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What Do YOU Mean When You Say "Education"?
CanadaFreePress ^ | March 4, 2010 | Bruce Deitrick Price

Posted on 03/05/2010 12:59:51 PM PST by BruceDeitrickPrice

"One word. Two different worlds...

No wonder so little genuine communication—or progress—occurs in education

I had been writing about education for more than 25 years when I finally realized the divide, the scam, the silent sophistry, call it what you will, that renders so many discussions about education close to pointless.

When most people say the word “education,” they mean something very specific, and almost everyone knows exactly what it is: reading, writing, arithmetic, geography, to be followed by history, science, literature, and the arts.

Now, if everyone in the discussion has this meaning in mind, they can make progress.

Unfortunately, the people who control the public schools and shape most of the debate have another meaning in their minds, and they know exactly what it is: social engineering, indoctrination, political correctness, and left-wing politics...."

(Excerpt) Read more at canadafreepress.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Government; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: dumbingdown; education; socialism
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 03/05/2010 12:59:51 PM PST by BruceDeitrickPrice
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To: metmom

ping


2 posted on 03/05/2010 1:06:09 PM PST by christianhomeschoolmommaof3 (Proverbs 18:2 A fool has no delight in understanding but in expressing his own heart.)
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To: BruceDeitrickPrice

Marxism is our nation’s **most** serious threat. Schools ( especially government K-12 schools) are the Marxist’s **most** powerful and dangerous weapon.

Government schools **ARE** socialism!!! Socialism can NOT be reformed. It must be abolished!

Yet...I am appalled at how many conservatives fail to understand this.


3 posted on 03/05/2010 1:09:31 PM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid!)
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To: 2Jedismom; 6amgelsmama; AAABEST; aberaussie; adopt4Christ; Aggie Mama; agrace; AliVeritas; ...
This ping list is for articles of interest to homeschoolers. I hold both the Homeschool Ping List and the Another Reason to Homeschool Ping List. Please freepmail me to let me know if you would like to be added or removed from either list, or both.

The keyword for the FREE REPUBLIC HOMESCHOOLERS’ FORUM is frhf.


4 posted on 03/05/2010 1:14:10 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: christianhomeschoolmommaof3

One thing for sure, it’s not just stuffing kids heads full of facts by teaching for the test.

Education is also learning how to apply what you’ve learned and the public schools fall woefully short in that area.


5 posted on 03/05/2010 1:15:35 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: wintertime

Conservatives are learning faster than the government and public schools systems want them to. Let’s just hope they learn fast enough and get involved with their schools and demand the education you speak of. When parents see what the schools are doing to their children they should be very worried for their children. All parents should check the High Schools in their area. Find out what the graduation rate is and look at the final exams. Are the exams relavent to today? Watch the books the kids are issued, page through them. Are they teaching true history that they were taught or is it made up history? Are the kids learning the true history of the United States? If not, why not?


6 posted on 03/05/2010 1:16:47 PM PST by RC2
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To: BruceDeitrickPrice
Interesting article, but where did this line come from?

"Well, of course, if someone is plotting to murder the guy next door, of course, that someone will need to go out and buy some sort of weapon or poison. Of course."
7 posted on 03/05/2010 1:17:55 PM PST by chrisser (Starve the Monkeys!)
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To: wintertime

Keep in mind,

the socialists see homeschoolers as

as big of a threat as we see the socialists.

And right now, they have the guns of government to back them.


8 posted on 03/05/2010 1:18:25 PM PST by MrB (The difference between a humanist and a Satanist is that the latter knows who he's working for.)
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To: metmom

Education in a Christian homeschool should primarily focus on the fear and knowledge of God. Get that down, and you have the basis for all other learning.

Reading has been our #1 priority following Christian doctrine.


9 posted on 03/05/2010 1:20:15 PM PST by MrB (The difference between a humanist and a Satanist is that the latter knows who he's working for.)
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To: RC2
and get involved with their schools and demand the education you speak of.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Government schools ****ARE***** SOCIALISM!!!! Socialism can not be reformed!

Getting involved with NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT fix any government school!!!

Simply by attending children learn that government has the power to take money from their neighbor to pay for a service that their parents want tuition-free. This is an object lesson in taking their neighbor's money that goes on every day for 13 or more years! And...Their teachers teach them that it is their **RIGHT**!

Do this for day after day and year after year, and you will soon have an adult who worships government as a god that can give them things. Well? Gee! If government can give them tuition-free schooling, why not lots of other free stuff?

The following is from a post I just made earlier today. It applies here as well:

Government schools **are** the very definition of socialism. They have always been the very definition of socialism. Socialism can not be fixed.

