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To: spetznaz
You make some good points, but some things need to be clarified. While it's true we did not face our Cold War foes directly, we (and Israel) have by proxy. Each conflict in which we and the Israelis have engaged in have been against Soviet/Russian equipment, doctorine, and tactics. Many have excused the outcomes as being due to the inferior performance of the opposition and that somehow, the Russians and Chinese would have been better. Well, it's still their training, trainers, and equipment. You'd have to make the leap of faith somehow their conscript forces are more trainable and superior. Hard to say, given the problems the Soviets had in Afghanistan. Also difficult to say what would have transpired if MacArthur had been unrestrained in Korea, though I have my theories.

It's true a pilot and his training can make all the difference. Our training and equipment has been superior in my lifetime. While the technology gap may close somewhat, I don't believe the training and capabilities ever will as long as we have an all volunteer armed forces. The biggest hurdle in US defense policy will always the the political will of the CiC.

Had we faced Russian forces in the Middle Eastern or European theater during the first Gulf War era, I'd say the outcome would have likely been the same, although our casualties would have been higher.

The old Soviet Union and China could only accomplish goals by numbers and engaging in brute force and attrition tactics, as evident in WWII and Korea. I have not seen much in a shift away from that doctorine, especially from the Chinese. The only thing that would change, in my opinion, would be the scale of equipment/personnel and escalation threat of unconventional weapons vs Russia or China.

Interesting you would use the Lamborghini/Audi comparison. How many of each are owned and why? Obviously, there is a cost factor, but if you polled the owners, it's more probable the reasons are due to other practical factors. If you took the cost factor away, I doubt it would change either owner's mind much for the same reasons.

You are correct in saying an F-16 or -18 had a different purpose in its initial design and folded well into the other roles. Conversely, it's unlikely an A-10 or old A-6 or A-4 would ever be a viable dogfighter.

However, the difference here is the F-35 has been, from the outset, developed as a multi-role aircraft. I think that's important to recognize.

To go back to your car analogy, I'd compare the 35 to a good SUV. No, it won't accelerate or corner like a sports car, but it'll still get you where your going plenty fast and even do so over rough terrain in bad weather. No, it can't carry a semi's load, but it'll carry more than a suitcase. It's probably most like an SUV because it's developed a bad reputation without validity. Some people just choose to hate it.

41 posted on 02/23/2010 7:40:43 AM PST by edpc (Those Lefties just ain't right)
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To: edpc
Great points.

On the performance of the Soviet/Chinese model ...I agree with what you said: had we faced the Soviets in a limited air-war prior to GW1, we would still have won ...just had more casualties than against the Iraqis. No argument there. To be quite straight I believe that the First Gulf War was an immense educational lesson for the Russians, the Chinese, and other upper-tier nations (like India) that had adhered to the central-command Soviet model. Those lessons can easily be seen in the way those forces have oriented their current military. Actually even in the Yugoslavia NATO action, one could notice some of those lessons starting to form ....for instance how the Yugoslavs were quite innovative in using decoys, microwaves and other cheap but effective tactics (the report of over a hundred APCs and Tanks destroyed, as well as several bridges, turned out to be far less in reality). The Indian, Russian and Chinese militaries have been taking measures to ensure that the routing of Iraq does not apply to them.

As for the F-35 ...I am sure it will be a great plane. It is just that it has experienced significant role creep. It has gone from being a 'lo' aircraft to the Raptor's 'hi,' to being the mainstay of the USAF, USN, and Marines. That might be a problem should a conflagration rise against a near-peer adversary. Does that mean we would lose the war? No, however the adversary doesn't need to win the war. Simply by hitting a hard enough blow, and letting 50% of the US population (the 'other side' of whatever political party is currently in the WH ...if it's a Dem then the 50% will be Republican, if it is a Republican then the 50% will be DUmmies) plus the media, and suddenly words like 'debacle' and 'quagmire' start coming up. The F-35 with F-22s is a great team ...however 187 Raptors is quite less than what was originally planned (and unlike the SeaWolf-to-Virginia 'cost cutting' measures, which is quite similar to the Raptor in that the SWolf was supposed to have 29 hulls, that were cut to 12, then to 3 ...raising the costs so much that the Virginia was incepted to be a 'cheaper' alternative, which ended up costing the same ...unlike that, the F-35 is not as capable as the Raptor).

Anyways, as for the SUV analogy you came up with ...I think it is perfect. Far better than my Audi vs Murcielago analogy. The 35 is the perfect truck, able to do everything (and do it quite well for that matter). The issue comes when it is track day, and the competition is showing up with Dodge Vipers. Suddenly that Lamborghini starts to look mighty attractive. Sure, in most days all one needs is the truck ...and track days will be few and far between (hence the need for far more F-35s than F-22s).

However 187 is a tad too few.

50 posted on 02/23/2010 1:56:19 PM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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