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Chief exorcist Father Gabriele Amorth says Devil is in the Vatican
Times Online ^ | March 10, 2010 | Richard Owen

Posted on 03/10/2010 10:58:17 AM PST by camerongood210

Sex abuse scandals in the Roman Catholic Church are proof that that "the Devil is at work inside the Vatican", according to the Holy See's chief exorcist.

Father Gabriele Amorth, 85, who has been the Vatican's chief exorcist for 25 years and says he has dealt with 70,000 cases of demonic possession, said that the consequences of satanic infiltration included power struggles at the Vatican as well as "cardinals who do not believe in Jesus, and bishops who are linked to the Demon".

He added: "When one speaks of 'the smoke of Satan' [a phrase coined by Pope Paul VI in 1972] in the holy rooms, it is all true – including these latest stories of violence and paedophilia."

He claimed that another example of satanic behaviour was the Vatican "cover-up" over the deaths in 1998 of Alois Estermann, the then commander of the Swiss Guard, his wife and Corporal Cedric Tornay, a Swiss Guard, who were all found shot dead. "They covered up everything immediately," he said. "Here one sees the rot".

(Excerpt) Read more at timesonline.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: aloisestermann; cedrictornay; demon; demonic; demons; duplicate; emanuelaorlandi; enricodepedis; excocism; exorcism; exorcist; gabrielamorth; romancatholicism; vatican
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Sorry if this has already been posted. I didn't see anything like it posted.
1 posted on 03/10/2010 10:58:17 AM PST by camerongood210
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To: camerongood210

70,000 cases?

that’s 7 per day over 25 years


2 posted on 03/10/2010 10:59:39 AM PST by Mr. K (This administration IS WEARING OUT MY CAPSLOCK KEY!)
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To: camerongood210
.
We could use this guy over here — under the Capitol dome and in the White House.
3 posted on 03/10/2010 11:01:40 AM PST by Touch Not the Cat (You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory; it is better to perish than to live a slave)
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To: Mr. K

An exorcise in exorcism?


4 posted on 03/10/2010 11:02:28 AM PST by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: camerongood210

The devil came back in the 1960’s and been busy ever since.


5 posted on 03/10/2010 11:02:35 AM PST by edcoil (If I had 1 cent for every dollar the government saved, Bill Gates and I would be friends.)
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To: Touch Not the Cat

Baah, they’d toss out his smoking corpse in five minutes.


6 posted on 03/10/2010 11:03:50 AM PST by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: Touch Not the Cat

Ageed.
Satan is in the WORLD. Period.
Bagging Clerics is his first goal.


7 posted on 03/10/2010 11:04:45 AM PST by Marty62 (former Marty60)
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To: Marty62
Bagging Clerics is his first goal.

I think I might have to disagree with that. I think his first goal is to convince us he doesn't exist (although he may have already succeeded to some extent with our fellow man). Just like CS Lewis wrote in The Screwtape Letters, Satan's greatest achievement was convincing mankind he didn't exist.

8 posted on 03/10/2010 11:10:04 AM PST by camerongood210
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To: camerongood210

What does Romney have to do with the Devil at the Vatican? Romney has no chance in hell of being president, so why are you afraid of him? He is an extinct RINO. I also find it weird that I never see any of these special video boxes for Huckabee.


9 posted on 03/10/2010 11:11:50 AM PST by 999replies (Thune/Rubio 2012)
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To: camerongood210
"chief" exorcist?

That brings to mind a squad of lesser exorcists under his command.

70000 cases in 25 years is 7.6 per day, seven days a week, and not much time for anything else....

10 posted on 03/10/2010 11:12:10 AM PST by Izzy Dunne (Hello, I'm a TAGLINE virus. Please help me spread by copying me into YOUR tag line.)
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To: camerongood210

Well, this Times story distorts it a little bit, but of course there are problems in the Vatican. They were pretty widespread leading up to Vatican II and after, and they are still there.

Then again, there will always be some problems. With Jesus at the Last Supper, you might say that about 8% of the Apostles were possessed by Satan.


11 posted on 03/10/2010 11:12:52 AM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: 999replies
What does Romney have to do with the Devil at the Vatican?