That we have government schools at all is because the Utopian progressives of the 1800s lobbied for them. The Utopian progressives have **always** controlled teacher training and curriculum development. It continued in the late 1800s and early 1900s with Mann and Dewey. The gradual push has always been toward more and more atheistic secularism, a more and more permissive and liberal worldview, and, now, outright Marxism.

Simply by attending socialist-model, single-payer,government schools, children have learned ( from the mid-1800s onward) that government has the power to take money from their neighbor to pay for a socialist service that their parents want for tuition-free. And...Their teachers teach them that it is a **right**! Well...If the government can give tuition-free schooling, why not a thousand other wants and needs?

Within one to three generations ( my parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents) we had:

**the IRS
** the direct election of Senators
** the federal reserve
** Unions
** feminist movement
** One World fantasies in the form of the failed League of Nations, followed by the abominable U.N.
** FDR and his New Deal for four terms
** Lyndon Johnson's Great Society
** the abolishment of the gold standard
** and thousands of socialist programs and agencies

Government schools teach children to look to government as GOD. They have always pushed in the direction of secular atheism. They **are** socialism and they can not be fixed.

Government schools must be abolished if we are to save this nation. I **seriously** mean it.

10 posted on 03/05/2010 1:23:54 PM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid!)
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To: chrisser

That is a good question.


11 posted on 03/05/2010 1:26:38 PM PST by christianhomeschoolmommaof3 (Proverbs 18:2 A fool has no delight in understanding but in expressing his own heart.)
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To: BruceDeitrickPrice
Reading riting rithmetic taught to the tune of a hickory switch.
12 posted on 03/05/2010 1:27:20 PM PST by HuntsvilleTxVeteran ((B.?) Hussein (Obama?Soetoro?Dunham?) Change America Will Die From.)
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To: MrB

2nd Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge

The motto of our homeschool.


13 posted on 03/05/2010 1:28:35 PM PST by christianhomeschoolmommaof3 (Proverbs 18:2 A fool has no delight in understanding but in expressing his own heart.)
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To: BruceDeitrickPrice
The Protestants are merely reaping what they have sown.

They created the public school system in an attempt to de-Catholicize Catholics.

Now that the progressives have taken controls of the reins of public education, it's a bit late to complain that the progressive are attempting to de-Christianize Christians.

14 posted on 03/05/2010 1:54:16 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear (These fragments I have shored against my ruins)
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To: who_would_fardels_bear
The Protestants are merely reaping what they have sown.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That's how the Utopian progressives sold it to the bigoted Protestants. Oh those foolish, foolish Protestants!

Any government powerful enough to impose a watered down and generic Protestantism on Catholics is powerful enough to impose full-blown atheistic secularism them and make everyone pay for it.

15 posted on 03/05/2010 1:59:19 PM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid!)
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To: BruceDeitrickPrice
The following is excerpted from a series entitled, "Lessons on Liberty," by La Vaughn G. Lewis, Co-Editor, "Our Ageless Constitution" & "Rediscovering the Ideas of Liberty." The "Lesson" contrasts the Founders' Ideas of Liberty" to be taught to rising generations, with the Counterfeit Ideas being promoted in the so-called "public schools" of America for decades.

IDEAS OF LIBERTY:

(from America’s Founders and Presidents)

“The God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them.” (Jefferson - 1774)

“Statesmen may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone which can establish the principles upon which Freedom can securely stand.” (John Adams - 1775)

“The Sacred Rights of Mankind are not to be rummaged for among old parchments or musty records. They are written, as with a sunbeam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the Hand of the Divinity itself, and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power.” (Alexander Hamilton)

“Without God, there could be no American form of government, nor an American way of life. Recognition of the Supreme Being is the first and the most basic expression of Americanism. Thus the founding fathers saw it, and thus, with God’s help, it will continue to be.” (Dwight Eisenhower)

“The same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe, the belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state but from the hand of God.” (John F. Kennedy - 1961 Inaugural)

“…it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly implore His protection and favor….”(George Washington)

“Now the virtue which had been infused into the Constitution…and was to give it…the stability and duration to which it was destined, was no other than…those abstract principles…proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence—namely, the self-evident truths of the…unalienable rights of man…the…sovereignty of the people, always subordinate to a rule of right and wrong, and always responsible to the Supreme Ruler of the universe for the rightful exercise of that sovereign…power.” (John Quincy Adams, on the occasion of The Jubilee of the Constitution - 1839)

"Today, across our nation, we see consequences of decades of gross neglect and outright censorship of the Founders’ ideas from textbooks and from our public discourse. We have allowed counterfeit ideas to dominate the public square, and the Founders’ principles have been crowded out. Unwittingly, many teachers and other unknowing officials have participated in the agenda of an unelected mind-controlling elite whose tyrannical actions have robbed generations of Americans from reading or studying the ideas that made America free. Like termites, they have eroded our foundations as effectively as if they had burned the books. Yet, not once have they been willing to call it by its rightful name—censorship. Once, in America, stifling ideas about the Creator and Creator-endowed liberty was considered unthinkable. . . .

