Skip to comments.A First Amendment Demonstration Tonight at John MacArthur's Church.. (For a Friend)
Posted on 03/04/2010 2:46:35 PM PST by stand_your_ground
A First Amendment Demonstration Tonight at John MacArthur's Church: 13248 Roscoe Blvd, Los Angeles, Ca 91352 3/4/2010 6:30 PM
Are we to be subject to Hitler? To Stalin?
"Now listen to this. It doesn't matter whether your ruler is Caesar, Herod, Pilate, Felix, Fetus, Agrippa, Stalin, Hitler, Winston Churchill, Bill Clinton, it doesn't matter who it is, he says be subject, you teach them to be subject." -- Pastor John MacArthur http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/56-23.htm
BIBLICAL THOUGHTS: Has God granted any soul the authority to command murder or rape? Never. John MacArthur's words are we must be subject to mass murderers. Must Christians obey mass murderers to murder the innocent?
Romans 13, "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers," KJ Bible. This is similar to Colossians 3:20 - "Children obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing to the Lord."
Every Soul includes civil leaders and parents. Parents have authority to issue only lawful commands - those laws in accordance with the will of God as summed up in Romans 13:10, Love is the fulfilling of the law. Children do not obey parents ordering them to murder. Yet the command is for children to obey ALL things commanded by their parents.
No parent is granted authority from God to command children to murder or rape.
No Civil magistrate (HE IS AN EVERY SOUL) is granted authority from God to command any subordinate to murder.
II Kings 11 is an excellent paradigm of proper disobedience to an unlawful command or tyrant. It is a Christ-like tutor's lesson leading one to proper behavior with an "Every Soul" relationship with Civil Magistrates
INTERNATIONAL LAW: Since John MacArthur's sermon teaches how to make ethical decisions under civil law - the Nuremberg trial's final results are instructive - The Allies summed up their Civil Decision thus:
1. Because you obeyed your civil magistrate, Adolph Hitler.
2. Because you obeyed your civil law and conducted genocide.
3. Because you did NOT disobey your civil magistrate, Adolph Hitler.
4. Because you did NOT disobey your civil law and conducted genocide: We the allies will try you, we will convict you and we will hang you.
We humbly petition John MacArthur to re-examine his position on this and we petition him to teach the Biblical meaning of Authority.
Wow! How wrong headed. He is an Obama supporter it sounds like. When it comes to obedience, if it is a clear violation of Gods law, I will not obey men’s law. What does he think the Christians in Rome did when the Church was exploding? why were they so prosecuted? Because they refused to follow the will of the leadership in Rome and followed Gods law instead! For this they were murdered in the most horrible methods imagined.
Can McArthur be this theologically shallow? Romans 13 is very carefully written and does not imply what McArthur is concluding. He sounds like “Pastor Billy Bob” who loves to do altar calls, but who has trouble reading carefully.
There is an enormous body of resistance theology that was written during and following the Reformation that he ought to be aware of. It is that body of theology that undergirded the American War for Independence and is making Calvinism attractive to highly educated Chinese. If the Chinese know the literature, why doesn’t McArthur?
Back when I listened to evangelical teachers, I thought MacArthur was a little “off” sometimes. Can you provide some background, while I go start supper?
Interesting, wonder what he’d have to say about Dietrich Bonhoeffer during WWII? Or from the OT, what about Rahab when she disobeyed authorities and hid the spies? Or the Apostles who continued to preach even though they were told not to?
It is hard for me to believe John Macarthur teaches that we are to obey lawful authorities when told to sin.
The classic Christian position is to obey except for sinning. Daniel is a prime example. A kidnapped subject of the king, he served him well, but refused to quit praying when the king ordered him to. God blesses him for this.
FIRST you obey God. Then, all other legitimate authorities.
Yes, the apostles said, right in Scripture, that they ought to obey God rather than men.
That is the standard. I have to believe Macarthur is being misunderstood on this one.
Problem with that Lib’s line of thought-—Obama’s 1st Oath (for what that is worth) is to the USA Constitution...
and that document gives rights and powers to the Indiv’s and to the states..........over the office of the POTUS
Then we should give the USA back to King George and the Brits...and reinstate the Nazis in Germany...since it was a violation of Romans 13 per this guy.
