I concur with its sentiment completely...
Posted on 03/05/2010 6:13:22 AM PST by marktwain
Police have a clear, simple response when it comes to what residents should do if they think they've been the victim of a burglary -- call 911.
Don't go in the house, and if you're already inside, get out, Bakersfield police Detective Blaine Craig said Thursday. Just call 911 and let officers deal with the situation.
South Bakersfield resident Raymond Michel arrived home with his wife and grandchildren Wednesday afternoon when his wife noticed signs that someone else had been in the house. Michel armed himself with a handgun, found the intruder holding a rifle in an upstairs bathroom and shot at him, police said.
Michel missed, but the intruder, identified by police as John Jenaro Garner, dropped to the floor and Michel held him at gunpoint until officers arrived. An arraignment for Garner, who was also wanted on a misdemeanor warrant, has been scheduled for Friday.
(Excerpt) Read more at bakersfield.com ...
I think the point may be that even though this guy did the right thing and successfully defended his home against an armed intruder by exercising his 2nd amendment rights, the police still want us to depend on them for our protection instead. After all, every second counts when the cops are minutes away, doncha know.
Warning shot? Maybe he didn’t want to be under investigation for murder. Which according to the article is a possibility if you shoot an intruder in your own home. Very sad.
“There’s an old Mexican proverb: when a man with a .45 faces a man with a rifle, the man with the pistol is a dead man....” (or something to that effect”...
—Ramon__
If this were Texas, that guy would be dead. At night, you can shoot an intruder in the back if he’s running away with your property in his hands.
That’s probably why we don’t have a lot of intruders down here.
I agree but I don’t live in California. If it was me i wouldn’t have taken the chance especially since this intruder was armed.
Warning shots are stupid. There's no control over where the bullet winds up. And they generally do nothing to end the situation, especially when the intruder himself is armed. In this case it worked, but that was pure luck, IMO.
*** In general, handgun -vs- rifle is not a situation you want to find yourself in. ***
In the close quarters of a house, wouldn’t a handgun be a better choice?
*** And you never want to fire and miss.
The dude is very lucky he’s still alive. ***
Totally agree there.
When seconds count, the police are only minutes away!
Cops hate having to type reports... all that spelling, grammar, and searching for the letter on the keyboard thingy...
Yep... 65000 up to 100000 (with OT) on average for a 2 year education...
And when an average Joe trys to protect himself... well that is a whole other paragraph to hunt and peck through
Agree I was just pointing out the possibility that it wasn’t a miss but maybe a warning shot instead. Stupid especially since the intruder was armed.
That’s exactly what I was thinking.
I concur with its sentiment completely...
George Phillips, an elderly man, from Meridian, Mississippi, was going up to bed, when his wife told him that he’d left the light on in the garden shed, which she could see from the bedroom window. George opened the back door to go turn off the light, but saw that there were people in the shed stealing things.
He phoned the police, who asked “Is someone in your house?”
He said “No,” but some people are breaking into my garden shed and stealing from me.
Then the police dispatcher said “All patrols are busy. You should lock your doors and an officer will be along when one is available..”
George said, “Okay.” He hung up the phone and counted to 30. Then he phoned the police again.
“Hello,I just called you a few seconds ago because there were people stealing things from my shed.. Well, you don’t have to worry about them now because I just shot and killed them both, the dogs are eating them right now” and he hung up.
Within five minutes, six Police Cars, a SWAT Team, a Helicopter, two Fire Trucks, a Paramedic, and an Ambulance showed up at the Phillips’ residence, and caught the burglars red-handed.
One of the Policemen said to George , “I thought you said that you’d shot them!”
George said, “I thought you said there was nobody available!”
While I agree with everything stated so far, I think that the advice from the police is not bad. If I were to come home and see evidence of a burglar, I would not go in and would call 911 and wait. I have nothing in my house worth going after a burglar.
If I and my family were home and a burgler tride to break in, that is a totally different thing. Watch out.
Come into my house and make the big mistake to attempt to rob me, cause danger to my wife, or our cats....and I will shoot you dead where you stand. No questions asked. Dead men tell no tales.
Leftist headline blunts impact of powerful 2nd Amendment story.
And what if you can’t “get away”?
I have three big dogs and a gun- the cops can document the mess when they get here. My husband is a cop and he says if a burglar breaks in, there had better be a body at the bottom of the stairs and it better not be me!
In general, the rifle will have a more energetic projectile, plus the length of the barrel makes off axix shots (misses) less likely than a pistol.