"The ideas of liberty must be passed on from generation to generation if liberty is to survive. These ideas, when they are allowed to be examined freely, will prevail, because their appeal is to reason and to the love for liberty that is deep in the human heart. John Adams warned: “The people of America now have the best opportunity and the greatest trust in their hands, that Providence ever committed to so small a number…if they betray their trust, their guilt will merit even greater punishment than other nations have suffered, and the indignation of Heaven.”

COUNTERFEIT IDEAS:

(from some of those whose views have dominated national educational policy)

“The idea of God is the keystone of a perverted society. The true root of liberty, equality and culture is atheism.” (Karl Marx)

Our thinking is enlightened “in the degree in which we cease to depend upon belief in the supernatural.” (John Dewey, father of ‘progressive education’ and 1st President of American Humanist Society)

“…democracy is a human faith and movement, unencumbered by supernatural preconceptions.” (John Childs, a protégé of John Dewey at Columbia)

“…the majority of our youth still hold the values of their parents, and if we do not alter this pattern, if we do not resocialize ourselves to accept change, our society may decay.” (John Goodlad, 1971 Report to President, Schooling for the Future)

“As in 1933, humanists still believe that traditional theism, especially a faith in the prayer-hearing God, who is assumed to love and care for persons, to hear and understand their prayers, and be able to do something about them, is an unproved and outmoded faith.” (Humanist Manifesto II, 1973)

“…the most important factor moving us toward a secular society has been the educational factor. Our schools may not teach Johnny to read properly, but the fact that Johnny is in school until he is sixteen tends to lead toward elimination of religious superstition.” (Paul Blanshard, The Humanist, March-April, 1976)

“It [the Nat’l. Education Association’s publication list] includes the delegitimizing of all authority save that of the state, the degradation of traditional morality and the encouragement of citizens in general and children in particular to despise the rules and customs that make their society a functional democracy. The NEA is drifting into exceedingly dangerous waters, and probably carrying more than a few teachers and pupils with it.” (Chester E. Finn, Jr., Ass’t. Sec. Of Education & Prof. Of Education & Public Policy, Vanderbilt Univ., 1982)

--------------

“Now, my countrymen, if you have been taught doctrines which conflict with the great landmarks of the Declaration of Independence…let me entreat you to come back. Return to the fountains whose waters spring close to the blood of the Revolution.” (Abraham Lincoln)

16 posted on 03/05/2010 2:03:28 PM PST by loveliberty2
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To: who_would_fardels_bear

“They created the public school system in an attempt to de-Catholicize Catholics.”

Unfortunately, too many of the kids in our parish attend public schools, and Father Greg (our priest) has been talking about this for some time now. My husband and I have noticed that the most active families within the parish are those who either have kids in the Catholic school of our parish or have had kids there in the past. My husband says that Father needs to emphasize this and point out that these kids are the future of our parish.

Father Greg also made the great point recently that sending kids to Catholic school or even homeschooling them doesn’t shelter them (as if that is a bad thing)...what is not normal is sending kids to an environment where sex, drugs, and bad behavior and expecting kids to deal with it in an effort to get them used to society at large.


17 posted on 03/05/2010 2:05:22 PM PST by Hoosier Catholic Momma (Arkansas resident of Hoosier upbringing--Yankee with a southern twang)
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To: wintertime

You are right and I saw this post on that other thread.

But you have to wonder where this guy has been if he’s only just discovering these things. It’s been that way from the beginning. I posted the following on the other thread as well.

http://nj.npri.org/nj98/05/prussian.htm

“Another development added to the growing furor and revolution in American education. In the early 1800’s, what is commonly known as the Ph.D. did not exist in the United States. Then a well connected American named Edward Everett went to Germany to take courses and returned to this country as the first American to receive a Ph.D. degree. Eventually, 10,000 of America’s wealthiest families would send their sons to obtain the Ph.D. in Prussian universities. Ultimately, this development would affect the educational and intellectual make up of the entire education system from kindergarten through college. These German trained Ph.D.’s took over the educational establishment in the United States and anchored themselves in positions of political and economic power and influence. The substance of the course work in Prussian universities in tandem with the educational philosophy tended to be socialist and collectivist in nature. Consequently, the knowledge and mind set of the Prussian system were passed on to several generations of American intellectuals.

