagle platform seems designed fro my over-sized paws. Too much to conceal though, and I'm not ready yet to scare the sheeple around here by attemptingto carry open (even if it is legal).

Still searching for a set of grips for my Mod 19 S&W that gives just a bit more palm swell for a Lefty. Currently using a set of Pachmyrs on that one.

To each their own I guess.

I did find a compact that fits and has excellent point. A little short on trigger distance, but I'd love to shoot one to see what I can do with it. Taurus PT-145 Millenium Pro. Not the 24/7 version.

39 posted on 02/20/2010 8:48:26 AM PST by Dead Corpse (III, Oathkeeper)
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To: HospiceNurse
You think 460 is high at 32 bucks a box do you? Bought a Weatherby 30-378 last fall. Ammo is $127 a box. Just bought a Redding Press and started reloading.

Twice in my life I have had blk bears come in on me front quarters down like a cat on a rabbit, ears going like crazy. Both times they were young males. First time, I was able to yell & wave bear off when it was less than 8 feet from me; second time, I shot the bear as he was angling in on me. Funny thing, I've never had to shoot a grizz, they have always moved on. Bottomline, the 460 has so much more knockdown than my 44's or 480; what I want to be shooting if my life possibly depends on it. I also just purchased a 5 inch 460 s&w; for the pull away.

The 44 hardly dented the pipe in, the 460 put quarter size holes in the steel.

40 posted on 02/20/2010 8:59:03 AM PST by Eska
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To: Bean Counter
Plenty of .45ACP here in MO from what I am told by a guy who has one he has no problem getting brass from manufacture he has more problem with primers but that is getting better
41 posted on 02/20/2010 9:03:06 AM PST by mouser (Run the rats out its the only chance we have)
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To: HospiceNurse
You think 460 is high at 32 bucks a box do you? Bought a Weatherby 30-378 last fall. Ammo is $127 a box. Just bought a Redding Press and started reloading.

Twice in my life I have had blk bears come in on me front quarters down like a cat on a rabbit, ears going like crazy. Both times they were young males. First time, I was able to yell & wave bear off when it was less than 8 feet from me; second time, I shot the bear as he was angling in on me. Funny thing, I've never had to shoot a grizz, they have always moved on. Bottomline, the 460 has so much more knockdown than my 44's or 480; what I want to be shooting if my life possibly depends on it. I also just purchased a 5 inch 460 s&w; for the pull away.

The 44 hardly dented the pipe in, the 460 put quarter size holes in the steel.

42 posted on 02/20/2010 9:04:41 AM PST by Eska
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To: marktwain

But, I got these tiny hands

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C89uOeDL9Gw

Would you turn your heads when I shoot?


43 posted on 02/20/2010 9:05:10 AM PST by Para-Ord.45
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To: 11Bush; rstrahan

So what do you recommend for a guy whose piano aptitude was limited by small, stubby hands; natural good aim; strong trunk, but weak arms; looking for adequate self-defense (not just to annoy someone); and not really needing to leave a hole in someone’s chest large enough to stick my arm through? (Disable, but not kill.)


44 posted on 02/20/2010 9:13:14 AM PST by dangus (Nah, I'm not really Jim Thompson, but I play him on FR.)
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To: spodefly
I have one of those North American Arms mini-revolvers, it's the smallest actual firearm in my collection. Here's the smallest "firearm-ish" thing in the collection, a Xythos 2mm pinfire flare gun:


45 posted on 02/20/2010 9:28:58 AM PST by GL of Sector 2814
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To: dangus

Hm, maybe the Colt .357 Magnum Python.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Python


46 posted on 02/20/2010 10:14:06 AM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Jeff Chandler

I’m with you. Give me a revolver any day.


47 posted on 02/20/2010 10:19:00 AM PST by Lancey Howard
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To: dangus

First I would suggest that you go to a local range that has a variety of handguns to rent and try out a selection to see what fits best. This is my standard answer to this question. There is no one size fits all standard. To me the 1911A1 drops in my hand and points at the target without my thinking about it. You may not find that is the case, though I doubt it.

Second, you should pick a caliber that will STOP the attacker (9mm minimum). Do not get something that will depend on perfect shot placement to get the job done (.380 or smaller). The smaller the caliber the easier to control, the heavier the weapon the less felt recoil, the perfect fit is somewhere in the middle depending on the individual. I’m not anticipating being attacked by a grizzly bear in the suburbs of Richmond so .45ACP is plenty of stopping power.

Third, you should practice, practice, and practice some more. In order to be effective with any weapon you will need to rely on instant action, something that is only going to be available with practice. If I can’t stop the attack with the 15 rounds I usually carry then I should have brought a rifle.

Finally, you should put the best lawyer you can afford on a retainer basis if you are only going to disable the attacker. Sure thing the wounded gremlin will try to sue you for pain and suffering. Dead men only leave one witness to the event. When forced to defend my life, or the life of another, it is not a matter of disabling the attacker. I shoot until the threat is eliminated. That means dead. There are hundreds of examples of the attacker taking multiple hits with various calibers and pressing the attack. Dead people are no threat. If you do not think you can kill, then you probably should not carry to begin with.


48 posted on 02/20/2010 10:19:22 AM PST by 11Bush
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
Czech 75 looks great but is too big for my hands!

Oh, great, now I'm looking at my hands thinking, "I must have man hands."

49 posted on 02/20/2010 11:56:52 AM PST by sockmonkey
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To: 11Bush

all sounds very sensible. thanks.


50 posted on 02/20/2010 11:58:24 AM PST by dangus (Nah, I'm not really Jim Thompson, but I play him on FR.)
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