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Wind power’s dirty secret: a carbon footprint
KVAL ^ | 3/12/10 | Anita Kissée KATU News and KATU.com Staff

Posted on 03/13/2010 2:25:42 PM PST by Clint Williams

PORTLAND, Ore. - In 10 years Oregon has handed out $1.3 billion in tax credits for renewable energy and conservation projects like wind power, but questions about why the state is spending so much on something that may have a hidden environmental drawback have been raised by some.

While wind power is touted as the cleanest and greenest renewable energy resource, Todd Wynn of the Cascade Policy Institute, a Portland-based libertarian think tank, says it’s not as clean as advocates claim.

He says it’s simply because the wind doesn’t blow all the time.

There has to be a backup source to power generated by wind at all times to ensure electricity flows to customers without interruption. The more wind power put on line, the more backup power is needed, and often it’s coal or natural gas.


Here in the Pacific Northwest, it’s hydroelectricity.

“So when the wind blows, the dams stop generating electricity, and when the wind stops, the dams continue to generate electricity,” said Wynn. “So, in fact, wind power is just offsetting another renewable energy source. It’s not necessarily offsetting any fossil fuel generation.”

Wynn says a Bonneville Power Administration staffer admitted to his think tank that wind does not reduce carbon emissions, but instead, creates them.

That’s because when wind blows, the dam - or fossil fuel - backs up. It doesn’t shut down, and it takes too long to start up.

It’s like a car stopped at a red light: The engine is still running, and just like the car, this “spinning reserve mode” as it’s called, consumes energy.


Doug Johnson with the BPA says wind power is exceeding all expectations in the amount of electricity it is creating, and according to Wynn, “We’re simply running out of hydro reserves in order to back this power up.”

According to BPA reports from 2008 and 2009, wind turbines generated so much more power than expected the system almost couldn’t handle it and began operating outside standards set by federal law.

BPA admitted it was at risk of running out of reserves and having a “wind-related reliability event” that would “negatively impact the reputation of wind power.”

With three times more wind power expected to flow down power lines within three years, the carbon footprint of using wind power may increase.

“Natural gas is probably the next best backup to hydro because those facilities can ramp up and down very quickly and move with the wind just like the hydro system,” said Johnson.

“Which would be, in fact, that they’re creating fossil fuel plants because they’re putting wind energy on the grid,” said Wynn.


But Johnson said people have to “remember (that) there is absolutely no carbon emission from the wind blowing.”

For now, the BPA sees wind not as a replacement for water but an enhancement to it. The BPA is also relying on new tools to better predict what the wind will do.

In Troutdale anemometers are used to transmit wind direction and speed, and the BPA schedules power by the half hour instead of by the hour. Soon, dispatchers will have screens with real-time wind generation data.

“The more we learn about wind behavior, the more you learn about what it’s going to do and schedule the amount of energy you expect as an output, the better you get and the fewer reserves you have to keep,” Johnson said.

Oregon is requiring that the largest utilities get one quarter of their electricity from renewable sources by 2025. For Washington, it’s 15 percent by 2020.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; US: Oregon; US: Washington
KEYWORDS: energy; wind; windpower

1 posted on 03/13/2010 2:25:42 PM PST by Clint Williams
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To: Feasor13; matt1234; Bosun; washingtoncon; Pavegunner72; cherry; aw93472; WeatherGuy; CBF; ...
Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket Say WA? Evergreen State ping

Quick link: WA State Board

FReepmail sionnsar if you want on or off this ping list.
Ping sionnsar if you see a Washington state related thread.
2 posted on 03/13/2010 2:29:33 PM PST by sionnsar (IranAzadi|5yst3m 0wn3d-it's N0t Y0ur5:SONY|Remember Neda Agha-Soltan|TV--it's NOT news you can trust)
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To: Clint Williams

I read an article once where an enviroloonie actually admitted that these eyesores are not only erected to provide a little electrical power but that they are also an “educational tool” to remind people about “global warming” and “saving da planet.” I’ve always suspected that all along. I wish I had bookmarked that thing. It’s rare when a leftwinger comes out and actually speaks the truth.


3 posted on 03/13/2010 2:29:53 PM PST by FlingWingFlyer (A proud American-American since 1949.)
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To: Clint Williams
Wynn says a Bonneville Power Administration staffer admitted to his think tank that wind does not reduce carbon emissions, but instead, creates them.

And this is a problem because ...???

Answer: Because Al Gore Tells Us So. And that is the only reason.