“Implementation of the Prussian System Implementation of the Prussian system was to become the goal of Edward Everett, America’s first Ph.D. As Governor of Massachusetts, Everett had to deal with the problem of the influx of poor Irish Catholics into his state. In 1852, with the support of Horace Mann, another strong advocate of the Prussian model, Everett made the decision to adopt the Prussian system of education in Massachusetts. Unfortunately for the children and poor Irish Catholics of Massachusetts and elsewhere, the system produced a willing, cheap labor force with minimal reading and numbers skills. The Everetts of the world understood that people who could read and understand are dangerous because they are intellectually equipped to find out things for themselves, thus becoming a threat to already established power elites.

“Shortly after Everett and Mann collaborated to adopt the Prussian system, the Governor of New York set up the same method in 12 different New York schools on a trial basis. Incredibly, within two weeks he declared the system a total success and took control of the entire education system in the State of New York. In a “blitzkreig” action with no debate, public hearing, or citizen involvement, government forced schooling was on its way in America.”

Also here:

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm

more:

” Education is a social-engineering method of implementing control, based on “principles” derived from sociology and psychology. The educational system that dominates America, and virtually all the West had its origins in Prussia, the brain-child of the collectivist philosopher, Johann Gottlieb Fichte, who said, “The schools must fashion the person, and fashion him in such a way that he simply cannot will otherwise than what you wish him to will.”

“In the 1800’s there were no Phd programs in America and more than 10,000 of America’s wealthiest families sent their sons to Prussian universities to obtain a Phd There they learned the Prussian education system. America’s first Phd was Edward Everett, who, as Governor of Massachusetts, together with another Phd, Horace Mann, who is considered the father of American education, established the Prussian system of education in 1852 in Massachusetts. Under the influence of these men, the Prussian system was set up in New York shortly after, and subsequently throughout the entire country.”

http://usabig.com/iindv/articles_stand/revo_west/revolution6.php

Hank


18 posted on 03/05/2010 2:15:29 PM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: Hank Kerchief

Very very interesting.


19 posted on 03/05/2010 2:20:44 PM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid!)
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To: Hank Kerchief

But you have to wonder where this guy has been if he’s only just discovering these things.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Living under a rock?


20 posted on 03/05/2010 2:21:51 PM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid!)
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To: who_would_fardels_bear; wintertime

You guys have any sources for that?

I keep hearing it on FR but never heard it before.


21 posted on 03/05/2010 3:37:30 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
There is lots on the Internet. A good place to start would be to Google:

The Blaine Act and anti-Catholicism public schools.

Nativism anti-Catholicism public schools

History of Catholic schools public schools anti-catholicism

22 posted on 03/05/2010 3:48:40 PM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid!)
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To: metmom

Most Freepers know the difference between education and school.


23 posted on 03/05/2010 4:01:32 PM PST by Clintonfatigued (Liberal sacred cows make great hamburger)
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To: wintertime; who_would_fardels_bear; 2Jedismom; 6amgelsmama; AAABEST; aberaussie; Aggie Mama; ...

Those are pretty weak supports for your contention that the establishment of public education in the United States was for the purpose to *de-Catholicize Catholics*.

I’m calling BS on that whole conspiracy theory. Unless you can provide any substantial evidence to support that contention any more, I’m going to start hitting the abuse button every time I see someone trying to stir the Catholic Protestant pot by bringing up questionable events and accusations of things that happened over a century ago.

Implication and innuendo do not make a case.


24 posted on 03/05/2010 4:32:51 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom; wintertime
Here's a chapter of a book from Wake Forest:

Catholicism in 19th Century America

25 posted on 03/05/2010 4:45:10 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear (These fragments I have shored against my ruins)
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To: metmom
Here's a report on vouchers that touches on the anti-Catholicism present in the 19th century as it related to education:

A Mandate for Anti-Catholicism: The Blaine Amendment

26 posted on 03/05/2010 4:48:11 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear (These fragments I have shored against my ruins)
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To: metmom
Here is a protestant who was famous for inciting anti-Catholic fears:

Josiah Strong

27 posted on 03/05/2010 4:50:54 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear (These fragments I have shored against my ruins)
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To: who_would_fardels_bear; wintertime

It just talks about perception of what the Protestants were doing.