That's an advertisement, not placed by the article poster.

12 posted on 03/10/2010 11:13:52 AM PST by Izzy Dunne (Hello, I'm a TAGLINE virus. Please help me spread by copying me into YOUR tag line.)
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To: camerongood210

“The devil [is] pure spirit, invisible. But he manifests himself with blasphemies and afflictions in the person he possesses. He can remain hidden, or speak in different languages, transform himself or appear to be agreeable.”


13 posted on 03/10/2010 11:14:43 AM PST by my_pointy_head_is_sharp (Oh no, not that Romney crap file again!)
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To: Mr. K

From comments at the link;
“For those questioning the number:

“Dealt with” is not the same as “performed an exorcism.” Every case where demonic possession is deemed a serious possibility is reviewed by a number of people — including physicians and psychiatrists — and he would have been one of the reviewers in some cases, and consulted for his advice in others.”


14 posted on 03/10/2010 11:15:57 AM PST by Dr. Bogus Pachysandra ( Ya can't pick up a turd by the clean end!)
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To: Mr. K

Maybe that’s 70,000 cases over his entire career, not just the 25 years at the Vatican. Also, what’s a case? Is a guy with 10 demons considered 10 cases?

Bottom line: he’s experienced, but maybe not smooth with statistics.


15 posted on 03/10/2010 11:16:54 AM PST by married21
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To: camerongood210
I see no reason why the Vatican wouldn’t be Satan;’s highest priority target. It was for his minions, the Communists, the Nazi’s, the secular humanists, and the useful idiots in the ranks of the Protestants. Satan’s first step is to get you to believe that he doesn’t exist. His second step is to get you to believe that God doesn’t exist.
16 posted on 03/10/2010 11:18:24 AM PST by Natural Law
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To: camerongood210

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Paul VI himself say that the Vatican was infested with the “smoke of Satan?”


17 posted on 03/10/2010 11:19:36 AM PST by Clemenza (Remember our Korean War Veterans)
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To: camerongood210

This guy hasn’t heard Mr. Camping of “Open Forum” and “Alameda Bible Fellowship”, who claims Satan was given control of the major Christian Churches (they were abandoned by the Holy Spirit - according to Camping) in 1988.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Camping

http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/01508.htm

To Camping’s followers, this story is like:
“So what’s new?!?!”


18 posted on 03/10/2010 11:19:51 AM PST by Wuli
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To: Izzy Dunne; camerongood210

Thanks for the info Izzy, I had no idea it was an ad placed by FR. Apologies to you camerongood210. No RINOS.


19 posted on 03/10/2010 11:22:34 AM PST by 999replies (Thune/Rubio 2012)
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To: camerongood210

“the Devil is at work inside the Vatican”

Of course. For centuries


20 posted on 03/10/2010 11:23:49 AM PST by rae4palin (islam is of the devil)
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To: camerongood210

a refreshingly frank admission that clerics are only human, and this is a battle every one of us must fight each day on this earth


21 posted on 03/10/2010 11:24:19 AM PST by Buckeye McFrog
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To: camerongood210

I believe it is a line from “The Advocates Devil”, when Al Pacino relates to Keanu Reeves.
“The Greatest trick in the World is that the Devil convinced everyone that he doesn’t exist” By then you know he is satan.


22 posted on 03/10/2010 11:26:15 AM PST by Marty62 (former Marty60)
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To: married21

“our name is legion”

Wow, in a single posession case you can exorcised a legion’s worth of demons. A roman legion = 4,500.


23 posted on 03/10/2010 11:26:26 AM PST by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed. So how could it be re-distributed?)
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To: 999replies
What does Romney have to do with the Devil at the Vatican? Romney has no chance in hell of being president, so why are you afraid of him? He is an extinct RINO. I also find it weird that I never see any of these special video boxes for Huckabee.

I didn't post that. My best guess is that it's automatically generated by FR when someone creates a thread.