4 posted on 03/13/2010 2:30:07 PM PST by InterceptPoint
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To: Clint Williams
"In 10 years Oregon has handed out $1.3 billion in tax credits for renewable energy and conservation projects like wind power, but questions about why the state is spending so much on something that may have a hidden environmental drawback have been raised by some. "

You know, the amount of revenue that this particular tax credit cost Oregon - and other cities that have done the same - would have paid for health care for the indigent for a long, long time.

Money wasted on follies, fraud, and waste in the Government could surpass what prince oogah boogah wants to spend on healthcare.

Hell, just clean up medicare waste and fraud, and put that 13-million (or whatever this week's figure is) uninsureds on Medicare.

But see...they won't even consider such plans, which proves solidly that obamacare is NOT ABOUT HEALTHCARE...period.

The steadfast resistance to any sugguestions but their own, bogus, bill, shows they are up to "no good".

It is easy to give everyone everything they want...when someone else is doing the paying. What is hard - WHAT IT LEADERSHIP - is telling the freeloaders, "NO".

We need someone in Washington with the cajones to do just that.
5 posted on 03/13/2010 2:35:26 PM PST by FrankR (Those of us who love AMERICA far outnumber those who love obama - your choice.)
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To: All
Great article here from The American Thinker:

"Wind Energy''s Ghosts" by Andrew Walden

6 posted on 03/13/2010 2:38:48 PM PST by rlmorel (We are traveling "The Road to Serfdom".)
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To: Clint Williams; All

Anyone know where I might find good information on DIY home hydroelectric systems? I’ve seen a couple articles in Backwoods Home.


7 posted on 03/13/2010 2:56:54 PM PST by Ellendra (Can't starve us out, and you can't make us run. . . -Hank Jr.)
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To: FlingWingFlyer
It’s rare when a leftwinger comes out and actually speaks the truth.

Usually after consuming too much booze or weed.

8 posted on 03/13/2010 3:21:00 PM PST by reg45
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To: All

They are not even including the manufacture, shipping, or maintenance of these turbines to the carbon footprint. Actually the same is true with ethanol. Follow the money trail and there you will have the answer.


9 posted on 03/13/2010 3:27:19 PM PST by mrobisr
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To: Clint Williams

The jig is nearly up on windpower. It’s just a matter of stalling new construction a few years, running out the clock.

In five years no one is going to be building, and in ten years there will be government subsidies to dimantle the ‘eyesores’.


10 posted on 03/13/2010 3:58:56 PM PST by Balding_Eagle (If America falls, darkness will cover the face of the earth for a thousand years.)
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To: Clint Williams
Much of this new power goes directly south to California. The power grid going south is at capacity and most likely will be expanded to supply California with power. Oregon is giving out subsidies to companies that are producing power for California mostly.

Granted the wheat farmers love the money they get for having these wind farms on their property, but as the landscape is filling up with more and more windmills it is becoming an eyesore.

Plus we get another NG power plant as a bonus. /s

11 posted on 03/13/2010 5:38:23 PM PST by mickey finn
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To: Clint Williams
Another good link from a professional engineer this time... http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2010/03/03/wind-power-the-worst-kind-of-mirage.aspx

I think that the problem created by trying to add wind generated power into the grid is far worse yet than any of the most negative projections have suggested. I have worked around a lot of coal, nuclear and gas powered plants and the one observation that I can tell you is that plants work far better when their electrical production is even, predictable and slow to change either up or down. There is absolutely no question that the life of the vast majority of the equipment in these plants is sharply curtailed by such things as a regular and rapid fluctuation of heating and cooling, speeding up and slowing down, parts getting wet and then drying out, pressurization followed by depressurization, constant changes in PH levels etc etc etc. A lot of the fallout from constant changes can be lumped under the umbrella of one basic engineering fact of life concept.... fatigue (in whatever form is applicable). And this is just one area... I could rant for a long time on this subject about the stability of the rest of the infrastructure and the vast increase of sophistication that has been required to deal with all these unpredictable new electrical sources coming on and dropping off, the damage to the grid itself and so forth. It cannot do anything other than result in reduced overall reliability. As one of the other posters commented, we may very quickly see towers going up but may just as quickly see them coming down. As for me personally, my above comments are as a ratepayer... Frankly, the more idiocy that goes on that continues to wreck this system, the better it will be for my business. I really do believe that the introduction of wind plus the longterm impact that environmentalists have had in delaying new projects will ultimately result in a totally unreliable system....and with that in mind, we all should be taking steps to protect ourselves to the greatest extent we can.

12 posted on 03/13/2010 7:19:50 PM PST by Asfarastheeastisfromthewest... (“The urge to save humanity is almost always a false-face for the urge to rule it.”....Mencken)
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