I still haven’t seen any evidence of some sort of conspiracy to *de-Catholicize Catholics*.

I found this statement in there.....”Following the program laid out by Horace Mann in the 1840’s, public education would inculcate a nondenominational Protestant morality through Bible reading, hymn singing and the use of the McGuffey readers.”

So what’s the problem with Bible reading and hymns? The Catholic church claims to have WRITTEN the Bible. Why should having Bible reading in schools be a problem?

That was over a century ago and there’s simply no point in dredging up unsubstantiated accusations. It does nothing but stir the pot and that we DON’T need.

My point still stands. There’s just not enough documentation or evidence to support the contention that there was a deliberate push to *de-Catholicize Catholics* and if I keep seeing that unsubstantiated accusation being made on FR, I’m hitting the abuse button.

I’m not going to see these homeschool threads turn into Catholic/Protestant flame wars.


28 posted on 03/05/2010 5:04:51 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
Why would you expect anything different to have happened?

Catholics were horrible to Protestants, Jews, and Moors when they were in charge.

Moors/Muslims were, and are, terrible to Jews and Christians when they were, and are, in charge.

Protest high church and low church were horrible to each other when either had the upperhand.

People are imperfect, and sometimes their imperfections, when magnified across populations, sum up to hideous crimes.

The secular humanists are now the dominant religion. They are forcing horrible choices on Christians and orthodox religious of all persuasions. Do we send our children to public schools where they will be indoctrinated into the vile silliness of modern culture, or do we spend large amounts of our over-taxed wages on private education? Or does one of the parents have to forego a career in order to properly homeschool the children?

No group, whether protestant, catholic, or secular should ever have been given the reins to government. Government should always be seen as the last desperate wall against anarchy. Everything else should be accomplished through the efforts of individuals and private organizations.

The Protestants were hegemonic at one point in American history. They took hold of the reins of government believing that they had hold of the truth, and no one would ever come after them to take away the reins.

It is an open question as to whether Protestantism is the closest approximation to the truth.

It is no longer an open question as to whether, after having built up and centralized the power of the state to define the education system, the Protestants lost hold of the reins.

29 posted on 03/05/2010 5:06:20 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear (These fragments I have shored against my ruins)
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To: metmom
"So what’s the problem with Bible reading and hymns?"

No problem with the Bible, per se, but there are differences between Protestant versions of the Bible and Catholic ones.

There are also differences between what parts to emphasize. This is also true of hymns which may reinforce Protestant dogma over Catholic dogma.

30 posted on 03/05/2010 5:09:50 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear (These fragments I have shored against my ruins)
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To: metmom
"I’m not going to see these homeschool threads turn into Catholic/Protestant flame wars."

If we can all agree that the public school system is, and will always remain, bankrupt then there is no need for a flame war.

If any of us, however, believes that the public school system can somehow be saved, then it is important to know how it came to be where it is today in order to know what needs to be done to fix it.

The lesson we should all learn from the history of public education in America is that no one religion/philosophy/ideology can be trusted to dictate what is taught in public schools.

Either public schools need to be completely abolished, or they need to be returned completely back to their separate localities so that, as George Bush I once said, a thousand points of light can shine for our under-educated children.

31 posted on 03/05/2010 5:15:17 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear (These fragments I have shored against my ruins)
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To: who_would_fardels_bear; wintertime
Catholics were horrible to Protestants, Jews, and Moors when they were in charge.

Can you say *Inquisition*? I knew you could.

It goes both ways. Catholics are not blameless in the horrible treatment department themselves. They can stop playing the martyr..

If someone wants to start feed Catholic/Protestant animosity, there's far better fuel than this to use.

32 posted on 03/05/2010 5:37:16 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
Horace Mann in the 1840’s, public education would inculcate a nondenominational Protestant morality through Bible reading, hymn singing and the use of the McGuffey readers.”
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The Blaine amendments were aimed squarely at Catholics and Catholic schools. Pierce vs. Society Sisters was aimed at eliminating Catholic schools. Thankfully for homeschoolers the state lost that fight.

http://www.blaineamendments.org/Intro/whatis.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierce_v._Society_of_Sisters

But...Government schools hurt ***Protestants*** as well as Catholics.

I am now a Protestant. I see “non-denominational” and read this as “watered-down” Protestantism....watered down so as to offend the fewest number of Protestants.

Right there with this “non-denominational” Protestantism, the Utopian progressives set the course for continually more and more secularism.