24 posted on 03/10/2010 11:26:33 AM PST by camerongood210
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To: Izzy Dunne

Depends on if they go by the person or demon...like when Jesus cleansed the man of the Legion...those numbers could add up quick! :)


25 posted on 03/10/2010 11:29:58 AM PST by happinesswithoutpeace (Midnight! the outpost of advancing day!)
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To: allmendream

After that, I’d take the rest of the day off.


26 posted on 03/10/2010 11:30:09 AM PST by married21
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To: camerongood210

It is against the principality of darkness that we fight not the flesh. So it is appropriate to consider that demonic possession may indeed be the culprit.


27 posted on 03/10/2010 11:30:27 AM PST by BuckeyeTexan (Integrity, Honesty, Character, & Loyalty still matter)
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To: Izzy Dunne
70000 cases in 25 years is 7.6 per day, seven days a week, and not much time for anything else....

And who has to clean up all the vomit?

28 posted on 03/10/2010 11:35:45 AM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (We bury Democrats face down so that when they scratch, they get closer to home.)
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To: camerongood210

“Chief Exorcist” is a general label because of his age and experience and the fact that Fr. Amorth established the international group of Exorcists which he is only the entitled leader due to his retirement.

I believe he refers to all the cases he’s asked to assess - whether they are psychological in nature, etc. And he can “farm” them out to other exorcists. Also the cases begun by others with less relief are often brought to him as last resort. He also sees same individuals often over a length of time. Exorcisms can last for years sometimes - depending on many things.

Someone mentioned as seemingly odd that the Vatican has exorcists. Well, Christ began the Church’s exorcisms Himself and the Church continues what He taught and gave power to.

Some of the Vatican’s “hiding” could be more of just not advertising events in care for family members involved or cases still being investigated.

Otherwise, in today’s anti-Church bias, advertising every event would only add more fuel to the atheistic ranting fire. The present Pope is really getting the secular/atheistic forces’ guns in his face lately. Pray for him.


29 posted on 03/10/2010 11:36:53 AM PST by Kandy
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To: Wuli

I have listened to Camping a bit and came away thoroughly confused. Apparently he thinks he knows the exact date of Jesus’ return. What about scripture that says no man knows that? Well that only applied to the “church” age, not now.

Or something like that.


30 posted on 03/10/2010 11:37:08 AM PST by DManA
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To: Kandy

Does he speak for the Vatican? Or not?


31 posted on 03/10/2010 11:38:29 AM PST by DManA
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To: camerongood210

It he talking about Bernard Cardinal Law(less)?


32 posted on 03/10/2010 11:44:35 AM PST by MIchaelTArchangel (Before anyone complains about the term jerkwater, please open a dictionary.)
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To: camerongood210
Satan's greatest achievement was convincing mankind he didn't exist.

Yep. I'm amazed at how many people believe there is no hell "because a loving God wouldn't send anyone to hell", blah, blah, blah.
33 posted on 03/10/2010 11:58:01 AM PST by Overtaxed Patriot (Lock and load.)
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To: Marty62
The name of the movie was “The Devil’s Advocate”, like the expression.

The observation about Satan’s greatest trick is much older, first mentioned by CS Lewis.

34 posted on 03/10/2010 12:00:41 PM PST by ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY (It's the spending, Stupid!)
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To: Natural Law
I see no reason why the Vatican wouldn’t be Satan;’s highest priority target. It was for his minions, the Communists, the Nazi’s, the secular humanists, and the useful idiots in the ranks of the Protestants. Satan’s first step is to get you to believe that he doesn’t exist. His second step is to get you to believe that God doesn’t exist.

Study this ex-Catholic's website. Specifically, go to the articles section.

Mike Gendron
35 posted on 03/10/2010 12:02:52 PM PST by Overtaxed Patriot (Lock and load.)
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To: camerongood210

I know you did not post it, I already sent you an apology. Thanks


36 posted on 03/10/2010 12:08:26 PM PST by 999replies (Thune/Rubio 2012)
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To: edcoil

I thought he went down to Georgia


37 posted on 03/10/2010 12:14:13 PM PST by pissant (THE Conservative party: www.falconparty.com)
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To: Overtaxed Patriot
"Study this ex-Catholic's website."