If you are in tight quarters or moving quickly, the pistol is easier to retain, but if a rifle barrel and pistol barrel are pointing towards each other, I’d rather have the rifle.
Agreed. When I bought my first handgun, I was instructed to never go looking for the intuder. You don’t know where in the house he is, and even if you do, there may be more than one who could get the drop on you from behind.
Advice: Call 911 (if possible), get on the far side of room away from the door (preferably behind the bed or a large piece of furniture) and train your weapon on the door about chest-high. If the perp opens the door, blast away.
I concur. Best not to go into your house if you think a burglar is inside.
LOL. Great response.
That deserves a “head slap” from Gibbs. You ALWAYS shot to neutralize the threat (center mass most likely to accomplish that), whether or not the “shootee” dies is not relevant.
As for warning shot, about 8” above the belt buckle works nicely.
Call 911 and die!
The cops need job security, too ya know!!
And the coroner and the guys who drive the meat wagons and the guys who make all that cool yellow tape they string up around crime and murder scenes and the forensics lab guys and the guys who produce the chalk they use to outline the bodies and...
You get the idea.
If I and my family were home and a burgler tride to break in, that is a totally different thing. Watch out.
Exactly right. All saber rattling aside about our rights, The advice in the excerpt is good advice. If you come home to an open front door and evidence of a burglary, there is no pressing 'need' to go in, armed. Call the police.
Arming ourselves is a decision to be used In the Gravest Extreme, not for walking brazenly into unnecessary risk and danger.
I'm armed and take it very seriously. I don't think I'd balk to use it if I were tested. But if I had a way to safely and prudently avoid it by slipping myself and my loved ones out first, I absolutely would.
I don't arm myself so I can choose to walk the most dangerous path. I arm myself so that I can help ensure my path is the safest one, for me.
Call 911 and die!
The cops need job security, too ya know!!
And the coroner and the guys who drive the meat wagons and the guys who make all that cool yellow tape they string up around crime and murder scenes and the forensics lab guys and the guys who produce the chalk they use to outline the bodies and...
You get the idea.
Thank God I am a Texan in Texas.
It is expected to kill anyone in your own home (or on your property) who threatens you will bodily harm or the theft of your property.
If you don’t, you simply are making a “catch and release” that will either come back to you or some other law abiding, hard working Texan to contend with.
Worse yet, if you even utter a discriminatory phrase, or bruise them in any manner, you can be robbed by both the original criminal AND his lawyer.
A “double tap” will insure that the prep will not bother anyone else and will also save the state big bucks in his upkeep and legal protection fees.
Criminals are animals and should be put down.
Sound too harsh?????? Get yourself robbed or violated and then come back and annotate your feelings.
I don’t arm myself so I can choose to walk the most dangerous path. I arm myself so that I can help ensure my path is the safest one, for me.
Well, said.
May I steal this?
Certainly, wherever it’ll help :~)
Well, I guess that’s your call.
But I have a sinking feeling that if you get involved an event as you describe, I don’t think it will go well for you. Even in Texas.
If he’s waited outside and shot at the guy as he left the house, the homeowner would have been arrested. Probably not best to enter the house if you’re not already in, but this guy should be lauded for having the brass to do so.
if im already in the house tho, he better pack a lunch...
side note...its amazing how LOUD simple barefooted steps across the hardwood floors are when somethin 'bumps' in the night...whether you manuver to check the noise or escape the house, the invader will be aware of movement too...
Nope, CA law is clear, you can shoot an armed(or unarmed if you fear for your life)intruder in CA, however he better be inside the house. The thing is some police chiefs, such as this Bakersfield idiot, don't care what the law says, so you are supposed to just surrender and let yourself be killed. Other counties, towns and cities don't have such stupid chiefs on the payroll. They should get this guy fired as soon as possible.
Well I am glad that CA law is better than this stupid article. :)
Well said !!
It does here, regularly.
A man here in Houston, caught two burglars robbing his neigbor's house. He went outside with his shotgun and told them to leave. They didn't. He blew them both away in the front yard.
No billed by the grand jury.
A man in Dallas caught a robber stealing his pickup. Confronted, the would-be robber ran away. The truck owner pulled his pistol out of the truck, chased him down the street and shot him dead.
No billed by the grand jury.
Stealin' ain't healthy in Texas. We like our property and we like our guns. And our government recognizes our right to use them, even in defense of property.
calex59, you’re spot on with regard to Cali law, which is that you can legally use force, including deadly force, to protect life or even from great bodily injury (eg, rape). But, I have to take issue with two things. Firstly, the person quoted in the article was a detective, not the chief, and he was merely being somewhat clumsy in trying to articulate that you can’t just kill someone for breaking into your house, or to protect property.