By the 1963, when I attended government high school for 11th and 12th grade, the curriculum in our school was entirely secular ( godless) in its worldview with 2 minutes of scripture study and the Lord's Prayer in the morning and a few Christmas carols at Christmans. Those few minutes of religiosity was like putting a band-aid on a pumping secular hemorrhage.

Today, Western Civilization is to survive Islam then our children **MUST** be thoroughly educated in their Christian or Jewish denomination. They must be strong in the faith of their fathers. That can only be fully accomplished in homeschool or in a church school of their denomination.

By the way, there is a very very very big difference between my education in government school and my Catholic education. Let me give you a few examples:

**Every hour we prayed for God's blessing on the next hour and the next section of studies.
**When we heard a fire engine or ambulance, all work was immediately stopped and we said a Hail Mary and Lord's Prayer ( Catholic version) for the people who needed help and for the safety of the police and firemen.
**We had a half hour of religious studies ( catechism) every morning.
**We studied the lives of the saints.
**Saying the rosary was regularly scheduled.
**In all of our courses,( even math and science) it was emphasized that all knowledge was a reflection of God's glory.
**The sayings and teaching of Catholic philosophers and religious leaders were woven throughout every subject.
** We learned enough Latin in elementary schools to understand the Mass, and learned to use the missal.
**We had important feast days off from school.
During lent we went to the “Station's of the Cross” on Friday afternoons.
**We were encouraged to go to daily mass before school.
**We practiced for May processions.
** The girls would blue uniforms with a light blue ribbon tie to honor Mary.
**The nun's patron saint day was a very important day, and so was the patron saint of the school.
**In high school an entire week was set aside for a religious “retreat” with prayer, Mass, and religious talks from leading religious leaders in the community.
** The girls had to have sleeves in their prom dresses, and our uniforms were mid-knee or lower.

Can you see the difference? I would expect that a truly Protestant education in a Christian school would have many of the same characteristics, except that the principles of their Protestant denomination would **thoroughly** integrated throughout the curriculum and entire day.

Not only would Catholic children suffer from attending government schools (that why John Neumann started the Catholic school system) but Protestant children did too. To accommodate the various sects of Protestantism a lot that was unique to a child's religious denomination had to be scrubbed if it was to be accepted by the various Protestant denominations.

With each passing decade the Utopian progressives pushed the government school to more and more secularism until now we have purely godless ( and Marxist) worldview taught in government schools.

May God save our nation and its children.

33 posted on 03/05/2010 6:08:16 PM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid!)
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To: BruceDeitrickPrice

The “Public School” is best understood as the Bus Ministry of the State Church of Marxist Humanism.

The very concept of “Public School” is absurd, unless, of course, you want a totalitarian state with subjects whose heads are filled with statist mush, ascribing all Faith and Fealty to the Omnipotent, Omniscient State.


34 posted on 03/05/2010 7:22:48 PM PST by Westbrook (Having more children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: metmom; wintertime; who_would_fardels_bear

I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school through grade nine. But, I married a Protestant in his church, and we don’t belong to a church now. So, I don’t have a horse in this race. ;-) This is the first I’ve ever heard a theory that public schools were created to convert non-Protestants to Protestant.

However, I have heard (from relatives) and read that the public schools in the old days put forth a Protestant view and were not Catholic-friendly. There was much controversy over the version of the Bible that was read. In the 19th century, there even were riots in Philadelphia between Protestants and Catholics over the Bible in public schools: http://www.hsp.org/default.aspx?id=1251

There was a lot of anti-Catholic sentiment back then following an influx of Catholic immigrants. My oldest aunt and uncle, who were children in the 1920’s, talked about the KKK marching through their neighborhood to protest the Catholics there. But, the whole movement probably had more to do with nativism than religion. The Protestants of Irish and English descent, who were already established here, weren’t happy when the Irish Catholics emigrated here en masse. Once the Irish Catholics were established, they didn’t want the other Catholics (Italian, etc.) here. And so on.

The reality was that different Catholics didn’t like each other, either. When the Irish Catholics opened their own school in our town, they would only allow Irish children in. So, then the next Catholic immigrants would open their own school and not admit anyone else. And so on. So, when I was a child, the Catholic churches and schools in our area each were devoted to a different ethnicity: there was a Catholic school for Irish children, another for Italians, another for Polish, and so on. Well, that’s free association... nothing wrong with it. :-)

Anyway, it was the Catholic vs. Protestant disagreement over the Bible that eventually led to an end to prayer in public school: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgerton_Bible_Case


35 posted on 03/05/2010 11:03:37 PM PST by Tired of Taxes (Dad, I will always think of you.)
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To: metmom; who_would_fardels_bear; wintertime
It might be good to have a forum based on these accusations separate from the homeschooling list. If this topic is critical to any one of you.