No thank you. I have seen this failed Catholic's work before and disagree with his basic premise that Catholicism, like Islam, has fatal flaws.

My point that the Vatican is Satan's highest priority target is a defense of the Catholic Church, not an indictment of it. Satan sees the Catholic Church as his greatest obstacle on earth to displacing God. The participation of ungodly institutions and persons like communists, Nazi's, dictators, atheists, and secular humanists is understandable. What is most tragic is the willing participation in this undermining by those who call themselves Christians while attacking Christ's Church. The strife, friction and defocusing of all Christians involved in this assault on the Catholic Church does not serve God, but does serve Satan's agenda.

38 posted on 03/10/2010 12:36:29 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: 999replies

I know. I realized that a soon as I posted my return to you. No problem. It was just a misunderstanding.


39 posted on 03/10/2010 12:48:41 PM PST by camerongood210
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To: Natural Law
...What is most tragic is the willing participation in this undermining by those who call themselves Christians while attacking Christ's Church....

Agreed. As if any Christian is saved by his own grace and not His.

40 posted on 03/10/2010 1:35:58 PM PST by VRW Conspirator (Liberal vs. Conservative = The vision of man versus the nature of man.)
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To: Overtaxed Patriot

For your reading pleasure:

A Catholic Utterance

In a pamphlet entitled The Strength of the Mormon Position, the late Elder Orson F. Whitney, of the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, related the following incident under the heading “A Catholic Utterance”:

Many years ago a learned man, a member of the Roman Catholic Church, came to Utah and spoke from the stand of the Salt Lake Tabernacle. I became well-acquainted with him, and we conversed freely and frankly. A great scholar, with perhaps a dozen languages at his tongue’s end, he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy. One day he said to me: “You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don’t even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that’s all there is to it. The Protestants haven’t a leg to stand on. For, if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we have the apostolic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism’s attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days.”

(LeGrand Richards, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, p. 3)


41 posted on 03/10/2010 1:52:11 PM PST by nralife
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To: nralife
Many years ago a learned man, a member of the Roman Catholic Church... said to me: “You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don’t even know the strength of your own position...."

A conveniently anonymous "Roman Catholic scholar"; perhaps fabricated, for the sake of the anecdote? Heh, heh.

The truth of the matter is, the best Roman Catholic apologetic scholars (like Hilaire Belloc) regard John Calvin as the greatest of all "heresiarchs", and Calvinism as the most lively and effective of all "heresies". Mormonism, to the extent that Catholic apologists even consider the small Utah-centered religious sect, is generally regarded as a rather silly little theological absurdity; hardly worthy of the big guns of Roman Catholic apologetic scholarship.

42 posted on 03/10/2010 2:10:21 PM PST by Christian_Capitalist
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To: Christian_Capitalist
Thanks for your response.

"A conveniently anonymous "Roman Catholic scholar"; perhaps fabricated, for the sake of the anecdote? Heh, heh.

Perhaps, but I tend to doubt it. I've read a lot of what some would call anit-Mormon material over the years, and I've never seen the veracity of this "anecdote" challenged (sorry for the anecdote). I think you might be the first to do so! ;)

"The truth of the matter is, the best Roman Catholic apologetic scholars (like Hilaire Belloc) regard John Calvin as the greatest of all "heresiarchs", and Calvinism as the most lively and effective of all "heresies". Mormonism, to the extent that Catholic apologists even consider the small Utah-centered religious sect, is generally regarded as a rather silly little theological absurdity; hardly worthy of the big guns of Roman Catholic apologetic scholarship."

This I don't doubt. My aim in posting this wasn't to defend the LDS church, but to toss out some food for thought. You seem well read. What's your take on the substance of the either/or claim? Is it true the Protestants don't have a leg to stand on?

43 posted on 03/10/2010 3:26:19 PM PST by nralife
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To: Christian_Capitalist
"A conveniently anonymous "Roman Catholic scholar"; perhaps fabricated, for the sake of the anecdote? Heh, heh."

Your response sent me in search of the answer.

John M. Reiner. He spoke at the Tabernacle in SLC in 1898.