Someone didn’t pay attention to the sermon or it’s hearsay. John MacArthur is very solid. We obey authorities unless they command us to sin, then we are to refuse and take the consequences.
Everyone needs to go and read the entire sermon that MacArthur has at this link http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/56-23.htm .
MacArthur is right in saying that a Christian’s main purpose is to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We are to live our lives as an example of Jesus and if that is what we are instructed to do, then we are servants of The Almighty. And what does a servant do?
It is the author of this rant, Steve Klein, who is misrepresenting teaching i am sure. The Bible is easily show to interpret itself here, revealing that all such submission to earthly authority is conditional, that of being required except in INSTANCES when it require disobedience to God. Thus Jesus disobeyed the Pharisees, the apostles doing the same. And i am sure MacArthur is not adovacating a daughter having an abortion because her mother told her to, though if she gave into such pressure, the parents to compelled such are the far more culpable.
But too many conservatives use such for a pretext for anarchy.
Peter the Apostle wrote similarly in 1 Peter chapter 2 that we can silence those who criticize Christianity by our good citizenship. We are to live a righteous and a peaceable life so that the light of the gospel shines clearly through us. Christians have never been permitted to storm the castle, to revolt against the king, to kill the officials, to overtake the city hall, to defy the police, to disobey the law. That is all contrary to what the Bible teaches. No matter what the form of government, no matter what the style in which it works, we are called to respond to governmental authority.
There are only two exceptions to the universality of that command, just two. One is when government commands us to do what God forbids. Should government ever reach the point of invasion where it commands us to do that which God forbids, we cannot obey government. You remember Peter said that when they commanded him not to preach. He said we have to obey God, not men.
Secondly, we cannot do what God...what government commands us to do if God forbids us, and secondly, reversing it, we cannot do what government forbids us to do if God commands it. When they tell us to do what God told us not to do, when they tell us not to do what God commanded us to do, at that point we are disobedient. It may cost us our lives and we go to death realizing we go there in obedience to God. It may cost us our freedom and we go to prison realizing it has cost us our freedom.
Sure enough, the author here is a blatant false accuser of the brethren, or a false teacher. Either he posted this without reading enough to come to the below, which took me about 30, or he is a rebel who does not believe we are to obey the powers that be, except in instances when it would mean disobedience to God.
From the link: http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/56-23.htm .
“You say, “Are we ever to disobey?” Yes. There’s one occasion when we disobey, that is when they ask us what the Bible forbids us to do or when they ask us not to do what the Bible commands us to do. And the best illustration of that, as you know, is in Acts chapter 4. They told the Apostles not to preach. You remember they summoned them in Acts 4:18, commanded them not to speak or teach. Peter and John said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge.” You judge whether we obey you or God. “For we cannot stop speaking,” they said. Chapter 5, they flogged them, whipped them, verse 40, ordered them to speak no more. They went on their way from the presence of the council rejoicing they had been considered worthy to suffer and verse 42, every day in the temple from house to house they kept right on teaching, preaching Jesus as Christ.
Ping to 13 - what JM really says!
Who is Steve Klein? And why is he smearing pastors?
Thanks. I do not agree with MacArthur on everything, but he is overall a good teacher and one of the few that has some salt, and is a strong soldier in Christ Jesus.
I just send an email to the firstname.lastname@example.org, reproving him for his carelessness, or purposeful false accusation, or false teaching, whatever the case may be. Turns out he is a combat vet, which i deeply respect, and patriotic, and has his own site, http://www.altarorabolish.com/, but here it appears that he was trigger happy.
“Christians have never been permitted to storm the castle, to revolt against the king, to kill the officials, to overtake the city hall, to defy the police, to disobey the law.”
Still doesn’t amount to an undergraduate analysis o fthe issue. WHO ARE THE POWERS THAT BE? WHAT IS LAW?
Romans Paul tells us subtlely who the powers are - and it isn’t just some group of thugs who overtly or covertly take control of a people and call themselves the government or kings or, for that matter, “Fou Fou King of the Moon Calves.” There is an entire literature on this subject that the Reformers and the Founding generation knew. Apparently, we have regressed.
I guess this is where me and John part company.
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