Are there any of us who would or would not homeschool if these allegations turn out to be true? It wouldn't make a difference in our household.

Government schooling is bankrupt - morally, socially and educationally. It brings about the exact opposite of its intended goal.

I like John Taylor Gatto's The Makers of Modern Schooling

But, I don't know that his history is absolutely true. It makes sense given the outcome - government indoctrinated media slaves who cannot think for themselves. But, the exact reason for government schooling can still be lost to history and the results of government bureaucratic instruction would still be the same.

Metmom has a valid point. This list is to support homeschooling and expose the lie of government schooling as effective. It does just that. Hijacking it serves what purpose?

36 posted on 03/06/2010 5:06:36 AM PST by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: metmom

I am on several AP lists and the teachers definitely teach to the test. The children learn very little. Videos are popular as are leftist documentaries.

Maths and computer sciences are the exception. There merit wins out at least at these levels.


37 posted on 03/06/2010 5:08:42 AM PST by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: RC2

What history do you teach?


38 posted on 03/06/2010 5:09:44 AM PST by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: 1010RD

I am not a teacher but I did teach my kids about this country and am now teaching my grandkids. When you ask your kids about certain aspects of our history and they tell you they never heard that, you need to start asking questions about the schools. Simply ask a high school student about our Founding Fathers. Who were they, what did they do and why? Ask them to tell you about the Federalist Papers. What are they, who wrote them? They will have no idea.


39 posted on 03/06/2010 7:33:58 AM PST by RC2
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To: 1010RD; who_would_fardels_bear; wintertime; Tired of Taxes

My whole contention is that the accusation that Protestants were out to de-Catholicize Catholics is without support, bigotry against Catholics notwithstanding.

If the Catholics perceived that that was the intent of the decision to include Bible reading and prayer in public schools, then no amount of convincing will change their minds.

And again, Catholics are not blameless in the persecution and bigotry department. It went both ways and still goes both ways. I’ve experienced myself, not real recently, but not that long ago.

I don’t see why there should be an issue with the Catholics about the *Protestant* Bible being used in public schools. The Catholic Bible itself contains every book the Protestant Bible does. There is nothing that those Catholic school children would hear from the Protestant Bible that they couldn’t read in their own, if they ever read it. The Catholic Church even claims to have written the Protestant Bible and takes credit even for its existence, so complaining about it being used is disingenuous.

The point I object to most about the whole issue, close to the objection of it being devisive, is that my understanding is that wintertime is neither Protestant nor Catholic and does not have a dog in that fight. There is no point in stirring the religious bigotry pot after over a century. It simply smacks of rabble rousing for no good reason.

FWIW, I was raised Catholic myself and have seen both sides of the issue. Both sides share blame and both sides could do better in making amends.


40 posted on 03/06/2010 10:21:36 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

By imposing government schooling on our nation’s children both the Protestant and Catholic children suffered.

Did you read my post about my Catholic education? I would expect that a Protestant Christian school would have many of the same elements but that they emphasis would be on their unique denomination’s philosophy.

It doubt that it was the King James scriptures or Protestant prayers that were included in a government school that were offensive to Catholics but what was omitted and even forbidden. In fact, what was omitted from the curriculum should have been offensive to Protestants as well!


41 posted on 03/06/2010 10:39:18 AM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid!)
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To: metmom
"and they know exactly what it is: social engineering, indoctrination, political correctness, and left-wing politics"

I was not trying to stir the pot. I was merely responding to this part of the original post.

Whenever a particular group grabs hold of the reins of government, they try to preach their particular world view. This is a perfectly logical thing to do to those in charge who have access to the truth, but when those people lose control over time, then it is a bit hypocritical to claim that the very institutions they helped to create are now being used against them.

A perfect analogy today is that most loathesome of organizations the "Department of Homeland Security". It was created by a supposedly conservative Republican administration to save us from jihad. But now that it is being run by the Democrats it is being used as a tool against a mythical rise in white supremacist hate groups, which according to the Democrats includes the Tea Party movement.

Conservatives need to stop creating lame institutions that end up being used against them. Conservative protestants created the public education system for whatever good reasons they had at the time. It is now devoid of utility. At least it took decades for this to happen, and provided some use before it became entirely abysmal.

The Dept. of Homeland Security has jumped the shark in record time.

One of the biggest criticisms of the Catholic Church is their having ever cared about worldly authority. All of the pain, suffering, and utter nonsense that resulted from fights over who would be Holy Roman Emporer was completely horrid.