See the following post and the ensuing discussion for more information:

http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/16/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/

44 posted on 03/10/2010 6:11:55 PM PST by nralife
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To: nralife
Your response sent me in search of the answer. John M. Reiner. He spoke at the Tabernacle in SLC in 1898.

As reported by an autobiography written in 1930? Hmm. Well, I guess that's something, but I suppose I still consider it to be hearsay.

Still, I can see why a Roman Catholic apologist might take the position claimed; I just don't see any unique theological reason why a Roman Catholic would think that the Mormon position was particularly strong, as compared to any other of the (many) 19th Century "Restorationist" sects (i.e., why not the Campbellite "Disciples of Christ"/"Churches of Christ" Restorationist sects?), any of which deny the validity of a "continuing" Church as acknowledged by the Protestant Reformers (who saw their work as intended to "Reform" the Church, not to "Restore" a Church that had -- allegedly -- disappeared from the Earth).

And I suppose that takes me back to your immediately prior post (#43), to which I should probably now give some more thoughtful consideration. Thanks for the answers, and the questions!!

45 posted on 03/10/2010 6:43:40 PM PST by Christian_Capitalist
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
70000 cases in 25 years is 7.6 per day, seven days a week, and not much time for anything else.... Yeah, I noticed that too. Unless there were a couple of 10000 in one jobs out there. Maybe an 8 hr work day is all that is called for, but I would think it's really a 24/7 type of thing.
46 posted on 03/10/2010 6:48:40 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Christian_Capitalist
As reported by an autobiography written in 1930? Hmm. Well, I guess that's something, but I suppose I still consider it to be hearsay.

Not that it really matters, but scroll down through the thread to see some more corroborating evidence.

And I suppose that takes me back to your immediately prior post (#43), to which I should probably now give some more thoughtful consideration. Thanks for the answers, and the questions!!

You're welcome and thanks!

47 posted on 03/10/2010 6:57:14 PM PST by nralife
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To: Christian_Capitalist
Still, I can see why a Roman Catholic apologist might take the position claimed; I just don't see any unique theological reason why a Roman Catholic would think that the Mormon position was particularly strong, as compared to any other of the (many) 19th Century "Restorationist" sects

It comes down to priesthood authority. Either via apostolic succession (Catholics) or a restored priesthood (via visitation and the laying on of hands) in the latter days.

48 posted on 03/10/2010 7:01:44 PM PST by nralife
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To: nralife
This I don't doubt. My aim in posting this wasn't to defend the LDS church, but to toss out some food for thought. You seem well read. What's your take on the substance of the either/or claim? Is it true the Protestants don't have a leg to stand on?

Well, in the spirit of "food for thought", I'd say that one problem I have with the argument attributed to Mr. Reiner, is that he's only considering one aspect of the question, "What makes a continuing Church"?

Is it:

Reiner seems to be saying that if the Roman Catholic church can't prove their first claim (An unbroken succession of Leaders), then the Mormon claim to have "restored" the proper Leadership of the Church becomes the next, strongest alternative.

But I don't think that you can say that, until you first establish that an unbroken succession of Leaders is the key defining characteristic of a "continuing" Church, and that not only the Roman Catholics but that every Christian Church has lost such Succession (which the Eastern Orthodox, for example, might dispute on their own behalf; in addition, some Protestants -- such as some Anglicans -- do claim to be part of the Apostolic Succession of Bishops, just outside of Roman Communion). And speaking just as a Presbyterian, I might tend to place more weight on the latter two characteristics of a "continuing" Church, anyway.

So, there's a number of preliminary issues that need to be established as points of agreement or disagreement, before the main question being asked can even be answered. If'n that makes sense (hopefully I'm not rambling too much).

49 posted on 03/10/2010 7:03:51 PM PST by Christian_Capitalist
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To: nralife
It comes down to priesthood authority. Either via apostolic succession (Catholics) or a restored priesthood (via visitation and the laying on of hands) in the latter days.

Well, like I said in my #49, that's one aspect to consider, as a possibility; but wait, there's more!...

(See my #49)

50 posted on 03/10/2010 7:05:30 PM PST by Christian_Capitalist
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