Second, no one was quoted saying that you should just surrender and allow yourself to be killed. Quite the contrary.
What the cops were saying was that “hey, if you think someone’s in the house, we would be perfectly happy to drive real fast, lights and sirens, to your house, and get the goblin out for you.” Speaking for myself, I’d be happy to take them up on that particular offer, if faced with the same situation as the victim in the story. He came home, with his family, and saw that the house had been broken in to. Seems to me, you have two options: leave your loved ones outside and hope there’s only one mope inside and go try to smoke him out yourself (many ways for this to go wrong) or, call the cops, and let them show up with basically the whole shift and a helicopter, and let them take out the trash. I like door no. 2 better.
If you want to let people waltz off with your possessions that is your business, don't try to foist it off on the rest of us.
That book is severely in need of being updated. The legal climate in these United States has changed dramatically since it was written. Concealed weapon laws and Castle Doctrine laws, in particular, have improved greatly. The legal ramifications, in most States, of shooting a bad guy are simply not what Ayoob described 30 years ago.
I think you might be right on that. I do think he paints an overly gloomy picture of what will happen in the days after shooting an intruder.
But I do think the mind exercise in it, thought process, making sure you’ve thought through all the ramifications ahead of time and developed a good sense for how to respond, is a good exercise.
He was writing in New England in the 1970s, taking worst-case scenarios from that, and universalizing them. That needs to be fixed. It needed to be fixed in the 1980s.
Where his writing is particular value (IMO) is stressing the need for mental preparedness, and the preferability of avoiding a fight. Those ideas really sunk in to my thick skull the first time I went out in the world with my shiny new Concealed Pistol License ... and a concealed pistol.
I agree :~)
Well, with all due respect, I don’t think you read the piece all that carefully.
“(the prosecutor)said people can use deadly force to protect themselves if they have a reasonable fear that a person will cause great bodily injury or death to themselves or someone else.”
The detective quoted supported that, by using some (poor) examples of the sorts of evidence that might make a self defense argument less compelling.
Neither of them said you shouldn’t defend yourself, at least in the article posted. If they had, I’d be agreeing with you.
While I don’t disagree with the substance of your point regarding castle doctrine laws, Cali isn’t one of those places. You use deadly force (legally, in Cali) to protect your property, you’ll be in a world of legal hurt. You wanna go that way, fine, that’s up to you. I’ll even raise a glass to your fighting spirit, but you’ll still be in the hoosgow.
You wanna go clear a house all by your lonesome? With your family waiting outside? Fine, go right ahead, but there’s a lot to consider. How about a layoff man outside? (Who’s going to protect your family waiting?) How about more than one guy inside? After you’ve cleared one room, and move to the next, how do you make sure that the area you just cleared stays that way (answer is, you can’t).
For myself, in the situation described, I’m a taxpayer, and I pay good money to have a bunch of guys standing by for this very purpose. Different situations call for different tactics. If this was an activer shooter and no time to waste, or some goblin dragging one of my kids off, or something, well, emergent, OK, fine, I’m going in hot, and fast. For a burg? When I know that everyone I care about is outside of the house? Fuggedaboudit.
FWIW, none of the above could fairly be described with the verb “to foist”. Perhaps “reasoned argument” would be a better description.
My opinion: Regardless of the law in CA an individual should be able to defend, not only their life, their property with deadly force. CA law does not allow for that, and I think it should. The Bakersfield idiot(whether sheriff or detective)should be fired. That’s it in a nutshell. Any opinion you have on the subject, if it differs from mine, will be disregarded and deleted.
the police still want us to depend on them for our protection “
The SCOTUS ruled that it is not the cops job to protect the public.
Relax, you had a couple of good points, so I responded...
But I would be very surprised if you could delete my posts. Go ahead, though, you won’t hurt my feelings.
FWIW, if you’re going to call someone an idiot who should be fired, it seems you ought to be able to specify a) who that idiot is (ie, the detective, the sheriff’s spokesman, the prosecutor, the reporter) and what he said (rather than what you thought he said) that qualifies him as an idiot, and deserving of being fired.
Every single law enforcment official quoted clearly stated that this was a case of self defense, based on the evidence they had. They should be fired for this?
The Sheriff’s spokesman and the city detective also said, “hey, if you arrive home, and think someone else may be in the house who isn’t supposed to be there, call us. We’ll come take the goblin away”. They should be fired for this?
No I don’t expect a response from you, and no, I don’t think you’re an idiot, just a hothead.
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