Why would protestants want to recreate the same errors? Why do we even want the USA to be a "Christian Nation"? I would rather it be a constitutional republic whose citizens were mostly Christian. Mostly Christian because a free market based Democracy allows people to freely come to their own conclusions, and the best conclusion being a Christian one, it would make perfect sense if most people chose to be Christian.

But the protestants (and self-loathing Catholics) of today demand to repeat the errors of history: we need to fight jihad with jihad. We need to gain control of the reins of government to make sure that it is "good government". No child left behind. A cleaner and more wholesome NEA. A HUD agency that encourages home ownership. A Small Business Administration that doesn't support minority set-asides. A Medicare program that helps seniors pay for prescriptions. A Social Security program that is more market-oriented.

We need to flush all this well-intentioned nonsense down the toilet.

42 posted on 03/06/2010 11:03:53 AM PST by who_would_fardels_bear (These fragments I have shored against my ruins)
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To: metmom

I think it’s actually the other way around. Catholic schools were formed to properly catechize Catholic children who were being exposed daily to Protestant theology in public schools. When we were researching homeschooling this topic came up in numerous places.


43 posted on 03/06/2010 11:22:40 AM PST by constitutiongirl ("Nietzsche was stupid and abnormal."---Leo Tolstoy)
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To: constitutiongirl

Which is a whole different issue than the evil Protestants had this plan to de_Catholicize Catholics, and they lost control of it, and it backfired on them, and now they’re paying the price for it, so it’s all THEIR fault.


44 posted on 03/06/2010 1:51:29 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

I had never heard it the way it was presented in the post to which you responded.


45 posted on 03/06/2010 1:53:42 PM PST by constitutiongirl ("Nietzsche was stupid and abnormal."---Leo Tolstoy)
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To: RC2

Few AP US History kids have read Commonsense or even understood when they have read it.


46 posted on 03/06/2010 1:57:27 PM PST by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: metmom; who_would_fardels_bear; wintertime; Tired of Taxes

Couldn’t agree with you more, Metmom.

We need a united front and divisiveness is wasted energy among a people that agree on 80-90% of everything else. The real enemy isn’t here.

Vouchers are a first step and we’ve got Obama right where we want him on that one. It should be outreach to the urban Black community using the DC parents and kids denied a better education as a lever.

We can’t change history, so why debate it. It is a distraction and our energies are better spent electing conservatives and changing the game.


47 posted on 03/06/2010 1:59:53 PM PST by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: BruceDeitrickPrice
In the old days, education was defined according to three stages.

In the grammar stage, the child learns facts. He learns dates, rules, names, places. The end result is a child who knows things.

In the logic stage, the child learns how to analyze data using logic and reason. The end result is a young person who is able to have reasoned opinions.

In the rhetoric stage, the young person learns how to persuasively argue and present his well-reasoned opinions.

48 posted on 03/06/2010 2:10:14 PM PST by PapaBear3625 (Public healthcare looks like it will work as well as public housing did.)
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To: metmom; 1010RD
I agree that, as a group, we need to stick together on the issue of homeschooling and not allow differences to split us apart. I find the subject interesting, which is the reason I responded. If the subject is discussed, it should be discussed without the finger-pointing. Because either group could make a case that the blame lies with the other group.

I don’t see why there should be an issue with the Catholics about the *Protestant* Bible being used in public schools. The Catholic Bible itself contains every book the Protestant Bible does. There is nothing that those Catholic school children would hear from the Protestant Bible that they couldn’t read in their own, if they ever read it.

I guess the argument was over the books in the Catholic Bible that are not in the Bible used by Protestants. However, I noticed the books supposedly missing from the Protestant version are in the King James version owned by my husband. I don't claim to know much about the different versions of the Bible. But, the whole disagreement over the Bible in those days may have had more to do with American-born disliking the newcomers, and vice-versa. It probably was more of a cultural clash. JMHO.

49 posted on 03/06/2010 9:05:06 PM PST by Tired of Taxes (Dad, I will always think of you.)
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To: PapaBear3625

That’s exactly what should be done in the schools today.

Here’s the new formula. Skip step one entirely. No facts. Or as close to zero as the Education Establishment can manage.
Steps two and three are merged into something called Critical Thinking, where children who know nothing are encouraged to sit around discussing their opinions and feeling about all the things they don’t know anything about.
Step one is the crucial one. Foundational Knowledge. I write about this all the time. Start the facts early, don’t stop.
Bruce Price
Improve-Education.org


50 posted on 03/08/2010 12:15:40 PM PST by BruceDeitrickPrice (education reform)
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